Current Events Zoro vs King makes ZKK pointless

[Monkey D Theories]

After seeing the conclusion of Zoro vs King, I have come to the conclusion that there is no need for ZKK to happen because Zoro vs King fulfills everything that was supposedly promised by ZKK.

1. Zoro defeating King is a bigger feat than him merely killing kaido

If ZKK happens, zoro will kill a defeated kaido, likely by cheapshot. This is the truth and there is no way around it. Luffy is the one who is 1v1ing kaido and he is the one who will ultimately defeat kaido. As we know, King is much more durable than kaido. So then why is ZKK such an amazing feat when zoro did an arguably bigger feat when he beat king. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying beating king is a bigger feat than beating kaido, but zoro isn't defeating kaido, Luffy is. Kaido's neck is less durable than King's body, so why is cutting it such a big deal when zoro already did a better feat?

2. Zoro already gained his Ryuma-paralleling legend by defeating King

King is a lunarian. Lunarians are viewed as gods. Zoro defeated a god, which in turn will lead to zoro becoming known as the "sword god" in wano, just as ryuma. He already slayed a "dragon" above the skies of the flower capital, just as ZKKers said he would for years. What is the point in it happening again, but with a weakened and defeated kaido?

Here's the thing, Zoro just got his big moment. He just got a massive feat and he probably got a legend to his name as well. If ZKK happens, all it will do is take away a similar moment from Luffy. Luffy vs Kaido has been portrayed as a defining part of Luffy's dream. First time Kaido defeated Luffy, "what type of king are you again". Second time Kaido defeated Luffy, "seems like you couldn't be joyboy either". Since Luffy will be PK and will be Joyboy, he needs to defeat Kaido, and it makes no sense for Oda to undermine that defeat after giving the fight such buildup.

Zoro vs King held similar relevancy to zoro's dream. Lunarians are near invincible, moreso than kaido, and Zoro smacked king so hard he took king's wing off. This fight had callbacks to kuina and zoro's childhood. Callbacks to ushimaru and ryuma as well. This is the fight where Zoro tamed enma and mastered ACoC, easily making him one of the top 5 swordsmen in one piece. This fight completed zoro's arc in wano and if you want more from him, you really need to ask yourself if this is something the story needs or if it is something you personally want.

 

[Patryipe]

No.

 

[Halyup]

After seeing the conclusion of Zoro vs King, I have come to the conclusion that there is no need for ZKK to happen because Zoro vs King fulfills everything that was supposedly promised by ZKK.

1. Zoro defeating King is a bigger feat than him merely killing kaido

If ZKK happens, zoro will kill a defeated kaido, likely by cheapshot. This is the truth and there is no way around it. Luffy is the one who is 1v1ing kaido and he is the one who will ultimately defeat kaido. As we know, King is much more durable than kaido. So then why is ZKK such an amazing feat when zoro did an arguably bigger feat when he beat king. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying beating king is a bigger feat than beating kaido, but zoro isn't defeating kaido, Luffy is. Kaido's neck is less durable than King's body, so why is cutting it such a big deal when zoro already did a better feat?

2. Zoro already gained his Ryuma-paralleling legend by defeating King

King is a lunarian. Lunarians are viewed as gods. Zoro defeated a god, which in turn will lead to zoro becoming known as the "sword god" in wano, just as ryuma. He already slayed a "dragon" above the skies of the flower capital, just as ZKKers said he would for years. What is the point in it happening again, but with a weakened and defeated kaido?

Here's the thing, Zoro just got his big moment. He just got a massive feat and he probably got a legend to his name as well. If ZKK happens, all it will do is take away a similar moment from Luffy. Luffy vs Kaido has been portrayed as a defining part of Luffy's dream. First time Kaido defeated Luffy, "what type of king are you again". Second time Kaido defeated Luffy, "seems like you couldn't be joyboy either". Since Luffy will be PK and will be Joyboy, he needs to defeat Kaido, and it makes no sense for Oda to undermine that defeat after giving the fight such buildup.

Zoro vs King held similar relevancy to zoro's dream. Lunarians are near invincible, moreso than kaido, and Zoro smacked king so hard he took king's wing off. This fight had callbacks to kuina and zoro's childhood. Callbacks to ushimaru and ryuma as well. This is the fight where Zoro tamed enma and mastered ACoC, easily making him one of the top 5 swordsmen in one piece. This fight completed zoro's arc in wano and if you want more from him, you really need to ask yourself if this is something the story needs or if it is something you personally want.

He aint killin a defeated Kaido
Zoro will kill awakened Kaido

Ryuuma parallel needs to happen when wano citizens is aware of the battle

 

[Zowo]

no black blade

job is not done
kaido dies

 

[Lor D. Coast]

No different then when Oda was just joking about Zoro having CoC and Kaido not knowing what CoC is.
Enma is turning black in this arc, nidai in the next and Wado against Mihawk.

 

[ShadyOjiro]

He didn't get the Ryuma /sword God pararell pal.
Like be honest does this defeat is something that will start a legend? It's the god of a whole country mate

Another answer to deny zkk would simply be Oda has no interest in making Zoro the next Ryuma or sword God.

Personally once SHs leave Wano ppl must have the believe Zoro is the second coming of Ryuma or something otherwise it will never happen cuz I doubt finding out Zoro achievements through newspapers will form a legend.

Indifferent for ZKK here but not so indifferent to sword God stuff.

 

[Malio]

WG can not stop the ZKK train, so go and tell Oda that, he is the conductor.

 

[Cinera]

After seeing the conclusion of Zoro vs King, I have come to the conclusion that there is no need for ZKK to happen because Zoro vs King fulfills everything that was supposedly promised by ZKK.

1. Zoro defeating King is a bigger feat than him merely killing kaido

If ZKK happens, zoro will kill a defeated kaido, likely by cheapshot. This is the truth and there is no way around it. Luffy is the one who is 1v1ing kaido and he is the one who will ultimately defeat kaido. As we know, King is much more durable than kaido. So then why is ZKK such an amazing feat when zoro did an arguably bigger feat when he beat king. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying beating king is a bigger feat than beating kaido, but zoro isn't defeating kaido, Luffy is. Kaido's neck is less durable than King's body, so why is cutting it such a big deal when zoro already did a better feat?

2. Zoro already gained his Ryuma-paralleling legend by defeating King

King is a lunarian. Lunarians are viewed as gods. Zoro defeated a god, which in turn will lead to zoro becoming known as the "sword god" in wano, just as ryuma. He already slayed a "dragon" above the skies of the flower capital, just as ZKKers said he would for years. What is the point in it happening again, but with a weakened and defeated kaido?

Here's the thing, Zoro just got his big moment. He just got a massive feat and he probably got a legend to his name as well. If ZKK happens, all it will do is take away a similar moment from Luffy. Luffy vs Kaido has been portrayed as a defining part of Luffy's dream. First time Kaido defeated Luffy, "what type of king are you again". Second time Kaido defeated Luffy, "seems like you couldn't be joyboy either". Since Luffy will be PK and will be Joyboy, he needs to defeat Kaido, and it makes no sense for Oda to undermine that defeat after giving the fight such buildup.

Zoro vs King held similar relevancy to zoro's dream. Lunarians are near invincible, moreso than kaido, and Zoro smacked king so hard he took king's wing off. This fight had callbacks to kuina and zoro's childhood. Callbacks to ushimaru and ryuma as well. This is the fight where Zoro tamed enma and mastered ACoC, easily making him one of the top 5 swordsmen in one piece. This fight completed zoro's arc in wano and if you want more from him, you really need to ask yourself if this is something the story needs or if it is something you personally want.

This is a complete misunderstanding of ZKK. ZKK was never about Zoro getting an epic combat feat.

I addressed this adequately in another thread, so I'll just quote myself here:

As I said in the spoilers thread, this is in no way (and cannot be) a substitute for Zoro replicating Ryuma's legend.


It flat out isn't a Ryuma parallel:

1. Cutting a fire dragon attack is NOT the same thing as beheading an actual dragon.
2. The scene did not take place over the Flower Capital.
3. None of Wano's citizens was there to witness it.
   • So no new legend of a Sword God can be formed.
   • Nor can the resemblance to Ryuma's legend be noticed.
4. The technique that Zoro used was not Hiryuu Kaen.
   • Hiryuu Kaen is what Zoro used to defeat Ryuma.
   • The technique that Ryuma used to behead the Flying Dragon had a similar stance/form to Hiryuu Kaen.
   • The Hiryuu Kaen that missed on the Onigashima Rooftop still needs to be addressed.
5. The scene is meaningless.
   • King is not the source of Wano's misery.
   • Slaying King is not the unfulfilled will of Oden.
   • Zoro did not save anyone (other than himself) by slaying King's magma dragon.
   • This was just a cool scene with no actual deeper meaning.

Zoro cutting King's Fire Dragon attack may be foreshadowing for ZKK, or it may have no real meaning. Whichever the case though, it's definitely not a Ryuma parallel.

Really, one must be completely clueless about ZKK to think that slaying King's magma dragon is a suitable substitute.


Honestly, it's vexing that people who don't believe in ZKK clutch on to any small thing to cry out that ZKK is dead. I don't care if you believe in ZKK or not, and I'm no longer trying to persuade anyone of it.

But claiming that a scene like this is meant to be a substitute for ZKK is just flat out disingenous.

In order for the Zoro vs King finale to be a substitute for ZKK then:

1. It should have happened over the Flower Capital.
   • To better replicate Ryuma's legend.
2. It should have been witnessed by the people of Wanokuni.
   • So that a new legend could actually be formed.
   • And the similarities to Ryuma's own legend should have been commented on by the people of Wano.
3. King's magma dragon should have been used in an attempt to destroy the capital.
   • So that Zoro cutting King's dragon was actually saving the Capital.
   • Ryuma didn't just cut a dragon for shits and giggles. He cut a dragon to save the capital. If Zoro is replicating Ryuma's legend, he needs to actually save the capital as well.

Those three things are the bare minimum for this to be a credible substitute for ZKK. You only think that what happened is a substitute for ZKK because you don't actually understand what ZKK is about in the first place.

(If Oda does the first two in the next chapter, then I would seriously reconsider ZKK, but if not, then it remains a compelling possibility).


Furthermore, this plot thread still hasn't been resolved:

Spoiler

The connection between Zoro and Oden (more specifically, how Zoro measures up to Oden) was brought up again in 1033:

Spoiler

So Oda has clearly not forgotten that Zoro now bears Oden's sword. Through Zoro he's comparing the two of them.

So we're left with a situation where:

1. Zoro still needs to prove himself to be a samurai of Oden's caliber.
2. Kaido still needs to acknowledge the existence of a second monster samurai.

A second confrontation between Zoro and Kaido ties the two together.

 

[Adamxero]

ZKK happened and the salty Z boys won't accept it.

It's not Zoro's role to be the one seen defeating Kaido. That's Luffy's job.

 

[Cinera]

This is a complete misunderstanding of ZKK. ZKK was never about Zoro getting an epic combat feat.

I addressed this adequately in another thread, so I'll just quote myself here:



I'm order for the Zoro vs King finale to be a substitute for ZKK then:

1. It should have happened over the Flower Capital.
   • To better replicate Ryuma's legend.
2. It should have been witnessed by the people of Wanokuni.
   • So that a new legend could actually be formed.
   • And the similarities to Ryuma's own legend should have been commented on by the people of Wano.
3. King's magma dragon should have been used in an attempt to destroy the capital.
   • So that Zoro cutting King's dragon was actually saving the Capital.
   • Ryuma didn't just cut a dragon for shits and giggles. He cut a dragon to save the capital. If Zoro is replicating Ryuma's legend, he needs to actually save the capital as well.

Those three things are the bare minimum for this to be a credible substitute for ZKK. You only think that what happened is a substitute for ZKK because you don't actually understand what ZKK is about in the first place.


BTW, this plot thread still hasn't been resolved:

Spoiler

The connection between Zoro and Oden (more specifically, how Zoro measures up to Oden) was brought up again in 1033:

Spoiler

So Oda has clearly not forgotten that Zoro now bears Oden's sword. Through Zoro he's comparing the two of them.

So we're left with a situation where:

1. Zoro still needs to prove himself to be a samurai of Oden's caliber.
2. Kaido still needs to acknowledge the existence of a second monster samurai.

A second confrontation between Zoro and Kaido ties the two together.

@Den_Den_Mushi, @KiriNigiri.

@Garp the Fist, @Nidai_Kitetsu.

I'd like you guys to read the entire thing, but I'm curious what you think about Oda further reinforcing the connection between Zoro and Kaido with this scene:

Is it evidence that he has not yet discarded the Monster Samurai plot line?

Spoiler

 

[HA001]

ZKK happened and the salty Z boys won't accept it.

It's not Zoro's role to be the one seen defeating Kaido. That's Luffy's job.

That's fine. Zkk isn't merely koing kaido for 5 mins
It's killing him for good.

 

[Halyup]

ZKK happened and the salty Z boys won't accept it.

It's not Zoro's role to be the one seen defeating Kaido. That's Luffy's job.

Its clearly Zoro's role to permanently end Kaido
Hes the only 1 that can

 

[Monkey D Theories]

This is a complete misunderstanding of ZKK. ZKK was never about Zoro getting an epic combat feat.

I addressed this adequately in another thread, so I'll just quote myself here:



I'm order for the Zoro vs King finale to be a substitute for ZKK then:

1. It should have happened over the Flower Capital.
   • To better replicate Ryuma's legend.
2. It should have been witnessed by the people of Wanokuni.
   • So that a new legend could actually be formed.
   • And the similarities to Ryuma's own legend should have been commented on by the people of Wano.
3. King's magma dragon should have been used in an attempt to destroy the capital.
   • So that Zoro cutting King's dragon was actually saving the Capital.
   • Ryuma didn't just cut a dragon for shits and giggles. He cut a dragon to save the capital. If Zoro is replicating Ryuma's legend, he needs to actually save the capital as well.

Those three things are the bare minimum for this to be a credible substitute for ZKK. You only think that what happened is a substitute for ZKK because you don't actually understand what ZKK is about in the first place.

(If Oda does the first two in the next chapter, then I would seriously reconsider ZKK, but if not, then it remains a compelling possibility).


Furthermore, this plot thread still hasn't been resolved:

Spoiler

The connection between Zoro and Oden (more specifically, how Zoro measures up to Oden) was brought up again in 1033:

Spoiler

So Oda has clearly not forgotten that Zoro now bears Oden's sword. Through Zoro he's comparing the two of them.

So we're left with a situation where:

1. Zoro still needs to prove himself to be a samurai of Oden's caliber.
2. Kaido still needs to acknowledge the existence of a second monster samurai.

A second confrontation between Zoro and Kaido ties the two together.

So I think you have good points and argue for ZKK in a far more compelling way than most people. Its just that my biggest issue with this theory is that it seems to elevate Zoro above Luffy, and this isn't about powerscaling.
How does Luffy prove that he is going to be the next pirate king and the next joyboy if he doesn't defeat kaido? Kaido is an emperor and to be pirate king, Luffy needs to surpass him. Plain and simple. If Luffy fails to beat kaido yet again, then wouldn't kaido be right? That Luffy isn't Roger or Joyboy?

I just fail to see how the ryuma parallel is so important that Oda would sacrifice all the Luffy vs Kaido build up just for that. Its always been Luffy vs kaido. Luffy was the one who faced off against him in act 1, Luffy was the first one to damage kaido, Luffy was the one kaido directly compared to Oden. Luffy is the guy currently 1v1ing him that everyone(zoro included) expects to beat kaido.

I genuinely want to know how ZKK can happen and not undermine what I just described.

 

[Halyup]

Its simple
Luffy will defeat Bigmom this arc ( Bigmom have plot with Robin )

So I think you have good points and argue for ZKK in a far more compelling way than most people. Its just that my biggest issue with this theory is that it seems to elevate Zoro above Luffy, and this isn't about powerscaling.
How does Luffy prove that he is going to be the next pirate king and the next joyboy if he doesn't defeat kaido? Kaido is an emperor and to be pirate king, Luffy needs to surpass him. Plain and simple. If Luffy fails to beat kaido yet again, then wouldn't kaido be right? That Luffy isn't Roger or Joyboy?

I just fail to see how the ryuma parallel is so important that Oda would sacrifice all the Luffy vs Kaido build up just for that. Its always been Luffy vs kaido. Luffy was the one who faced off against him in act 1, Luffy was the first one to damage kaido, Luffy was the one kaido directly compared to Oden. Luffy is the guy currently 1v1ing him that everyone(zoro included) expects to beat kaido.

I genuinely want to know how ZKK can happen and not undermine what I just described.

 

[yorosenpai]

So I think you have good points and argue for ZKK in a far more compelling way than most people. Its just that my biggest issue with this theory is that it seems to elevate Zoro above Luffy, and this isn't about powerscaling.
How does Luffy prove that he is going to be the next pirate king and the next joyboy if he doesn't defeat kaido? Kaido is an emperor and to be pirate king, Luffy needs to surpass him. Plain and simple. If Luffy fails to beat kaido yet again, then wouldn't kaido be right? That Luffy isn't Roger or Joyboy?

I just fail to see how the ryuma parallel is so important that Oda would sacrifice all the Luffy vs Kaido build up just for that. Its always been Luffy vs kaido. Luffy was the one who faced off against him in act 1, Luffy was the first one to damage kaido, Luffy was the one kaido directly compared to Oden. Luffy is the guy currently 1v1ing him that everyone(zoro included) expects to beat kaido.

I genuinely want to know how ZKK can happen and not undermine what I just described.

Kaido awakening = it is only natural that they would revive, those beats are awakend zoah users, extreme physicals toughness and powers of recovery are their strong point.

What that mean? Simple, even if Kaido look defeated he will stand up again, that why the 9 scabban said this fight aint over until is head is severed. They know about Kaido super fast recovery. Oda doesnt give this kind of information for no reason.

Luffy will defeat Kaido, no doubt but Luffy doesnt have the lethality that Oden&Zoro have to finish completely Kaido.
And Luffy is not a samurai, he is the pirate king, Zoro is a samurai of the strongest clan the shimotzuki

 

[zzShinichi]

1035 does lessen the chance of ZKK, but also shows that Oda is actually thinking of making a parrallel between Zoro and Ryuma. So, this chapter could be that moment, OR, it's something in the future.
So, a little bit advice.
Oda LOVES Zoro, he's willing to give the higgest form of haki to him, MINUTES after him learning that he possesses Conqueror Haki. And the motherfucker is already using it at will.
He's willing to pull out of his ass a bullshit miracle drug that helps bring back his beloved Zoro and give him his epic 1v1, despite his feats in the rooftop against 2 yonkou.
And you can see the love and details he put in this chapter compared to say, Sanji vs Queen. It's not even close.
So, whatever you think is IMPOSSIBLE, for Zoro, Oda will find a way around it.
So my suggestion, wait till the arc is over to find out if ZKK is dead or pointless. Anything can happen at this point.

 

[yorosenpai]

1035 does lessen the chance of ZKK, but also shows that Oda is actually thinking of making a parrallel between Zoro and Ryuma. So, this chapter could be that moment, OR, it's something in the future.
So, a little bit advice.
Oda LOVES Zoro, he's willing to give the higgest form of haki to him, MINUTES after him learning that he possesses Conqueror Haki. And the motherfucker is already using it at will.
He's willing to pull out of his ass a bullshit miracle drug that helps bring back his beloved Zoro and give him his epic 1v1, despite his feats in the rooftop against 2 yonkou.
And you can see the love and details he put in this chapter compared to say, Sanji vs Queen. It's not even close.
So, whatever you think is IMPOSSIBLE, for Zoro, Oda will find a way around it.
So my suggestion, wait till the arc is over to find out if ZKK is dead or pointless. Anything can happen at this point.

np it doesnt because even in this chapter Oda is connecting Zoro to the shimotzuki lineage:

And the editor line is saying this: even dragons can be slayed with a single swing!
The editor is not refering to 1 dragon but dragons and we know that Onigashima has two.
This line also imply that it is indeed possible to cut a dragon with just 1 single swing (which wasnt a certain before) but now is much more possible.

Kaido himself told that (I have more faint in what kaido is telling narrative wise than what the fan think :cheers:;

 

[spawn]

How can he get a legend when no one in Wano, let alone the Flower Capital witnessed what he did?
He didn't slay anything over the capital either.

Spoiler: Look, this is from 1034.

You're also creating a connection that's not there between "sword god" and Lunarians being viewed as "gods".
It's as bad as saying "King is the dragon Zoro will slay because he ate a Dragon fruit".
A better connection would be, "King of hell" Zoro/Enma took down King the Lunarian, a.k.a "A god".
Since those are actually two conflicting things, instead of just saying "oh look, it has the word [god/dragon] here so it is connected!"

You also don't need to take away anything from Luffy either.
Let Luffy defeat Kaido. No one is saying to not do that.
The easiest solution is to have Kaido awaken after he loses to Luffy and to have him get slain by Zoro.

King, Queen, Jack, etcetera.
None of them have a purpose after they've lost their fights.
So, none of them have awakening.

 

[Finalbeta]

There's nothing pointless in Life or Death :cheers:

 

[The White Crane]

After seeing the conclusion of Zoro vs King, I have come to the conclusion that there is no need for ZKK to happen because Zoro vs King fulfills everything that was supposedly promised by ZKK.

1. Zoro defeating King is a bigger feat than him merely killing kaido

If ZKK happens, zoro will kill a defeated kaido, likely by cheapshot. This is the truth and there is no way around it. Luffy is the one who is 1v1ing kaido and he is the one who will ultimately defeat kaido. As we know, King is much more durable than kaido. So then why is ZKK such an amazing feat when zoro did an arguably bigger feat when he beat king. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying beating king is a bigger feat than beating kaido, but zoro isn't defeating kaido, Luffy is. Kaido's neck is less durable than King's body, so why is cutting it such a big deal when zoro already did a better feat?

2. Zoro already gained his Ryuma-paralleling legend by defeating King

King is a lunarian. Lunarians are viewed as gods. Zoro defeated a god, which in turn will lead to zoro becoming known as the "sword god" in wano, just as ryuma. He already slayed a "dragon" above the skies of the flower capital, just as ZKKers said he would for years. What is the point in it happening again, but with a weakened and defeated kaido?

Here's the thing, Zoro just got his big moment. He just got a massive feat and he probably got a legend to his name as well. If ZKK happens, all it will do is take away a similar moment from Luffy. Luffy vs Kaido has been portrayed as a defining part of Luffy's dream. First time Kaido defeated Luffy, "what type of king are you again". Second time Kaido defeated Luffy, "seems like you couldn't be joyboy either". Since Luffy will be PK and will be Joyboy, he needs to defeat Kaido, and it makes no sense for Oda to undermine that defeat after giving the fight such buildup.

Zoro vs King held similar relevancy to zoro's dream. Lunarians are near invincible, moreso than kaido, and Zoro smacked king so hard he took king's wing off. This fight had callbacks to kuina and zoro's childhood. Callbacks to ushimaru and ryuma as well. This is the fight where Zoro tamed enma and mastered ACoC, easily making him one of the top 5 swordsmen in one piece. This fight completed zoro's arc in wano and if you want more from him, you really need to ask yourself if this is something the story needs or if it is something you personally want.

No different then when Oda was just joking about Zoro having CoC and Kaido not knowing what CoC is.
Enma is turning black in this arc, nidai in the next and Wado against Mihawk.

Wait, shouldn't Wado blackening happen before the final fight against Mihawk, though? I doubt Zoro can beat Mihawk before creating 3 black blades.