Character Discussion Vol. 102 SBS proves that Zoro will be recognized as the official Vice Captain/First Mate/副船長 (Fuku Senchō) of the Strawhats at some point before EOS
- Thread starter ConquistadoR
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- Tags first mate roronoa zoro silvers rayleigh vice captain
So the recent reveal in the SBS section of Volume 102 that Zoro is not yet the First Mate/Vice Captain of the crew has the fandom in splits, with some arguing that the Strawhats will never have a First Mate/Vice Captain role since that indirectly implies that he has authority over Sanji, the other Wing of the Pirate King, and with some even arguing that the role is for Usopp as seen in Oda's early drafts.
This thread is to provide some context behind the terms that are being thrown around (Right Hand Man, Vice Captain, First Mate) and to demonstrate using the manga that Zoro will indeed be recognized as the First Mate of the Strawhat Pirates.
Context and clearing the mess with the translations:
副船長 = Fuku Senchō = Vice Captain. However the official translation choses to refer to this term as "First Mate" as shown in the case of Silvers Rayleigh, even though it's a term primarily used to refer to the Vice Captain.
Very clearly, Oda thinks that the First Mate/Vice Captain and Right Hand Man are two different terms. This was proven beyond doubt when Oda introduced Rayleigh as "海賊王の右腕" (Kaizoku-Ō no Migiude / Right Hand Man of the Pirate King) and then once again refers to him as the "副船長" (Fuku Senchō / Vice Captain/First Mate) of the Roger Pirates.
Hence, Vice Captain/First Mate/副船長 (fuku senchō), Right Hand Man and the Second Strongest are three different titles and who has them depends completely on the crew and it's dynamics.
- In some crews, the same person shares all the three titles (Rayleigh in the Roger Pirates/Beckmann in the Red Hair Pirates).
- In some crews, there exists RHMs who are the second strongest but they aren't recognized as the official First Mate/Vice Captain even though they carry out those duties (Marco in the WBP/King in the Beast Pirates).
- In some crews, the second strongest aren't even given the title of RHMs, let alone recognized as the First Mate/Vice Captain (Katakuri in the BMP).
Now let's discuss Silvers Rayleigh's case.
Silvers Rayleigh, the "Fuku-Senchō" of the Roger Pirates:
Oda clearly establishes that Rayleigh is the First Mate of the Roger Pirates during his introduction itself.
The Strawhats share multiple parallels with the Roger Pirates - with Luffy paralleling Roger, Zoro paralleling Rayleigh, Sanji paralelling Gaban quite heavily.
Some of the parallels between Rayleigh and Zoro are:
1) They are both heavy drinkers.
2) They both possess scars on their eyes.
3) They both possess Haoshoku Haki and are blessed by the heavens.
4) Their titles/epithets reflect their drive to stand above others, with Rayleigh being referred to as "冥王" (Mei-Ou / the Dark King) and Zoro being referred to as "閻王" (En-Ou / the King of Hell) with both the titles only differing in a single Kanji.
5) They are both swordsmen.
6) They are/will become legends of their own right; with Monkey D. Garp referring to Rayleigh as a "legend" while putting him on the same pedestal as Yonkou Whitebeard and Zoro promising to become so strong as the future World's Strongest Swordsman that his name would reach the heavens.
And as @comrade highlighted in his thread about Zoro already shouldering much of the responsibilities that comes with being a Vice Captain in his thread, it is all but guaranteed that Zoro will be recognized as the "副船長" (Fuku Senchō / Vice Captain/First Mate) of the Strawhat Pirates sometime before the series ends, just like how his parallel Rayleigh was recognized. Infact, the new SBS coming out and reiterating that Zoro is not yet recognized as the First Mate of the Strawhats only reinforces that the title is a big deal in Oda's mind and it would be a future character moment for Zoro when he is finally recognized.
And this moment from Bartolomeo in chapter 723 can be considered as solid forshadowing for the same as well. Notice the use of the exact same verbage as in the case with Rayleigh.
We have seen many crews in the series share the "Wings of their Captain" concept when it comes to their #2s and #3s , some examples being the King-Queen pair in the Beast Pirates, Marco-Jozu pair in the Whitebeard Pirates, possibly Shiryu-Laffitte pair in the Blackbeard Pirates and most importantly, the Rayleigh-Gaban pair in the Roger Pirates.
However, Oda still chose to classify Silvers Rayleigh as the First Mate or Vice Captain of the Roger Pirates, without any discrepancies. Given how Zoro and Sanji parallel this duo, I doubt that this would be a valid reason to not classify Roronoa Zoro as the First Mate or Vice Captain of the Strawhat Pirates.
I rest my case. Do post your thoughts and arguments.
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Either way whether or not Zoro becomes the Vice Captain in the future it ultimately doesn't matter as the strawhats all compliments each other and he will remain the most dependable battleforce of the crew outside luffy
Except that never happen. Where exactly did Queen call Sanji specifically the #2? All he did was referred to them as #2 and #3s
so it didnt happen. Thanks for confirming.
In fact, The example you yourself points to literally works against you, Black Maria referred to Sanji specifically as having the second highest bounty only. Not the #2.
Anytime, Zoro comes up as the #2, nobody has to make the qualifier of him being #2 in bounty. Hes just the #2
In fact, The example you yourself points to literally works against you, Black Maria referred to Sanji specifically as having the second highest bounty only. Not the #2.
Anytime, Zoro comes up as the #2, nobody has to make the qualifier of him being #2 in bounty. Hes just the #2
You say we've seen many crews with the "wings" concept but how many of them have actually been referred to with that term.
You mention Marco & Jozu whilst conveniently leaving out Vista (but even then, those 3 are only the most stand out, WB had 16 in total), and then you mention King & Queen whilst conveniently leaving out Jack. Kaido's top dogs are referred to as the "Calamities" not "Wings". The only crew that prolly has a similar structure to the SHs in this sense is Roger's crew with Ray & Scopper for obvious reasons.
Also another ting, I'll push back on is, the Sanji/Scopper parallel, I can understand why folks automatically make that assumption hell even I do the the same. However, the notion that Sanji and Scopper share a lot of similarities is a bit of a stretch. The only similarity they share at this point in the story is that they are both the number 3s of their respective crews except I've missed something and even their roles seems to be different (i.e Scopper seemingly being a Navigator and Sanji a Cook). Hell Scopper wields an Axe and Sanji uses his legs. I'd argue Sanji has more similarities with Ray than he does with Scopper.
All that said, it wouldn't kill me if Oda ever referred to Zoro, as the First Mate, as there seems to be a theme of the first joining the crew having that title and I do think he's more than qualified to have it but I personally don't think he will with the way Oda has been tip toeing around it. Plus, I don't think Oda is ever gonna establish any sort of rank superiority btw Zoro & Sanji.
Personally, I don't really see what difference it makes calling Zoro the vice captain now or latter down in the series. Imo it'd make zero sense to refer to him as EoS for instance, when he never really held that title in the first place.
You mention Marco & Jozu whilst conveniently leaving out Vista (but even then, those 3 are only the most stand out, WB had 16 in total), and then you mention King & Queen whilst conveniently leaving out Jack. Kaido's top dogs are referred to as the "Calamities" not "Wings". The only crew that prolly has a similar structure to the SHs in this sense is Roger's crew with Ray & Scopper for obvious reasons.
Also another ting, I'll push back on is, the Sanji/Scopper parallel, I can understand why folks automatically make that assumption hell even I do the the same. However, the notion that Sanji and Scopper share a lot of similarities is a bit of a stretch. The only similarity they share at this point in the story is that they are both the number 3s of their respective crews except I've missed something and even their roles seems to be different (i.e Scopper seemingly being a Navigator and Sanji a Cook). Hell Scopper wields an Axe and Sanji uses his legs. I'd argue Sanji has more similarities with Ray than he does with Scopper.
All that said, it wouldn't kill me if Oda ever referred to Zoro, as the First Mate, as there seems to be a theme of the first joining the crew having that title and I do think he's more than qualified to have it but I personally don't think he will with the way Oda has been tip toeing around it. Plus, I don't think Oda is ever gonna establish any sort of rank superiority btw Zoro & Sanji.
Personally, I don't really see what difference it makes calling Zoro the vice captain now or latter down in the series. Imo it'd make zero sense to refer to him as EoS for instance, when he never really held that title in the first place.
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Wdym it didnt happen ? It literally did happen. Who would the number 2 Queen referring to be ? Obviously the one with the higher bounty and the one which is on top.
Black Maria brought up Sanji having the second highest bounty, to berate the SHe PL. Basically called them weak for letting them have Sanji as the second highest bounty. Dont need to be a genius to connect the dot.
Queen called him the number 2 and Maria used his bounty in a PL point of view.
Carry on coping.
Black Maria brought up Sanji having the second highest bounty, to berate the SHe PL. Basically called them weak for letting them have Sanji as the second highest bounty. Dont need to be a genius to connect the dot.
Queen called him the number 2 and Maria used his bounty in a PL point of view.
Carry on coping.
Except that never happen. Where exactly did Queen call Sanji specifically the #2? All he did was referred to them together as #2 and #3s
Like most people in the verse, Queen and Maria know next to nothing about the dynamics of the SHs so they can only go off the SHs bounties. Currently Sanji has a higher bounty than Zoro so it makes sense that people assume he's the No.2 even if he technically isn't.
I don't get what your point is. We have supplementary material where Oda refers to Zoro as the #2, refers to him as the second-strongest, and drew him alongside other notable no. 2's/second-strongests. And we have confirmation from this SBS that the 1031 color spread was indeed a portrayal of the no. 2's/second strongest. What is there to argue about?
The Queen example is an assumption at best and even w/ Black Maria she specifically mentioned bounty
In other instances of Zoro being referred to as such (as opposed to Sanji), characters literally call him the First Mate/RHM/Vice Captain or whatever in reference to Bartolomeo and Urouge. Notice with Sanji that there's no such remark, it's JUST about bounty. Claiming that they only thought that about Zoro because of his bounty is, again, an assumption. Why didn't they refer to Sanji as the first mate because he has the second-highest bounty?
And this is not to mention the countless times in the series that Zoro has been mistaken for the captain or the countless times that people have questioned why he isn't the captain. That has never happened with Sanji.
If you wanna talk about the SHs not having an official VC, then yeah you're right. But canonically Zoro is the no. 2 and second-strongest, and the general One Piece world views him as the unofficial RHM/First Mate/VC because there are multiple instances of him being called the "fuku senchou"
The Queen example is an assumption at best and even w/ Black Maria she specifically mentioned bounty
In other instances of Zoro being referred to as such (as opposed to Sanji), characters literally call him the First Mate/RHM/Vice Captain or whatever in reference to Bartolomeo and Urouge. Notice with Sanji that there's no such remark, it's JUST about bounty. Claiming that they only thought that about Zoro because of his bounty is, again, an assumption. Why didn't they refer to Sanji as the first mate because he has the second-highest bounty?
And this is not to mention the countless times in the series that Zoro has been mistaken for the captain or the countless times that people have questioned why he isn't the captain. That has never happened with Sanji.
If you wanna talk about the SHs not having an official VC, then yeah you're right. But canonically Zoro is the no. 2 and second-strongest, and the general One Piece world views him as the unofficial RHM/First Mate/VC because there are multiple instances of him being called the "fuku senchou"
True it really doesn't matter who thinks zoro might be the vice captain or something when/if the crew himself don't recognize him as one.
I doubt luffy would give zoro authority over the other strawhats or that sanji (or even nami and the others) would fully accept him having that authority over them
Plus if luffy died zoro wouldn't be able to actually lead the crew. If lets say luffy suddenly died their more likely to either have no captain or just disband rather than captain zoro being a thing. Luffy is really the only one able to lead a crew like the strawhats
I doubt luffy would give zoro authority over the other strawhats or that sanji (or even nami and the others) would fully accept him having that authority over them
Plus if luffy died zoro wouldn't be able to actually lead the crew. If lets say luffy suddenly died their more likely to either have no captain or just disband rather than captain zoro being a thing. Luffy is really the only one able to lead a crew like the strawhats
Zoro was known as the no. 2 in-verse as recently as Dressrosa. It's not senseless to think he was referring to Zoro, even if Sanji's bounty is higher. Either way, you have to make an assumption because there was no direct clarification.
How do you know what they know about the SHs? As readers we only have bounties, they clearly have more info within the verse. Otherwise Bartolomeo wouldn't have known about Usopp shooting down the WG flag
And besides that, do you have no comment on Zoro being referred to as the no.2/second-strongest in supplementary material by Oda himself? Why is that not sufficient enough?
How do you know what they know about the SHs? As readers we only have bounties, they clearly have more info within the verse. Otherwise Bartolomeo wouldn't have known about Usopp shooting down the WG flag
And besides that, do you have no comment on Zoro being referred to as the no.2/second-strongest in supplementary material by Oda himself? Why is that not sufficient enough?