General & Others the swordsmen debate

[RayanOO]

The problem with your statement is that it is baseless. We have only ever seen Zoro use swordless style once and when he did he still managed to perform his usualy technique albeit swordless. I don't remember him complaigning that he was nerfed etc.

I personally believe he is weaker without his sword. However, we don't know if this is true to begin with and if true by how much.

I think this can be explained by multiple reasons :

- he is not trained in H2H : Sanji trained his kicks with Zeff, Luffy trained using his DF with his fists, other fighters know other martial arts etc

- Zoro trained with swords all his life so this is his most favorable fighting style : he is at his best with swords.

If Zoro were as strong with or wthout swords it will have no sense to fight with them all the time.

Zoro only showed one skill without swords compared to the dozens he has with swords this doesn't weight much.

Swords give him better, AP, better range, better skills, better defense etc. And without swords he doesn't have acces to his strongest fighting style.

Am not sure where you rate Killer, However, Zoro didn't show any ineffectiveness when he used onigiri against Killer. He has never held a scythe his entire time. The first time he did, he managed to perform onigiri with it.

There was no nerf etc that was shown when he used the scythe. (Now I too believe he is better with swords, however, from what was shown, there was no difference between him using onigiri with 3 swords (against Hyouzu) and using onigiri with 2 swords and a scythe (against Killer).

Zoro had two of his own swords and a blade weapon so yes he managed to cut Killer. But I clearly think that Oni giri with Zoro 3 swords is stronger than Oni giri with two swords and a no name scythe.

The balance, the weight, the length, the quality of the blade : all of these differences made the scythe less effective for Zoro. It is difficult to say how much I admit.

That is why I think Killer was nerfed too : Killer is strong so even if you give him scythes that are not his usual weapons he will manage something good, but Killer is likely stronger with his usual weapons and his usual fighting style, the fighting style he trained and the fighting style he has used for the longest time.

 

[uyuu]

the thing about weaker and stronger is true. many forget that unfortunately. winning 9/10 is a clear superiority. this still leaves room for a victory of the underdog. like many of Luffys victories.
additional abilities to not determine if a person is a swordsman or not. the deciding factor is if they use that ability with their sword mainly.
Law could, theoretically finish off Mihawk with his counter shock and then take the title of world strongest swordsmen (implying that a single victory over Mihawk makes one gain the title). this is in line with the definition I suggested.
or as a more mundane approach. its okay to throw sand into Mihawks eyes and cut him down. this does not invalidate swordsmanship.
I do not see how this could narrow down the title more than it already is.
if BM, for example, were to beat Mihawk then Mihawk would still remain the WSS as BM, in my eyes, is not a swordsman.

while I do agree that Roger seems very much like a swordsman I do not want to shift the discussion in his direction for obvious reasons. many put Roger on a pedestal. if I label him a swordsman then one side or the other will take offense and I do not wish for this topic to become a nother fight fest.



this has me a bit confused now. maybe its the same reasoning I use for Kaido/WB.
Roger would lose to his eras WSS in a 1v1, but is overall the more capable fighter?
if that is what you mean then I can definitely agree.

having superiority over a character in 1v1 does not equate being generally superior to that character. definitely possible.

i think our perspective is different. If Mihawk crushes Law's sword, and thwn Law teleports and use Mes or Soul Switch to take Mihawk's heart and win because of that, i don't consider Law to be a stronger swordsman than Mihawk, but he has other powers that makes him a stronger fighter overall, but still a weaker swordsman.

If Mihawk breaks Fujitora's sword by Kokutou yoru, but then Fujitora uses gravity to crush Mihawk's organs and wins because of that, imo Mihawk is still a stronger swordsman and still a WSS, but an overall weaker fighter than Fujitora.

The Cabaji example. If Cabaji wins because of fire breathing technique, imo Cabaji is still a weaker swordsman than Zoro, but he is stronger fighter overall.

These three examples should give you description about my definition of a swordsman, which is based on real-life situation.

 

[BossYimz]

on that much we agree. it was Cabajis weapon of choice in this situation. not to mention he labelled himself already anyways.

True

technically correct. Zoro was using sword techniques with the seppuku knife and the scythe. in the case of the scythe he still had 2 swords so I would much rather exclude this from the example.
a knife, in essence, is a very short sword if you will. heck, Zoro performed sword techniques unarmed.
BM on the other hand threw an attack that was not limited (outlined to be) to a specific type of weapon.
Zoro always uses swordsmenship no matter what and not bladedweaponmenship.
its also a hypothetical scenario. treat it as such.

if you assume that BM is below Mihawk because she can use a sword (alongside other skills) then fine.
would your opinion suddenly change if BM had an axe instead of a sword? if the answer is yes, well, then you are quite the hypocrite.

you are still stuck in that train of thought that swordsmen are allowed to use other abilities, but
brawlers or DF users are not allowed to use a sword. ever.

let me give you a real life example of what I mean.
we had a guy in our football team that could run 100m in slightly >11s. thats insanely fast for anyone who has no frame of reference on this.
he was still for all intents and purposed a football player.
him being able to outperform 99.99% of the population in 100m sprint did not make him a runner all of a sudden. he choose to be a football players. its what he did mostly. even though his football career was peaking at the 3rd lowest league.
he used his 100m running skill to become a better football player. the 100m running skill did not determine how he was classified.

knowing a skill does not make you anything. the way you behave is the deciding factor.
swordsmen use swords almost exclusively. anyone who does not act this way is not a swordsmen, but instead they are a character that know swordsmanship.

Ok I can agree with you that a knife is a short sword.

However, we have seen Zoro use a scythe that is not even close to being a sword and still perform his santoryuu techniques.

You are giving BM the benefit of doubt by stating that she would still be as strong as normal with a different weapon simply because she can use a technique that Brogy used with an axe. Zoro has already shown us that techniques can be used with different weapons even if they were not meant to be used by that weapon. He used a sword technique with a scythe.
BM probably can use a different weapon ie axe and perform the same technique Brogy did, however, this doesn't take away from the fact that she is a swordsman.

Mihawk is wss and above all swordsmen. He is by default stronger than all swordsmen until he is defeated by a swordsman. Reason being is that we were informed he is indeed the strongest swordsman in name/title as well as in actuality. Meaning, there is no swordsman in existance right now that is stronger than him, Bm included.
If BM was introduced using an axe instead of a sword, we would not be having the debate we are right now. She would fall outside of the wss > all swordsmen umbrella and we would have to see how she stacks up against Mihawk in a 1v1 to determine if Mihawk is stronger than her.
I am sure that you believe prime WB was stronger than BM simply because she falls under the WSM > all people umbrella. This is despite the fact that you never saw them fighting each other.
The same portrayal applies to Mihawk wss > all swordsmen

Am not stuck in a mentality that brawlers can't use other abilities. If a brawler uses a df, rokushiki, gun etc, they will still be called a rokushiki master, a df user, a brawler, marskman etc. Them using other abilities doesn't take away from each other. A marskaman is an individual that knows how to use a gun, a rokushiki master is an individual that can use rokushiki etc.
If a brawler knows how to use a sword, they are automatically a swordsman as well. The 2 fields are not mutually exclusive. You can be both. As a mater of fact we already saw this with the cp9. All of them were trained swordsmen. Kaku just happened to be the best swordsman. Despite being a martial artist and df user, he was still a swordsman as well. Zoro didn't say Kaku is not allowed to use his martial arts ie rokushiki or his df. It didn't matter to Zoro. Zoro still treated Kaku as a swordsman and wrecked him simply because Kaku knew how to use a sword. (Initially Zoro even though of Kaku as a 2 swordstyle user, but was later corrected by Kaku when he said he is a 4 swordstyle user as he treats his body (legs) as a sword as well)

 

[Fn Lucci]

I personally believe he is weaker without his sword. However, we don't know if this is true to begin with and if true by how much.

This is what I was talking about. How is it not true that he's not as effective without his swords? This is one of the most obvious points in the series, and people take whatever wiggle room they can find to try arguing it.

 

[BossYimz]

I think this can be explained by multiple reasons :

- he is not trained in H2H : Sanji trained his kicks with Zeff, Luffy trained using his DF with his fists, other fighters know other martial arts etc

- Zoro trained with swords all his life so this is his most favorable fighting style : he is at his best with swords.

If Zoro were as strong with or wthout swords it will have no sense to fight with them all the time.

Zoro only showed one skill without swords compared to the dozens he has with swords this doesn't weight much.

Swords give him better, AP, better ranger, better skills, better defense etc. And without swords he doesn't have acces to his strongest fighting style.

The fact that Zoro has a non sword style, which is besically martial arts (akaido is a swordless martial art that mimics sword fighting style) shows that he trained himself on how to fight without a sword.

He can fight with or without a sword. Your point would be valid if Zoro was completely useless without his sword and could not fight at all. However, the fact that he develop a fighting style based on him not possesing a sword, is evidence that he trained in order to be able to fight without his swords. As for the fact that he only showed one skill without his swords,It doesn't mean much cause he has not been presented with multiple situations where he is without his swords. Through the series he has only shown 2 techniques when using 1 sword style (shishisonson and 360 pound canon) this doesn't stop it from being a sword style when compared to 3 sword style that has multiple techniques.

Zoro with 3 swords has more techniques than Zoro with 1 sword. This doesn't take away from the fact that one of his strongest techniques is actually shishisonson which is a 1 sword style. It is even stronger than majority of his 2 sword stlye and 3 sword style techniques.
We just have not seen enough of no sword style to know how it stacks up to the rest. With advanced haki, we have seen that swordsmen eg Hyogoro and Rayleigh, can still dish out strong technqiues without their swords. We need more info on no sword style Zoro before we can write him out as usless with no sword style

Zoro had two of his own swords and a blade weapon so yes he managed to cut Killer. But I clearly think that Oni giri with Zoro 3 swords is stronger than Oni giri with two swords and a no name scythe.

The balance, the weight, the length, the quality of the blade : all of these differences made the scythe less effective for Zoro. It is difficult to say how much I admit.

That is why I think Killer was nerfed too : Killer is strong so even if you give him scythes that are not his usual weapons he will manage something good, but Killer is likely stronger with his usual weapons and his usual fighting style, the fighting style he trained and the fighting style he has used for the longest time.

I agree with you and also believe Zoro with 3 swords is probably stronger than Zoro with 2 swords and a scythe.
However, this is baseless and not based on manga fact. We are just assuming. Reason being is that he showed no issues using 2 swords and a scythe to perform santoryu onigiri.
Contrast Luffy with nidai and Zoro with the scythe. Luffy was unable to fight with the sword, he just held it in his hand and forgot without using it. Whereas, Zoro actually not only used the sycthe in his fight, he even used it to perform 3 sword style. A move the he can normally only perform when he has 3 swords.
The fact that Zoro achieved such a feat despite it being the first time he held a scythe shows he is comfortable fighting with a scythe and that the weight, length, quality was not an issue for him.

If Zoro can used named attacks with a weapon he held for the first time in his life, then Killer has no excuse. He had those weapons for days or weeks before he fought Zoro.

 

[BossYimz]

This is what I was talking about. How is it not true that he's not as effective without his swords? This is one of the most obvious points in the series, and people take whatever wiggle room they can find to try arguing it.

It is unknown because we know he has a swordless style i.e martial arts that he developed specifially for instances where he has no swords.

If Zoro didn't have swordless style and was completely garbage and useless without his swords, it it would be obvious that he it weaker without his swords.

However, as things stand, we don't know whether swordless Zoro is > sword Zoro, or swordless Zoro = sword Zoro or whether swordless Zoro < sword Zoro. We are just assuming that sword Zoro > swordless Zoro because he wants to be the strongest swords. However, being the strongest swordsman has no bearing to swordless Zoro since they are fighting styles that are completely different from each other. We have never seen swordless Zoro go all out as such we can't definitively concluded that he is indeed weaker without his swords.

We basically give the benefit of doubt that sword Zoro > swordless Zoro. We basically assume that 9 sword style>3 sword style>2 sword style > 1 sword style > swordless style. However, Zoro has displayed contractictions that show some of his weaker sword styles > his stronger sword styles. Case in point some of his 1 sword style techniqeus > 2 swors style, 3 sword style. His shishisonson is arguably one of the strongest tehcniques he has in his entire arsenal, it is stronger than some of his 2 sword and 3 sword style techniques. This tells us that it is not automatic that 1 sword style < 3 sword style. It is situational and depends on what he wants to achieve. I can honestly see Zoro using shishisonson defeating Zoro with santoryuu, likewise I can see Zoro using sanzen sekai defeating Zoro using 1 sword style.

 

[Fn Lucci]

It is unknown because we know he has a swordless style i.e martial arts that he developed specifially for instances where he has no swords.

If Zoro didn't have swordless style and was completely garbage and useless without his swords, it it would be obvious that he it weaker without his swords.

However, as things stand, we don't know whether swordless Zoro is > sword Zoro, or swordless Zoro = sword Zoro or whether swordless Zoro < sword Zoro. We are just assuming that sword Zoro > swordless Zoro because he wants to be the strongest swords. However, being the strongest swordsman has no bearing to swordless Zoro since they are fighting styles that are completely different from each other. We have never seen swordless Zoro go all out as such we can't definitively concluded that he is indeed weaker without his swords.

No offense, but I'm not doing that thing where someone repeatedly gives examples and the other person, in hopes of being a devil's advocate and just contrary beyond common sense, argues some trivial detail of it endlessly in hopes of dragging away from the larger conclusion. Use your head. He's not going to use swords if he's not stronger with them. He practices swords constantly. That's pretty much all he does aside from drink and sleep. When taken away from his swords he immediately goes after them or requests them. He borrowed swords to fight with when his other ones were broken. He's been shown to have outstanding physical strength and at least basic brawling skills going back to Buggy, but even before that we saw that he is dedicated to sword fighting. Using a fangless tatsumaki on one loser (whose captain Foxy had a whopping bounty of 24 mil) pre timeskip doesn't change that.

I'll give you this, the idea of the number of swords equaling power doesn't quite hold up. Obviously techniques like his Cannon series of flying slashes benefit and many of his staple moves, like his Ougi, involve all three. But his ability to use one or two suggests that he's not necessarily weaker without a sword in his mouth, it's just his preference. His declaration was to become stronger with Wadou and it is always the third sword, in his mouth, but he can probably win many fights against quality opponents without it.

I remember during the Wanze fight some goofs tried to argue for Sanji as a swordsman, and saying Zoro is close to the same fighter without his swords is even goofier.

 

[Mr. Anderson]

Swordless Zoro is significantly weaker than Zoro with swords.

Doesnt matter if he's shown one technique outside of swordsmanship in order to have a means to defend himself. If swordless Zoro fought another brawler like say Luffy or Sanji he would getting outpaced and would be taking more hits than the opposition and would lose. He's focused the abundance of his skill with the blade. He isnt versatile in both unarmed and armed combat.

Cabaj made the definition clear as day. A swordsman in One Piece is a person who claims to be one.

Kizaru is a marine. They are all trained to use various weapons, from guns to blades since they were cadets. He does not consider himself a swordsman. Fuji the only one of the admirals that does.

BM also does not consider herself a swordsman. She considers herself a Pirate overall.

WB considers himself just a Pirate. He doesnt call himself a bisentoman neither does Kaido call himself club man.

The WSS title does not put Mihawk automatically above anyone with a sword, not only because matchups can go in anyone's favor, but also because alot of characters that can weild a sword dont consider themselves swordsman.

If BM beat Mihawk she doesnt become the World's Strongest Swordswoman. The title she wants is pirate king. The world will recognize Mihawk's defeat as a loss to a Pirate Emperor, they would still see him as the WSS.

 

[Don DaSlayer]

Everyone that has or carry’s a sword is a swordsman.

 

[HA001]

Swordless Zoro is significantly weaker than Zoro with swords.

Doesnt matter if he's shown one technique outside of swordsmanship in order to have a means to defend himself. If swordless Zoro fought another brawler like say Luffy or Sanji he would getting outpaced and would be taking more hits than the opposition and would lose. He's focused the abundance of his skill with the blade. He isnt versatile in both unarmed and armed combat.

Cabaj made the definition clear as day. A swordsman in One Piece is a person who claims to be one.

Kizaru is a marine. They are all trained to use various weapons, from guns to blades since they were cadets. He does not consider himself a swordsman. Fuji the only one of the admirals that does.

BM also does not consider herself a swordsman. She considers herself a Pirate overall.

WB considers himself just a Pirate. He doesnt call himself a bisentoman neither does Kaido call himself club man.

The WSS title does not put Mihawk automatically above anyone with a sword, not only because matchups can go in anyone's favor, but also because alot of characters that can weild a sword dont consider themselves swordsman.

If BM beat Mihawk she doesnt become the World's Strongest Swordswoman. The title she wants is pirate king. The world will recognize Mihawk's defeat as a loss to a Pirate Emperor, they would still see him as the WSS.

Thats bullshit. If she beats him using napoleon and the rest of her arsenal. Shes the wss.

 

[nik87]

While other weapon users like people who use a bisento, a club, fist weapon, spear arent getting the same classification as swordsmen, I certainly wouldnt call them brawlers because we dont have a better word for them because bisentoman/clubman/spearman/fist-weaponman arent a thing...

I will also address the two cases people struggle the most with - Big Mom and Kizaru. Imo, both are swordsmen.
The counter-argument is - but they fight without their swords just fine and just as good... That isnt true if you look closer.
Who has Big Mom fought without her sword? Only the people who are nothing more than ants for her. When she fought an actual top tier she did it with her sword. Can she handle Kaido's club without her sword? I dont think so.

Can she take on Whitebeard's bisento barehanded? I dont think so. Can she take Shanks'/Mihawk's sword barehanded? I dont think so.
Can she take on Kizaru's sword barehanded? I dont think so. Would she take on Akainu's magma barehanded? I dont think so.
You see? Any worthy opponent she would face, she would do it with her sword. For ants she doesnt need it and that doesnt disqualify her as a swordsman.

Let's see Kizaru-kun now. The same scenario. He doesnt need to use a sword for the ants. He fought his hardest battle with a sword.
Counter-argument is - but he fought Whitebeard without a sword... Did he? Did he actually fight WB? Shooting a laser once disqualifies him as a swordsman? He was never in an actual 1vs1 for a prolonged period with WB. Using other abilities aside from sword hasnt disqualified anyone as swordman.

But he doesnt even carry a sword. Yeah, he doesnt, because unlike the other swordsmen his DF allows him to pull it out of thin air whenever he needs it. Would he take on WB's bisento/Kaido's club/Mihawk's and Shanks' sword/Akainu's magma barehanded? I dont think so. If you turn to a sword against worthy opponents, you are a swordsman, pretty simple...

 

[Just a member]

As I consider it:

Everyone who uses a sword is also a swordsman (he must have a certain degree of skill in order to use one otherwise you have Luffy when he uses a sword). Yet there are pure swordsmans (Zoro and Mihawk are basically the only ones worth mentioning as far as I know, now in Wano we have some new ones with Oden, Denjiro, basically swordmanship is Wano national style) and mixed one aka df users who uses a sword functionally to their df powers: Law, Fujitora but even Das Bones can somewhat count as one then we have BM who somewhat uses a sword in junction with her powers too, in her case the sword is a secondary style or a complement for her df like for the other mixed ones.

Now the only ones interested in the way of the sword and to be the best with a sword are pretty much only Zoro and Mihawk. If you look at Zoro we note that he never ever covers his body in coa (see vs Gyuki and Kamazou) but only his swords cause he only uses his swords to fight and using coa to cover his body is not honorable for a swordsman, only defending with a sword (coated in coa if there is the need to) or taking the hit and go on fighting. Mihawk also instructed him to be able to make his sword black and avoid taking any dent aka have a coa stronger than the one he is fighting with on his sword but he too never said anything about cover his body in coa or other crap. And this is another difference between pure sowrdsman and mixed ones.

Then it is yet to see if coc too can count in a honorable sword fight, then, imo, we can say that Mihawk is the storngest with a sword and in a fight just with swords is the strongest but if the enemy starts using their other powers (df) then they can contend and maybe even beat him (Shanks using coc, BM with her df, Kaido with his zoan etc.). But that of course would not count as a match for the WSS title.

 

[Fn Lucci]

Thats bullshit. If she beats him using napoleon and the rest of her arsenal. Shes the wss.

I get what he's saying in regards to talking about the kind of character who embarrassed a YC with brute strength alone. Big Mom vs Mihawk probably looks like him breaking Napoleon, then getting pummeled into the ground and scorched to ash if he doesn't escape .

But when it's time to fight she takes out her sword and it's been directly shown that she has skills with it. If she did beat Mihawk with it, then she is WSS plain and simple. That can happen because she's a swords woman.

 

[HA001]

I get what he's saying in regards to talking about the kind of character who embarrassed a YC with brute strength alone. Big Mom vs Mihawk probably looks like him breaking Napoleon, then getting pummeled into the ground and scorched to ash if he doesn't escape .

But when it's time to fight she takes out her sword and it's been directly shown that she has skills with it. If she did beat Mihawk with it, then she is WSS plain and simple. That can happen because she's a swords woman.

Wut ? No. If he breaks Napoleon then shes a sitting duck for a stronger swordsman with better haki and a sword that is a black blade than oden who cut kaido , with a free shot on her body. Then shes dead.

 

[Albino 👑]

Actually curious if people consider franky a swordsman not jokingly

 

[Jew D. Boy]

Actually curious if people consider franky a swordsman not jokingly

You know I’m right there with you in the Franky fandom, man...has he ever even TOUCHED a sword on panel??

 

[Kejon]

I'd say BM is a swordsman. It kind of makes sense too. BM>>>>Mihawk, so you can definitely say she is a swordsman.

 

[Albino 👑]

You know I’m right there with you in the Franky fandom, man...has he ever even TOUCHED a sword on panel??

Technically his robot did so....
He definitely has wss potential being pluton+ level but he technically doesn't count

He could possibly be wsm if he wasn't a cyborg

 

[HA001]

Technically his robot did so....
He definitely has wss potential being pluton+ level but he technically doesn't count

He could possibly be wsm if he wasn't a cyborg

The sunnys pluton not franky.

 

[Mr. Anderson]

Thats bullshit. If she beats him using napoleon and the rest of her arsenal. Shes the wss.

No, she isnt. People will say WSS Mihawk was beat by a Yonko lol