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Ok just read through the thread, and it seems there were many people confused by my actions, so i'd like clarify them before explaining why i believe TAC is scum
- First of all, as i mentioned before, you can never catch scum if you stay passive,
So the reason of my initial agressive play on TAC was to spark a discussion and see the way he'd defend his position to possibly catch on to something(whether he is town or scum)
- Secondly, for the reason above then, of course the initial case would be "weak" considering it's only used to spark discussion, which is also why i wasn't voting TAC at that point
- Thirdly, a scum starting aggressively like this to push town based on a "weak" case can only serve to digging his own grave, would be a stupid mistake to make, and anyone who played with me before when i was scum could tell you, i'd not do this mistake
- Fourthly we have a 48h DP1, something that was even the initial theme of my arguments, so voting at that point could further help to apply pressure on a player and see his reaction
- Lastly, it's through the discussion however that i noticed TAC could really be scum, with the discussion evolving from the initial "48h notice" to TAC hard-pushing me as a liar from a single wrong sentence interpretation, which not only i found intellectually dishonest, but also purposedly playing dumb to try to continuously pushing a case even after i clarified multiple times what i was initially referring to(not reading the part where the DP1 exceptional 48h long was mentioned)
As mentioned here, it was pretty obvious what my point was: https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/round-08-tokyo-ghoul.4223/page-6#post-367023
I've seen that there are few experienced mafia players who also noted something as basic at that like @Reborn or @Dragomir. Hell i think even @RayanOO noticed this, and i already played mafia with TAC, so i don't believe he is this dumb, so i can only view this as a mafia trying to take advantage of a misinterpretation to push a case to lynch a regular town, hence my vote on him
So Drago the point i'm in disagreement with you is when you talked about TAC venting his frustration, i don't think it's the case, but more like him getting pressured and thus using a misinterpretation to push a case to lynch a regular town because he continuously did it even after i clarified it multiple times like Reborn also noted
I'd also like to recommend to town not to think too much about past games. I have not played the previous game with TAC to know, but just because he was town in a previous game doesn't mean he is now. It's a wrong analogy to make
- First of all, as i mentioned before, you can never catch scum if you stay passive,
So the reason of my initial agressive play on TAC was to spark a discussion and see the way he'd defend his position to possibly catch on to something(whether he is town or scum)
- Secondly, for the reason above then, of course the initial case would be "weak" considering it's only used to spark discussion, which is also why i wasn't voting TAC at that point
- Thirdly, a scum starting aggressively like this to push town based on a "weak" case can only serve to digging his own grave, would be a stupid mistake to make, and anyone who played with me before when i was scum could tell you, i'd not do this mistake
- Fourthly we have a 48h DP1, something that was even the initial theme of my arguments, so voting at that point could further help to apply pressure on a player and see his reaction
- Lastly, it's through the discussion however that i noticed TAC could really be scum, with the discussion evolving from the initial "48h notice" to TAC hard-pushing me as a liar from a single wrong sentence interpretation, which not only i found intellectually dishonest, but also purposedly playing dumb to try to continuously pushing a case even after i clarified multiple times what i was initially referring to(not reading the part where the DP1 exceptional 48h long was mentioned)
As mentioned here, it was pretty obvious what my point was: https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/round-08-tokyo-ghoul.4223/page-6#post-367023
I've seen that there are few experienced mafia players who also noted something as basic at that like @Reborn or @Dragomir. Hell i think even @RayanOO noticed this, and i already played mafia with TAC, so i don't believe he is this dumb, so i can only view this as a mafia trying to take advantage of a misinterpretation to push a case to lynch a regular town, hence my vote on him
So Drago the point i'm in disagreement with you is when you talked about TAC venting his frustration, i don't think it's the case, but more like him getting pressured and thus using a misinterpretation to push a case to lynch a regular town because he continuously did it even after i clarified it multiple times like Reborn also noted
I'd also like to recommend to town not to think too much about past games. I have not played the previous game with TAC to know, but just because he was town in a previous game doesn't mean he is now. It's a wrong analogy to make
D
Actually, no. Unvote. Don't feel like voting for Beta.
@Reborn Beta is right. Something being risky is even more reason for why a player, specifically Mafia, would do it. It creates this logic in someone else's head that being: "oh, he's doing something so risky for a scum, so he probably isn't one."
That is WIFOM logic and extremely faulty. You will come across many games in which scum will do shit that you don't expect them to do. For example, voting for their own buddy 5 seconds before the phase ends in order to save the town cop when they could have just not done anything allowing their buddy to be saved and the cop to be lynched. Another example is a player voting for themselves at EoD, thus making their own wagon the lead wagon. In both instances, the players were scum and went on to win the game because they got town cred for doing something that doesn't make sense coming from a wolf.
The only times that logic would hold is if someone did something so outrageous that they can't be scum.
@Reborn Beta is right. Something being risky is even more reason for why a player, specifically Mafia, would do it. It creates this logic in someone else's head that being: "oh, he's doing something so risky for a scum, so he probably isn't one."
That is WIFOM logic and extremely faulty. You will come across many games in which scum will do shit that you don't expect them to do. For example, voting for their own buddy 5 seconds before the phase ends in order to save the town cop when they could have just not done anything allowing their buddy to be saved and the cop to be lynched. Another example is a player voting for themselves at EoD, thus making their own wagon the lead wagon. In both instances, the players were scum and went on to win the game because they got town cred for doing something that doesn't make sense coming from a wolf.
The only times that logic would hold is if someone did something so outrageous that they can't be scum.
D
@Bogard
But how so when he never pushed for your lynch? Iirc, all he voiced was a suspicion for your tunneling.
About the frustration thing, let's take a look at TAC's perspective. He finds your reasoning to be bad and really weak. So by you tunneling him for something that he found to be trivial, he got frustrated. Is that not legit to you?
But how so when he never pushed for your lynch? Iirc, all he voiced was a suspicion for your tunneling.
About the frustration thing, let's take a look at TAC's perspective. He finds your reasoning to be bad and really weak. So by you tunneling him for something that he found to be trivial, he got frustrated. Is that not legit to you?
Answer these two questions?
Pushing tac case so hard to Lynch him simply based on something as trivial as that doesn't make sense especially so early on day one.
Do you have anything else on him apart from what you said about his slip and his response to your pressure tactic?
Also, since you have read the thread then give me your reads so far. Apart From tac whom you finding sus?
I am open for that possibility but there is also good chance that this isn't the case
Pushing tac case so hard to Lynch him simply based on something as trivial as that doesn't make sense especially so early on day one.
Do you have anything else on him apart from what you said about his slip and his response to your pressure tactic?
Also, since you have read the thread then give me your reads so far. Apart From tac whom you finding sus?
I am open for that possibility but there is also good chance that this isn't the case
As mentioned, my initial agressive play on TAC was just to see his position. But the real reason i think he is scum is because he continuously tried to paint me as a liar from a single sentence misinterpretation even after i clarified to him what i meant. We already played together in a team before and i don't believe TAC is this dumb
Outside of TAC, i'd recommend to pay attention to the ones who may have attempted to take advantage of the Bogard vs TAC situation.
I have a slight suspicion on Kiwi and Lanji due to their positions during the Bogard vs TAC debate. For Kiwi, i think she tried to hard to play diplomatic at the beginning and for Lanji, i think he might have attempted to protect TAC at one point
I think Finalbeta, Drago, and you are town. For Drago and you, it's because i think you ask the right questions, with your reads being on point. In Final's case, it's because i think he is really trying to find clues on the situation, eventhough his reads are wrong imo, but that's Final we're talking about
For the rest, i think it's still questionable. Need to see more posts from them
Outside of TAC, i'd recommend to pay attention to the ones who may have attempted to take advantage of the Bogard vs TAC situation.
I have a slight suspicion on Kiwi and Lanji due to their positions during the Bogard vs TAC debate. For Kiwi, i think she tried to hard to play diplomatic at the beginning and for Lanji, i think he might have attempted to protect TAC at one point
I think Finalbeta, Drago, and you are town. For Drago and you, it's because i think you ask the right questions, with your reads being on point. In Final's case, it's because i think he is really trying to find clues on the situation, eventhough his reads are wrong imo, but that's Final we're talking about
For the rest, i think it's still questionable. Need to see more posts from them
So let's just approach this from my perspective @Bogard;
From my second comment in this game, you've been pushing me for a very minuscule reason that in no way hints at any alignment. Nothing I said eludes to me being scum. Then, probably more than a handful of posts into this argument, you make a comment that—again if we want to take you at your word—is poorly constructed and lends credence to a completely different interpretation.
Why on earth, after you deciding to push me that far, would I suddenly give you the benefit of the doubt here? The way you said it made it come across much more as a blatant lie. Something I'm HAPPY to call out.
So what reason, based on our interactions of you pushing me for inconsequential matters since the very start of this game, do I have to suddenly go; "Oh. I guess Bogard just made a mistake." instead of believing you're continuing your aggressive stance on me and spreading a lie?
Why would I do this? What reason have you given me to believe you?
From my second comment in this game, you've been pushing me for a very minuscule reason that in no way hints at any alignment. Nothing I said eludes to me being scum. Then, probably more than a handful of posts into this argument, you make a comment that—again if we want to take you at your word—is poorly constructed and lends credence to a completely different interpretation.
Why on earth, after you deciding to push me that far, would I suddenly give you the benefit of the doubt here? The way you said it made it come across much more as a blatant lie. Something I'm HAPPY to call out.
So what reason, based on our interactions of you pushing me for inconsequential matters since the very start of this game, do I have to suddenly go; "Oh. I guess Bogard just made a mistake." instead of believing you're continuing your aggressive stance on me and spreading a lie?
Why would I do this? What reason have you given me to believe you?
Because there was no mistake? I just wasn't explicit enough, but from the discussion, it was obvious what i meant
This is what i said
- I talked about what you presumably read IN opening post. Nothing about not reading opening post, but what you read in that opening post
- The "didn't read it at all" then was linked to WHAT you presumably read IN the opening post, not the opening post itself
Dragomir also noticed what i meant
And as the one who was arguing with me, it should have been obvious for you to realize what i meant considering my entire initial argument was resolving around somehow reading opening post, but failing to read the exceptional 48h for DP1
But instead of noticing this, you decided to somehow play dumb and portray me as a liar instead
And even after i clarified multiple times what i meant, you still continued to portray me as a liar.
The only reason you could have decided to do this then is if you wanted to take advantage of a misinterpretation to redirect the lynch on a regular townie when you started being suspicious
This is what i said
- I talked about what you presumably read IN opening post. Nothing about not reading opening post, but what you read in that opening post
- The "didn't read it at all" then was linked to WHAT you presumably read IN the opening post, not the opening post itself
Dragomir also noticed what i meant
And as the one who was arguing with me, it should have been obvious for you to realize what i meant considering my entire initial argument was resolving around somehow reading opening post, but failing to read the exceptional 48h for DP1
But instead of noticing this, you decided to somehow play dumb and portray me as a liar instead
And even after i clarified multiple times what i meant, you still continued to portray me as a liar.
The only reason you could have decided to do this then is if you wanted to take advantage of a misinterpretation to redirect the lynch on a regular townie when you started being suspicious
Okay I skimmed through most of it as there was a lot of repetition.
So far I like what I saw from Queen and Celestia. Queen in particular for throwing cold water on the idea that the Bogard vs TAC interaction is automatically town vs town. If they are smart or experienced players they would know that a D1 fight like that is likely to be construed as town v town as most are doing here. It's risky sure, but impossible? no way.
Not really a fan of what I've seen from Dragomir. His tldr of when people bus in particular is off. Anything is possible in mafia and experienced players know the common strategies and how to subvert expectations. If you are thinking 'scum wouldn't do that' then you've identified a viable strategy for mafia to use. Also didn't like how Dragomir skirted around Celestia's response to him.
I think TAC is town. I sense the same indignation from the last game. Being upset is natural @Reborn if you are town and continually sussed on flimsy reasons.
I don't know what to think about Bogard. I want to think he is town but he took it a bit too far imo. D1 is always coinflippy and I don't see any real benefit for TAC to be lying about the length of the day phase? Like what benefit does scum get from that? Is it likely that he just didn't read the OP carefully? yes. Hell I personally skim read them most of the time.
So far I like what I saw from Queen and Celestia. Queen in particular for throwing cold water on the idea that the Bogard vs TAC interaction is automatically town vs town. If they are smart or experienced players they would know that a D1 fight like that is likely to be construed as town v town as most are doing here. It's risky sure, but impossible? no way.
Not really a fan of what I've seen from Dragomir. His tldr of when people bus in particular is off. Anything is possible in mafia and experienced players know the common strategies and how to subvert expectations. If you are thinking 'scum wouldn't do that' then you've identified a viable strategy for mafia to use. Also didn't like how Dragomir skirted around Celestia's response to him.
I think TAC is town. I sense the same indignation from the last game. Being upset is natural @Reborn if you are town and continually sussed on flimsy reasons.
I don't know what to think about Bogard. I want to think he is town but he took it a bit too far imo. D1 is always coinflippy and I don't see any real benefit for TAC to be lying about the length of the day phase? Like what benefit does scum get from that? Is it likely that he just didn't read the OP carefully? yes. Hell I personally skim read them most of the time.
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