Spoiler General Kingdom Spoiler
- Thread starter Guan Yu
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- Tags cruzeiro > your fav team kaneki & mutin kouen > all ousen ousen>cruzeiro riboku>ousen shin > ouhon wingdom
Kan Mei was a great character, short lived as he was.
His duel with Mou Bu is up there with Shin vs Rin Ko for me.
Speaking of Shin vs Rin Ko - it's been way too long since Shin has had a satisfying duel, imo. Duke Gaku Haku was easy work once Shin figured out how to deal with his gimmick movement. Hou Ken was dissatisfying because a) Hara insists on drawing Shin as toddler-sized against his man-mountain enemies, and b) both were nerfed (I won't even go into the resurrection shit, I didn't like it either). I'm actually struggling to think of a satisfying 1v1 Shin has had since Rin Ko. Gai Mou, maybe? I really liked Kei Sha and Chou Ga Ryuu, but neither were a real threat to him in a fight.
I still think it was a mistake by Hara to not to give him Jyou Ka Ryuu's head at least. Could still happen, but it would've been much more dramatic at Gishi Plains.
His duel with Mou Bu is up there with Shin vs Rin Ko for me.
Speaking of Shin vs Rin Ko - it's been way too long since Shin has had a satisfying duel, imo. Duke Gaku Haku was easy work once Shin figured out how to deal with his gimmick movement. Hou Ken was dissatisfying because a) Hara insists on drawing Shin as toddler-sized against his man-mountain enemies, and b) both were nerfed (I won't even go into the resurrection shit, I didn't like it either). I'm actually struggling to think of a satisfying 1v1 Shin has had since Rin Ko. Gai Mou, maybe? I really liked Kei Sha and Chou Ga Ryuu, but neither were a real threat to him in a fight.
I still think it was a mistake by Hara to not to give him Jyou Ka Ryuu's head at least. Could still happen, but it would've been much more dramatic at Gishi Plains.
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Yeah Shin vs Rinko remains among my favorites. Shin vs Houken had potentialy but it felt short for me with the whole resurrection shit and Shin being nerfed by the time he faced Houoen, at some point facetanking attacks even.
Imo Shin vs Rinko, Ouhon vs Earl Shi, Moubu vs Kanmei remain as the most well drawn duels in Kingdom. Shukai plans had some dope exchanges too tho with Gyoun, Bananji too.
I remember having read that at some point he wanted Riboku to be the main protagonist too. With Qin eventually conquering the states, Riboku as the MC would mean a tragic end for his story, so he probably opted for Shin as the MC for Qin, a guy who isn't much known for in history which gives him more freedom to write outside of history
Imo Shin vs Rinko, Ouhon vs Earl Shi, Moubu vs Kanmei remain as the most well drawn duels in Kingdom. Shukai plans had some dope exchanges too tho with Gyoun, Bananji too.
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I remember having read that at some point he wanted Riboku to be the main protagonist too. With Qin eventually conquering the states, Riboku as the MC would mean a tragic end for his story, so he probably opted for Shin as the MC for Qin, a guy who isn't much known for in history which gives him more freedom to write outside of history
Swords and spears, man. Swords and spears. Clubs are cool too.
Shin's fight went downhill when he became 24/7 glaive bum. Glaive battles can be good - e.g. Ou Ki vs Hou Ken - but they also let Hara get away with drawing stationary fighters. They're also inherently more limited in versatility. It's why a lot of Hara's duels just look the same now.
I wish Shin had allowed his childish obsession from youth with swords and armour inform his fighting style as someone more versatile - someone who could switch from sword to dual wielding (e.g. using Rin Ko's curve blade to parry), switch to sword and shield (like in my avi, and using Duke Hyou's eventually) and even shield and glaive (once Hara allowed him a growth spurt).
That certainly tracks. Hara is, I think, very clearly sympathetic to Ri Boku, who is undoubtedly a tragic figure.
Perhaps Hara didn't go with writing from Ri Boku's perspective for the same reason he has (in my view, of course) whitewashed and sanitised aspects of Qin and the Warring States Era - the history is just so fucking bleak.
We just have to read this stuff on a weekly basis. Hara is the one that has to actually research, read and write about it in the manga. That's just a theory, and not a good one I admit.
Shin's fight went downhill when he became 24/7 glaive bum. Glaive battles can be good - e.g. Ou Ki vs Hou Ken - but they also let Hara get away with drawing stationary fighters. They're also inherently more limited in versatility. It's why a lot of Hara's duels just look the same now.
I wish Shin had allowed his childish obsession from youth with swords and armour inform his fighting style as someone more versatile - someone who could switch from sword to dual wielding (e.g. using Rin Ko's curve blade to parry), switch to sword and shield (like in my avi, and using Duke Hyou's eventually) and even shield and glaive (once Hara allowed him a growth spurt).
That certainly tracks. Hara is, I think, very clearly sympathetic to Ri Boku, who is undoubtedly a tragic figure.
Perhaps Hara didn't go with writing from Ri Boku's perspective for the same reason he has (in my view, of course) whitewashed and sanitised aspects of Qin and the Warring States Era - the history is just so fucking bleak.
We just have to read this stuff on a weekly basis. Hara is the one that has to actually research, read and write about it in the manga. That's just a theory, and not a good one I admit.
Nah, I would much rather see the Seika Army at full strength with all of their Generals together for one big royal rumble against a big arse Qin Army. Lol.
Besides, JKR's men are probably the kind to go completely ape shit if their commander is slain. Tis probably best that Shin slammed the bloke into the ground rather than cleaved him in half while his own army still needed to escape from the trap.
Besides, JKR's men are probably the kind to go completely ape shit if their commander is slain. Tis probably best that Shin slammed the bloke into the ground rather than cleaved him in half while his own army still needed to escape from the trap.
We'll probably just have to wait and see if Hara provides more context, or not.
I may have to rephrase my words. Kanki's goal first and foremost is to cause as much misery to the middle and upper class as possible for revenge. He said as much in chapter 740. There is no finish line and he will sacrifice his own men (or at least the foot soldiers) if it means continuing his rampage. This hasn't changed.
However, from my interpretation of the new information Hara has provided us recently in regards to Kanki, there is a new layer to his character, in which I do believe he gets some form of satisfaction (perhaps subconsciously) of bringing garbage dwelling people with similar backgrounds as himself being elevated from that position to something more fierce and powerful where nobody can manipulate their lives as they please.
I absolutely don't believe he's doing it out of love or care for them. He obviously doesn't give a fuck about losing most of his army in campaigns lol. Perhaps it's him projecting his own traumatized life onto others, not sure.
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung already summarized it, but what Kanki did for the Saki clan who were made up of a bunch of weak kids who were abused by more powerful groups into something terrifying enough to where they can stand on their own two feet. Ringyoku went on a whole monologue on how Kanki had made their lives worth something more than just a group of bandits scrambling just to survive. And the aforementioned Raido realization before his final moments.
Entirely possible that it's all just hogwash from characters that know nothing about Kanki, but sometimes there are important scenes where you can connect two and two together and see that it may not be all BS.
Like with Ei Sei taking back his words after seeing Kanki's face about feeling hopeless about humans. As well as during the Kanki vs Kochou interaction, where Kaman notes the following...
Hope that explains why I believe my stance as of now. May have been a poor choice of words but I'm definitely not saying Kanki is out there trying to do good lol. He is a true monster. I just think when we were supposed to think he is 100% evil, Hara has shifted the character to being 95% evil and 5% good.
I do question though the morality of Raido, Koku'ou and Maron before they met Kanki. They seem like the kind of people that would commit the same atrocities that we saw from that adult bandit clan from that Kanki flashback. I think there definitely is some hypocracy going on, which I'm questioning if it was a writing mistake or something that we don't know about yet.
Pretty good debate though. Also...
This partially why I believe...
I may have to rephrase my words. Kanki's goal first and foremost is to cause as much misery to the middle and upper class as possible for revenge. He said as much in chapter 740. There is no finish line and he will sacrifice his own men (or at least the foot soldiers) if it means continuing his rampage. This hasn't changed.
However, from my interpretation of the new information Hara has provided us recently in regards to Kanki, there is a new layer to his character, in which I do believe he gets some form of satisfaction (perhaps subconsciously) of bringing garbage dwelling people with similar backgrounds as himself being elevated from that position to something more fierce and powerful where nobody can manipulate their lives as they please.
I absolutely don't believe he's doing it out of love or care for them. He obviously doesn't give a fuck about losing most of his army in campaigns lol. Perhaps it's him projecting his own traumatized life onto others, not sure.
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung already summarized it, but what Kanki did for the Saki clan who were made up of a bunch of weak kids who were abused by more powerful groups into something terrifying enough to where they can stand on their own two feet. Ringyoku went on a whole monologue on how Kanki had made their lives worth something more than just a group of bandits scrambling just to survive. And the aforementioned Raido realization before his final moments.
Entirely possible that it's all just hogwash from characters that know nothing about Kanki, but sometimes there are important scenes where you can connect two and two together and see that it may not be all BS.
Like with Ei Sei taking back his words after seeing Kanki's face about feeling hopeless about humans. As well as during the Kanki vs Kochou interaction, where Kaman notes the following...
Hope that explains why I believe my stance as of now. May have been a poor choice of words but I'm definitely not saying Kanki is out there trying to do good lol. He is a true monster. I just think when we were supposed to think he is 100% evil, Hara has shifted the character to being 95% evil and 5% good.
I do question though the morality of Raido, Koku'ou and Maron before they met Kanki. They seem like the kind of people that would commit the same atrocities that we saw from that adult bandit clan from that Kanki flashback. I think there definitely is some hypocracy going on, which I'm questioning if it was a writing mistake or something that we don't know about yet.
Pretty good debate though. Also...
This partially why I believe...
That Ousen will be the true final threat of the series. I don't think Shin can cement himself as the GOAT just purely from the unification, because it was a team effort from all the Qin 6 members. Ousen will take control of the Qi military for his revolt against Qin to come to fruition, and we get Ri Shin vs Ousen to fully establish Shin as the greatest under the heavens
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That all three Seika commanders that showed up (not counting a LT no one cares about) wound up injured and dismounted but not dead was anticlimactic, especially given the dramatic and dire situation at the time.
I would've preferred it had Hara written Shin killing Jyou Ka Ryuu leading to a much needed morale boost (basically allowing Shin to have his Ou Ki moment), but more than that, Shin slaying JKR at Gishi Plains would've laid down the groundwork for a bunch of things to make future Seika Army appearances more interesting.
JKR's death could've made room for Fuu On to ascend to general and join Fu Tei and SSJ as Zhao's trio of talented young generals.
JKR's death could've led to a scene where, in the aftermath of this arc, Fuu On and Gaku Shou returned to Seika with JKR's body, upon which time SBS would learn who killed him, thus forming a personal connection between Shin and SBS. Hara could've even coincided SBS's face reveal with him vowing to avenge JKR by taking Shin's head.
As it stands, the Seika Army didn't come out of his fight looking all that impressive given their superior numbers, fresh troops and high morale weren't enough to stop the HSA and GKA from breaking out and injuring their leaders as they did so. Linking the armies in mutual enmity going forward could've been interesting: the HSA hating the Seika Army and vice versa, and it basically leading to a really bloody battle in the future.
I would've preferred it had Hara written Shin killing Jyou Ka Ryuu leading to a much needed morale boost (basically allowing Shin to have his Ou Ki moment), but more than that, Shin slaying JKR at Gishi Plains would've laid down the groundwork for a bunch of things to make future Seika Army appearances more interesting.
JKR's death could've made room for Fuu On to ascend to general and join Fu Tei and SSJ as Zhao's trio of talented young generals.
JKR's death could've led to a scene where, in the aftermath of this arc, Fuu On and Gaku Shou returned to Seika with JKR's body, upon which time SBS would learn who killed him, thus forming a personal connection between Shin and SBS. Hara could've even coincided SBS's face reveal with him vowing to avenge JKR by taking Shin's head.
As it stands, the Seika Army didn't come out of his fight looking all that impressive given their superior numbers, fresh troops and high morale weren't enough to stop the HSA and GKA from breaking out and injuring their leaders as they did so. Linking the armies in mutual enmity going forward could've been interesting: the HSA hating the Seika Army and vice versa, and it basically leading to a really bloody battle in the future.
Yea for sure I gotchu bro.
But I think the whole "He's not 100% evil, there's some good in him", has been going on since pretty much his introduction.
-> The fact that good man Mougou of all people chose to have him as an underling. Implying there's some redeeming qualities about him. And then of course we see him show Mougou respect and what not after he dies.
-> Choutou interaction. Like you're never gonna get this from somebody fully evil or whatever.
Maybe there's more to it when we get Kanki's own personal flashback. But so far it's really nothing new, except for his words not going with his actions. I mean we still don't know how he feels about Choutou's words right now, the relationship/bond he had with Mougou how that was like, etc etc. Maybe information on that will change my mind about this character. But as it is right now, just need him outta the series. So we can get the real generals.
But I think the whole "He's not 100% evil, there's some good in him", has been going on since pretty much his introduction.
-> The fact that good man Mougou of all people chose to have him as an underling. Implying there's some redeeming qualities about him. And then of course we see him show Mougou respect and what not after he dies.
-> Choutou interaction. Like you're never gonna get this from somebody fully evil or whatever.
Maybe there's more to it when we get Kanki's own personal flashback. But so far it's really nothing new, except for his words not going with his actions. I mean we still don't know how he feels about Choutou's words right now, the relationship/bond he had with Mougou how that was like, etc etc. Maybe information on that will change my mind about this character. But as it is right now, just need him outta the series. So we can get the real generals.
Yea for sure I gotchu bro.
But I think the whole "He's not 100% evil, there's some good in him", has been going on since pretty much his introduction.
-> The fact that good man Mougou of all people chose to have him as an underling. Implying there's some redeeming qualities about him. And then of course we see him show Mougou respect and what not after he dies.
-> Choutou interaction. Like you're never gonna get this from somebody fully evil or whatever.
Maybe there's more to it when we get Kanki's own personal flashback. But so far it's really nothing new, except for his words not going with his actions. I mean we still don't know how he feels about Choutou's words right now, the relationship/bond he had with Mougou how that was like, etc etc. Maybe information on that will change my mind about this character. But as it is right now, just need him outta the series. So we can get the real generals.
But I think the whole "He's not 100% evil, there's some good in him", has been going on since pretty much his introduction.
-> The fact that good man Mougou of all people chose to have him as an underling. Implying there's some redeeming qualities about him. And then of course we see him show Mougou respect and what not after he dies.
-> Choutou interaction. Like you're never gonna get this from somebody fully evil or whatever.
Maybe there's more to it when we get Kanki's own personal flashback. But so far it's really nothing new, except for his words not going with his actions. I mean we still don't know how he feels about Choutou's words right now, the relationship/bond he had with Mougou how that was like, etc etc. Maybe information on that will change my mind about this character. But as it is right now, just need him outta the series. So we can get the real generals.
After the most recent chapter, what I am starting to think Kanki's weakness is, is perhaps an inability to accept any kind of loss whether it be a tactical loss or a personal one.
Bear with me now for I am going to get into the more spiritual side of Kingdom that some folk apparently dislike. Lol.
As I said before, whatever weakness Kanki has was never attributed to his army, his methods or his tactics but to himself as an individual.
Loss is a large part of how people grow in Kingdom (and in real life). The entire "Weight of a General" deal is rooted in an individual carrying on the legacies of those who were dear to them but in order to carry on said legacies, the character has to accept their loss in the first place.
I think Kanki's problem is that he cannot accept loss and I believe Hara alluded to this when Shin first met him.
Shin immediately noted something strange about Kanki when he first met him.
A "sense of rejection" was what Shin felt towards Kanki. Shin has dealt with bloodlust, crushing auras, Mangoku's ghosts and the Weight of Great Generals yet something about Kanki immediately set him on edge. What I think Shin unknowingly sensed was that Kanki is the complete opposite of him.
Shin obviously is all about the concept of "Weight", the whole deal of carrying around legacies etc. You know the deal.
Houken was the opposite of Shin in that he refused emotional attachments altogether. Kanki however is different from Houken because he doesn't reject emotional attachments as shown by how Raido's death has affected him and is now affecting his judgement.
Kanki (either knowingly or unknowingly) embraces attachment but cannot handle nor accept loss thus he ends up casting aside and "rejecting" the legacies of those that were close to him.
A person like that is exactly the kind of individual that Shin would detest and "reject" on an instinctual level.
Kanki even possibly goes so far as to project this weakness of his onto others, belittling others for supposedly not understanding how "grown ups do things".
In battle too, Kanki refuses to back down no matter what utterly insane odds are stacked against him yet he ultimately wants to risk nothing that is actually close to him. That is why he sent Ogiko to warn Raido not to do anything reckless and to sit back because he knew that Raido, who is arguably the only one of Kanki's inner circle that is genuinely loyal to the man hence why Kanki is probably attached to the bloke, would do anything to prevent Kanki's defeat.
Kanki is a character that we have never gotten to truly know so far. Kanki masks his inner self with an aura of charm and confidence that he wears like a glove, though his charm is arguably superficial and now his confidence has been tested and appears to have broken instantly.
Essentially, Kanki is acting like a child because he is one. He is someone that has never matured and can neither handle nor accept genuine loss. He hates losing and cannot stand being defeated in battle nor losing those he cares for despite his inherently dangerous occupation of being in a literal army.
What we are now witnessing with Kanki is not character development or character change but rather a character reveal. We are finally seeing the real Kanki that is deliberately hidden beneath layers of superficial charm, smug arrogance, brittle confidence and inflated ego.
If all that sounds like a rather ugly combination, well... Hasn't Kanki been built up to be a rather ugly individual?
Bear with me now for I am going to get into the more spiritual side of Kingdom that some folk apparently dislike. Lol.
As I said before, whatever weakness Kanki has was never attributed to his army, his methods or his tactics but to himself as an individual.
Loss is a large part of how people grow in Kingdom (and in real life). The entire "Weight of a General" deal is rooted in an individual carrying on the legacies of those who were dear to them but in order to carry on said legacies, the character has to accept their loss in the first place.
I think Kanki's problem is that he cannot accept loss and I believe Hara alluded to this when Shin first met him.
Shin immediately noted something strange about Kanki when he first met him.
Shin obviously is all about the concept of "Weight", the whole deal of carrying around legacies etc. You know the deal.
Houken was the opposite of Shin in that he refused emotional attachments altogether. Kanki however is different from Houken because he doesn't reject emotional attachments as shown by how Raido's death has affected him and is now affecting his judgement.
Kanki (either knowingly or unknowingly) embraces attachment but cannot handle nor accept loss thus he ends up casting aside and "rejecting" the legacies of those that were close to him.
A person like that is exactly the kind of individual that Shin would detest and "reject" on an instinctual level.
Kanki even possibly goes so far as to project this weakness of his onto others, belittling others for supposedly not understanding how "grown ups do things".
Kanki is a character that we have never gotten to truly know so far. Kanki masks his inner self with an aura of charm and confidence that he wears like a glove, though his charm is arguably superficial and now his confidence has been tested and appears to have broken instantly.
Essentially, Kanki is acting like a child because he is one. He is someone that has never matured and can neither handle nor accept genuine loss. He hates losing and cannot stand being defeated in battle nor losing those he cares for despite his inherently dangerous occupation of being in a literal army.
What we are now witnessing with Kanki is not character development or character change but rather a character reveal. We are finally seeing the real Kanki that is deliberately hidden beneath layers of superficial charm, smug arrogance, brittle confidence and inflated ego.
If all that sounds like a rather ugly combination, well... Hasn't Kanki been built up to be a rather ugly individual?
Kan Ki is a classic example of a weakling and a bully, he's incapable of processing his own trauma in a healthy way, so he chooses to take out his pain and anger at the world on those weaker and more vulnerable than him.
His attempt to couch that in edgelord, realpolitik sophistry was as laughable as it was predictable. Boring even, but that's cynicism for you - predictable and boring. Ei Sei was right not to entertain his bullshit.
Kan Ki despises people that put on airs and lie - consciously or otherwise.
Chou Tou was a straight shooter that spoke his mind and didn't mince words. He was true to himself and Kan Ki respected that.
His final interaction with Chou Tou was not a reflection of some inner goodness, but an acknowledgement Chou Tou had earned his respect.
His attempt to couch that in edgelord, realpolitik sophistry was as laughable as it was predictable. Boring even, but that's cynicism for you - predictable and boring. Ei Sei was right not to entertain his bullshit.
Kan Ki despises people that put on airs and lie - consciously or otherwise.
Chou Tou was a straight shooter that spoke his mind and didn't mince words. He was true to himself and Kan Ki respected that.
His final interaction with Chou Tou was not a reflection of some inner goodness, but an acknowledgement Chou Tou had earned his respect.
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Kingdom Spoilers & RAW Chapter 745 | Read Kingdom Manga Online
please tell me riboku is finally dead?
please tell me riboku is finally dead?
More gore and viscera isn't what I had in mind. I think the level Kingdom is at is fine (though I prefer the early stuff). I was getting more at the actual content of the manga. I'm not particularly enthused by the idea of reading a super bleak version of Kingdom, but like I said, there's a balance that needs to be struck - in my opinion, of course.
I think that balance went off the wayside once Hara dropped the political intrigue elements that were so prevalent in the early days. We got some of that around the succession of King Tou Jou and Kaku Kai's machinations, but I would like that be a much more consistent element within the series. I want to see the dynamics at play between the states at various levels.
As it stands, Kingdom has settled - for a while now - in the cadence of one battle after the other without really stopping to examine the impacts on any satisfying level if at all.
I think that balance went off the wayside once Hara dropped the political intrigue elements that were so prevalent in the early days. We got some of that around the succession of King Tou Jou and Kaku Kai's machinations, but I would like that be a much more consistent element within the series. I want to see the dynamics at play between the states at various levels.
As it stands, Kingdom has settled - for a while now - in the cadence of one battle after the other without really stopping to examine the impacts on any satisfying level if at all.
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Chapter 745 raw :
https://cubari.moe/read/imgur/2lf6wgo/1/1/
https://cubari.moe/read/imgur/2lf6wgo/1/1/
@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung @TheKnightOfTheSea @Blackbeard @God Buggy @RayanOO @Jailer @Rumble @Dark Admiral @SakazOuki @MarineHQ @Great General Kanki @Monet @Koro @Malio @Bepo @Bullet @Y-foe @Ninjashadow0209 @NikaInParis @Krusher1357 @kratosś @Xlaw @Yo Tan Wa @Warchief Sanji D Goat @centurion @Nidai_Kitetsu @Greenbeard @Seth @kom5 @Topi Jerami @ℍ𝕒𝕠𝕤𝕙𝕠𝕜𝕦
