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Don't know what's happening XD
Hitherto unknown in these bountiful lands has been a criminal as miserable as Queen dowager @Kiwipom . For whom I withhold not but endless malice which burns hotter than a spurned son! Hereforth I declare, as chief physician of these lands that thy monarch is but wicked and unright! In body and mind, she is corrupted thoroughly! The cruelty shown to thee’s loyal subjects of whom wish to do no further than seek adoration reveals her hideous nature! I take umbrage with this tyrant for whom we have tolerated and her cadre of dopeless lackeys of Finalbeta, Queen and Cinera, for whom we can only assume has such lofty goals as removing our heads and sowing our lands with chaos! Nay! Nay I say! We shan’t be kept in such isolated doom, for I propose hope! Hope beyond the menace of Kiwipom the Cruel and the abysmal evils that fester under her treacherous tenure! For the wise and ever clear minded Al Sama is here, for whom I shall follow and name King! King of our kingdom and King of all Kings, for who all others of the Blue Dragon, mine own guild of great worship, shall follow! Beleaguered our hope may be by thyn cruel masters and forces of chaos, further strained via the foul maiden Flowa’s reads of which reek of morning manure, there be not darkness for the kingdom of the Blue Dragon! Our destiny is greater still, with which we shall claim through hands of justice! Follow me now, further into victory and cast away these chains of oppression and let not our eyes be cast towards the temptations of our vile monarch!
This is great. Let's Lynch TAC and see who among @Natalija and Flower is Scum. 
Both of them could be Scum, but it would be an extremely big brained move. At any rate, unless there's a role that can frame roles or there's a role that can redirect (without informing the redirected player that they were redirected) it is very unlikely that this is Town vs Town.
I would recommend Lynching TAC instead:
Whereas if we Lynch Flower:
Looking at the above:
Suspicions aside, I think a TAC Lynch is strictly better. However, looking at the earlier posts, I'm going to catch up to Day 1 and reevaluate.
Both of them could be Scum, but it would be an extremely big brained move. At any rate, unless there's a role that can frame roles or there's a role that can redirect (without informing the redirected player that they were redirected) it is very unlikely that this is Town vs Town.
I would recommend Lynching TAC instead:
- If TAC is Scum it strongly suggests Flower is Town and Natalija is Scum.
- If TAC is Town, it strongly suggests Flower is Scum and Natalija is Town.
Whereas if we Lynch Flower:
- If she's Town, it strongly suggests both TAC and Natalija are Scum.
- It gives the two Scum and extra night to act.
- If she's Scum, it strongly suggests Natalija is Town, but doesn't say much about TAC.
Looking at the above:
- A TAC Lynch would give us more information on two players.
- It prevents the scenario where we leave Two Scum free to act at Night.
- I prefer prioritising initial claims.
Suspicions aside, I think a TAC Lynch is strictly better. However, looking at the earlier posts, I'm going to catch up to Day 1 and reevaluate.
Tho yes i would suggest all to give special focus to these 4 players posts, and if they are consistent or not. Tac, NW, Natalija n Flower.
You just claimed that you know Unseen is not in the game though?
Why would we need DA's flip to tell his alignment if you're an Invest role and already know what the Scum faction is?
Why would we need DA's flip to tell his alignment if you're an Invest role and already know what the Scum faction is?
I was jailed last night—so anyone investigating me should probably receive "your target was jailed" message, no? I'm not entirely clear, but if it operates like Town of Salem, then that should be the conclusion drawn.
Also, @Cinera feels awfully scummy to me. He's jumping on lynching me very quickly and defending Flowa despite two other players coming out to contradict Flower's statements independently. One who claims to have looked into Flowers and another who debates Flower's entire accusation. Why Cinera believes I am the ideal lynch to validate a liar is beyond me. If anything, lynching Flower's gives us three pieces of info;
My conclusion for this phase is thoroughly this;
Flowers is either being pressured via some ability to call me scummy. It's not unusual to see abilities in game that force a player to be very suspicious of another. I.E., if our scum faction has an ability that compels Flowers to do everything in her power to lynch me or she gets mod killed.
Flowers is jester.
Flowers is scum and is somehow thinking this is a good push. IMO, I think her push is weak and for an experienced player it doesn't make sense for her to state such a claim. I suppose she was hoping no one would have looked into her like @Natalija claimed to? But even then—surely spouting out that I belong to a wrong faction would alert the proper investigators of what's wrong. I.E., calling me Unseen if we have Cult (which @NeutralWatcher seems to be suggesting heavily we do) is a horrible move for any scum to pull.
It is my opinion that Flowers could be town that is being forced to sus me / work her damndest to get me lynched for this player phase. What has me suspicious is how @Cinera throws logic to the wind and immediately supports her despite the controversial methods and contradictions surrounding Flowers.
Also, @Cinera feels awfully scummy to me. He's jumping on lynching me very quickly and defending Flowa despite two other players coming out to contradict Flower's statements independently. One who claims to have looked into Flowers and another who debates Flower's entire accusation. Why Cinera believes I am the ideal lynch to validate a liar is beyond me. If anything, lynching Flower's gives us three pieces of info;
- Whether or not we have Unseen/Cult (via her role, if she is invest)
- Whether or not I am scum
- Whether or not @Natalija is scum (based on her statements about Flowa's role)
- Whether or not @NeutralWatcher is scum (based on his statements of our opposing faction)
My conclusion for this phase is thoroughly this;
Flowers is either being pressured via some ability to call me scummy. It's not unusual to see abilities in game that force a player to be very suspicious of another. I.E., if our scum faction has an ability that compels Flowers to do everything in her power to lynch me or she gets mod killed.
Flowers is jester.
Flowers is scum and is somehow thinking this is a good push. IMO, I think her push is weak and for an experienced player it doesn't make sense for her to state such a claim. I suppose she was hoping no one would have looked into her like @Natalija claimed to? But even then—surely spouting out that I belong to a wrong faction would alert the proper investigators of what's wrong. I.E., calling me Unseen if we have Cult (which @NeutralWatcher seems to be suggesting heavily we do) is a horrible move for any scum to pull.
It is my opinion that Flowers could be town that is being forced to sus me / work her damndest to get me lynched for this player phase. What has me suspicious is how @Cinera throws logic to the wind and immediately supports her despite the controversial methods and contradictions surrounding Flowers.
So in short, I'm thinking Cinera is scum for agreeing with @Flower so early. Flower's move doesn't make sense for scum, because they (Scum) should be aware that any investigative role will flip and out Flowers for lying about the scum faction.
Only way this makes sense is if they're trying to locate our town investigators. Which, it could be. But I think Flowers is being forced to say what she's saying.
Vote Lynch @Cinera
Only way this makes sense is if they're trying to locate our town investigators. Which, it could be. But I think Flowers is being forced to say what she's saying.
Vote Lynch @Cinera
no announcement if someone was successfully converted or not ?
at least give us that much
will look into the flower natalija claims irc natalija hinted at her role a bit too much in the argument with dark admiral. flower lynch on dark wasnt something I fully supported. give me some time to go back and read through lads , we can figure something out.
at least give us that much
will look into the flower natalija claims irc natalija hinted at her role a bit too much in the argument with dark admiral. flower lynch on dark wasnt something I fully supported. give me some time to go back and read through lads , we can figure something out.
I am confident @NeutralWatcher is town. His claim would immediately be contradicted by any other TI present. @Natalija is also town for speaking up so fast and voluntarily giving away abilities she has, making her accountable in the future should we pry into her. As in—now that we know what she can do, we can ask her for routine updates and if any player feels like Nat's reads are off? It's easy to call her out on it and have her lynched for lying.
She's too open about her abilities/mechanics.
She's too open about her abilities/mechanics.
swear to god I hate this dude .
Tac was jailed he said, is that a blue dragon role?
I understand nuetral's hesistance
if his role isnt immune to conversion he wouldnt want to reveal what he is so boldy. be careful with thath.
when natalija hinted at her role yesterday flower why didnt you take her on?
for now VOTE LYNCH FLOWER.
neutral are you saying you knew whether we had cult or unseen from day one or after the night action?
Tac was jailed he said, is that a blue dragon role?
I understand nuetral's hesistance
if his role isnt immune to conversion he wouldnt want to reveal what he is so boldy. be careful with thath.
when natalija hinted at her role yesterday flower why didnt you take her on?
for now VOTE LYNCH FLOWER.
neutral are you saying you knew whether we had cult or unseen from day one or after the night action?
@krogothwolf Corrected me on this point—neither faction has automatic Day 1 kill. They need to convert to get the kill mechanic.
No matter who is lynched—myself or Flowers—the information is exactly the same. The only reason you have to press a lynch on me in this situation is if you believe Flowers here. Which is becoming less and less believable, considering the claims of two townies which contradicts her on two points. But you ignore that.
Your push on me is way too hard for the information present.
This is great. Let's Lynch TAC and see who among @Natalija and Flower is Scum.
Both of them could be Scum, but it would be an extremely big brained move. At any rate, unless there's a role that can frame roles or there's a role that can redirect (without informing the redirected player that they were redirected) it is very unlikely that this is Town vs Town.
I would recommend Lynching TAC instead:
Whereas if we Lynch Flower:
Looking at the above:
Suspicions aside, I think a TAC Lynch is strictly better. However, looking at the earlier posts, I'm going to catch up to Day 1 and reevaluate.
Both of them could be Scum, but it would be an extremely big brained move. At any rate, unless there's a role that can frame roles or there's a role that can redirect (without informing the redirected player that they were redirected) it is very unlikely that this is Town vs Town.
I would recommend Lynching TAC instead:
- If TAC is Scum it strongly suggests Flower is Town and Natalija is Scum.
- If TAC is Town, it strongly suggests Flower is Scum and Natalija is Town.
Whereas if we Lynch Flower:
- If she's Town, it strongly suggests both TAC and Natalija are Scum.
- It gives the two Scum and extra night to act.
- If she's Scum, it strongly suggests Natalija is Town, but doesn't say much about TAC.
Looking at the above:
- A TAC Lynch would give us more information on two players.
- It prevents the scenario where we leave Two Scum free to act at Night.
- I prefer prioritising initial claims.
Suspicions aside, I think a TAC Lynch is strictly better. However, looking at the earlier posts, I'm going to catch up to Day 1 and reevaluate.
Your push on me is way too hard for the information present.
I would not recommend lynching Flower.
There is no long term benefit to scum making a false accusation against me, getting me lynched (and revealed as town), in a game where our investigators are decided solely by which opposing faction there is.
It was established in Day 1 time and time again that Paladin/Sheriff is unique to which opponents we face here. So for Flower to outright make a wrong claim on who I am is fishy, because that's ripe to be called out on.
My suggestion? Jailer jails Flower tonight and asks her her role. In previous games, you cannot say you were forced to push for a player. Flower will never be able to admit that she's being compelled to lynch me this day phase. But, if she claims ANOTHER ROLE that contradicts her invest claim to the jailer, that's a sure fire clue that Flower was being forced into pushing for me in such a sloppy way.
And if the jailer isn't convinced? He kills her. If Jailer's mechanics are similar to those of Town of Salem (a game very much like this—for all who do not know) then those in jail are protected from any outside effects while being jailed. So Flower can't be corrupted and flip Cult if she's executed in jail.
There is no long term benefit to scum making a false accusation against me, getting me lynched (and revealed as town), in a game where our investigators are decided solely by which opposing faction there is.
It was established in Day 1 time and time again that Paladin/Sheriff is unique to which opponents we face here. So for Flower to outright make a wrong claim on who I am is fishy, because that's ripe to be called out on.
My suggestion? Jailer jails Flower tonight and asks her her role. In previous games, you cannot say you were forced to push for a player. Flower will never be able to admit that she's being compelled to lynch me this day phase. But, if she claims ANOTHER ROLE that contradicts her invest claim to the jailer, that's a sure fire clue that Flower was being forced into pushing for me in such a sloppy way.
And if the jailer isn't convinced? He kills her. If Jailer's mechanics are similar to those of Town of Salem (a game very much like this—for all who do not know) then those in jail are protected from any outside effects while being jailed. So Flower can't be corrupted and flip Cult if she's executed in jail.
Jesus wept, the more I look into powers, the more it seems like anyone can do anything.
Cult: Apostle - Target player will receive framed results from using investigative abilities tonight. AND Disable target player's voting for the day, then force them to vote for a different target player.
I don't know about jail, but what a Cult Invoker can do: - Occupy target player tonight. They will be prevented from taking any actions tonight.
I'm pretty sure we have Cult here. Unless if this is the game play of more experienced players. I'll leave it to you guys, I dunno
Cult: Apostle - Target player will receive framed results from using investigative abilities tonight. AND Disable target player's voting for the day, then force them to vote for a different target player.
I don't know about jail, but what a Cult Invoker can do: - Occupy target player tonight. They will be prevented from taking any actions tonight.
I'm pretty sure we have Cult here. Unless if this is the game play of more experienced players. I'll leave it to you guys, I dunno
I'm on mobile now, so this wouldn't be as detailed a reply as I would like. @TheAncientCenturion I'll dissect your post in full tomorrow when I'm on my PC. I wanted to go to sleep, but I can't really risk a wagon building on me overnight. 
Are you sure? Doesn't Unseen have the Assassin role?
I wrote my piece about Lynching you for information before @NeutralWatcher counterclaimed Flower. After @NeutralWatcher counterclaimed her, the information calculus changed and she became more suspicious as I admitted here:
After satisfying my curiosity regarding a perceived discrepancy in @NeutralWatcher's counterclaim (why he was so suspicious of Dark Admiral if he knew Unseen could not be in the game) I went on to vote Flower:
Your case against me is built on older posts of mine where I suspected you because of Flower's claim. However, when I wrote that piece I had yet to read @NeutralWatcher's counterclaim. I unvoted you after I did, and then further investigated said counterclaim before deciding to vote Flower.
I do not understand your case against me giving the above, and your hypothesis regarding Flower sounds incredibly far fetched to me. I always endorse Occam's razor. There has been no reason to assume such a remarkably complex hypothesis to explain Flower's case against you. It's such an on it's face ridiculous theory.
Honestly, trying so hard to defend Flower and on such a flimsy basis makes me Scum read you.
Are you sure? Doesn't Unseen have the Assassin role?
I wrote my piece about Lynching you for information before @NeutralWatcher counterclaimed Flower. After @NeutralWatcher counterclaimed her, the information calculus changed and she became more suspicious as I admitted here:
After satisfying my curiosity regarding a perceived discrepancy in @NeutralWatcher's counterclaim (why he was so suspicious of Dark Admiral if he knew Unseen could not be in the game) I went on to vote Flower:
Your case against me is built on older posts of mine where I suspected you because of Flower's claim. However, when I wrote that piece I had yet to read @NeutralWatcher's counterclaim. I unvoted you after I did, and then further investigated said counterclaim before deciding to vote Flower.
I do not understand your case against me giving the above, and your hypothesis regarding Flower sounds incredibly far fetched to me. I always endorse Occam's razor. There has been no reason to assume such a remarkably complex hypothesis to explain Flower's case against you. It's such an on it's face ridiculous theory.
Honestly, trying so hard to defend Flower and on such a flimsy basis makes me Scum read you.
Your bullheadedness and eagerness to go after me has cemented you as scum for me. You jumped on too quickly and had zero gripes with how sketchy it seemed. Even your logic was flawed and based on the fact you believed I was scum, in regards to lynching me for info. Lynching Flower or Me would yield the same result and Flower has more reason to go. This came after @NeutralWatcher spoke up, if I recall correctly*.
*I'm correct
This is great. Let's Lynch TAC and see who among @Natalija and Flower is Scum.
Both of them could be Scum, but it would be an extremely big brained move. At any rate, unless there's a role that can frame roles or there's a role that can redirect (without informing the redirected player that they were redirected) it is very unlikely that this is Town vs Town.
I would recommend Lynching TAC instead:
Whereas if we Lynch Flower:
Looking at the above:
Suspicions aside, I think a TAC Lynch is strictly better. However, looking at the earlier posts, I'm going to catch up to Day 1 and reevaluate.
Both of them could be Scum, but it would be an extremely big brained move. At any rate, unless there's a role that can frame roles or there's a role that can redirect (without informing the redirected player that they were redirected) it is very unlikely that this is Town vs Town.
I would recommend Lynching TAC instead:
- If TAC is Scum it strongly suggests Flower is Town and Natalija is Scum.
- If TAC is Town, it strongly suggests Flower is Scum and Natalija is Town.
Whereas if we Lynch Flower:
- If she's Town, it strongly suggests both TAC and Natalija are Scum.
- It gives the two Scum and extra night to act.
- If she's Scum, it strongly suggests Natalija is Town, but doesn't say much about TAC.
Looking at the above:
- A TAC Lynch would give us more information on two players.
- It prevents the scenario where we leave Two Scum free to act at Night.
- I prefer prioritising initial claims.
Suspicions aside, I think a TAC Lynch is strictly better. However, looking at the earlier posts, I'm going to catch up to Day 1 and reevaluate.
She claimed Sheriff and that she investigated TAC to get an Unseen result.
I do not know that she is not an Investigative Role. I have acknowledged your claim result, but I can't exactly trust it.
I want to Lynch TAC because it appears to me that his Lynch would be more informative than a Flower Lynch. Lynching for information is not only solid Mafia strategy in general, it is consistent with how I play Mafia in particular.
Bussing this early in the game (especially to a player that wasn't undergoing significant suspicion) is a very big brained move. I think it's more risky when you start out the game with only two players. I do agree that it doesn't confirm Flower as Town, but it would strongly suggest it. Especially if TAC flipped Unseen in particular.
The main caveat to the low expected utility of bussing is that Unseen can convert at night (and they have a maximum number of members), so the calculus on bussing a teammate changes. If you can gain significant Town cred, sacrificing an innocuous teammate is useful.
The counter caveat would be that because of said conversion mechanics, gaining long term credibility is not a thing. Bussing a teammate gains you Town cred for maybe a day or two, but you can be converted, so you can't expect anyone to Town read you because you earlier bussed a Teammate.
One of the scenarios in which bussing is rational is when the Scum faction has reached their maximum number of members (thus, they can't convert anymore members until they lose one), but this is clearly not the case as Scum would have made at most 1 Convert by now.
Her actions could have been redirected. I agree that a newbie challenging a claim right of the bat would be very surprising if they didn't have reasons to doubt the claim.
@NeutralWatcher claims that they know Unseen is not in the game. This is his entire interaction with Flower leading to his vote for her:
@Natalija has also cast suspicion on Flower:
On another note, @Natalija how do you know we have Cult in this game?
Given that two players are staking claims that directly challenge her narrative, I find her more suspicious than TAC. I was willing to Lynch TAC when neither appeared particularly more suspicious but his Lynch appeared informative, but that isn't the case anymore.
I'll be unvoting for now, but I'll probably vote for Flower unless things change.
Unvote.
@Dragomir.
I'll be going to sleep soon, and I need to catch up on Day 1. I may take a backseat until I've done that.
I do not know that she is not an Investigative Role. I have acknowledged your claim result, but I can't exactly trust it.
- You could be Scum.
- You could have had your actions redirected to another player.
I want to Lynch TAC because it appears to me that his Lynch would be more informative than a Flower Lynch. Lynching for information is not only solid Mafia strategy in general, it is consistent with how I play Mafia in particular.
Bussing this early in the game (especially to a player that wasn't undergoing significant suspicion) is a very big brained move. I think it's more risky when you start out the game with only two players. I do agree that it doesn't confirm Flower as Town, but it would strongly suggest it. Especially if TAC flipped Unseen in particular.
The main caveat to the low expected utility of bussing is that Unseen can convert at night (and they have a maximum number of members), so the calculus on bussing a teammate changes. If you can gain significant Town cred, sacrificing an innocuous teammate is useful.
The counter caveat would be that because of said conversion mechanics, gaining long term credibility is not a thing. Bussing a teammate gains you Town cred for maybe a day or two, but you can be converted, so you can't expect anyone to Town read you because you earlier bussed a Teammate.
One of the scenarios in which bussing is rational is when the Scum faction has reached their maximum number of members (thus, they can't convert anymore members until they lose one), but this is clearly not the case as Scum would have made at most 1 Convert by now.
Her actions could have been redirected. I agree that a newbie challenging a claim right of the bat would be very surprising if they didn't have reasons to doubt the claim.
@NeutralWatcher claims that they know Unseen is not in the game. This is his entire interaction with Flower leading to his vote for her:
@Natalija has also cast suspicion on Flower:
On another note, @Natalija how do you know we have Cult in this game?
Given that two players are staking claims that directly challenge her narrative, I find her more suspicious than TAC. I was willing to Lynch TAC when neither appeared particularly more suspicious but his Lynch appeared informative, but that isn't the case anymore.
I'll be unvoting for now, but I'll probably vote for Flower unless things change.
Unvote.
@Dragomir.
I'll be going to sleep soon, and I need to catch up on Day 1. I may take a backseat until I've done that.
The way I see it;
If Flower has been forced to make this statement that NO SCUM IN THEIR RIGHT MIND should make and is lynched as townie, it will then verify my identity as scum—Falsely of course.
So you then pushing for Flower to be lynched really only sets me off Cinera. Your logic is faulty here and I can see an angle for you wanting either myself or Flower lynched, presuming we're both town.
It's entirely possible Flower made a mistake, but I don't buy it. Again, we stressed how Sheriff/Paladin are unique to our adversaries. She, IF SCUM, should not claim the wrong scum team because that will be called out instantly. You jumping to support her and pushing hard to get me lynched is off, it'd then lead to Flower being seen as guilty.
Out of everything here, I see you as the biggest scum. Flower isn't dumb enough to make that mistake.
What I think happened is this;
Scum hit Flower with an ability last night, forcing her to sus me / do as much as she can to get me lynched.
This has been something I've been hit with in other Mafia games. It's plausible, especially considering how faulty Flower's case is. What seals this isn't the fact you called her out on it, it's that @NeutralWatcher is claiming she's wrong about the enemy faction.
There is no benefit for Flower, if she is Cult, to call me Unseen. Because we stressed how Paladin/Sheriff in these games will be unique to either opponent. Calling anyone Unseen is a red light and tells Invests to speak up / something is wrong.
Scum hit Flower with an ability last night, forcing her to sus me / do as much as she can to get me lynched.
This has been something I've been hit with in other Mafia games. It's plausible, especially considering how faulty Flower's case is. What seals this isn't the fact you called her out on it, it's that @NeutralWatcher is claiming she's wrong about the enemy faction.
There is no benefit for Flower, if she is Cult, to call me Unseen. Because we stressed how Paladin/Sheriff in these games will be unique to either opponent. Calling anyone Unseen is a red light and tells Invests to speak up / something is wrong.
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