Powers & Abilities Sword skill (without haki) is a myth: Haki makes a master swordsman

Nidai_Kitetsu · Mar 30, 2023

I see the words "sword skills" gets thrown around in One Piece community and we all know its because of the age old debate of Shanks vs Mihawk. Trollda himself fuels such debates by mentioning "sword skill" in Mihawk's bounty poster. I have been thinking a while the meaning of "sword skill" in One Piece context and came to the conclusion that sword skills do not really exist in One Piece, its a myth.

The lack of depth in sword styles in One Piece

In order to discuss sword skills, it is important to consider sword styles first. Lets take the gold standard of sword mangas Rurouni Kenshin for example (If you havent read it yet, start now!). Some of the well known sword styles from Rurouni Kenshin are =>
- Hiten Mitsurigi style: Kenshin's style, a fast-paced style that focuses on agility and speed
- Kamiya Kasshin style: Kaoru's style, thats focused on defense and counters
- Gatotsu: Sword style of the GOAT Hajime Saito, a style that emphasizes speed and precision in order to kill opponents quickly
- Kodachi style: Aoshi's style that use a short sword to create impregnable defense and then attack with martial arts

It is clear that Noburo Watsuki, the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, gave careful consideration to the sword styles portrayed in the manga. These styles are well-defined and tailored to suit the personalities, physical abilities, and weaponry of their respective users. Now lets think about some of the prominent sword styles we got in One Piece =>
- Two sword style: Oden
- Three sword style: Zoro
- Four sword style: Kaku
- Six sword style: Hatchan
- Eight sword style: Hyouzou
- Nine sword style: Asura Kyutoryu

One could argue that Oda is simply adding a new sword and calling it a new style in One Piece, without much thought put into it. Its either Oda was being lazy with the styles or he simply didnt care much. What if sword styles, as well as sword skills, doesnt really matter for a top tier swordsmen? That would explain why sword styles lacking in depth and careful consideration.

There is only one skill exclusive to the "pure" swordsmen

The majority of techniques used by One Piece swordsmen are rooted in various forms of cutting or slashing. Its quite possible that individuals like Roger or Shanks could perform this maneuvers given their strength, skill or agility.

As far as I am concerned, there is only one skill thats exclusive to the so called "pure" swordsmen: the flying slash. This technique was introduced during Skypea when Zoro fought Braham. We have also seen Zoro imbuing haki with a flying slash against Monet. Flying slash is something that probably requires a certain level of skill and I dont see Shanks/Roger replicating it without any practice. However, the haki emission strikes (e.g. kamusari) from Roger/Shanks have a similar function. Is flying slash truly necessary for a swordsman who has haki emission strikes in his arsenal?

Another technique that could potentially be exclusive to "pure" swordsmen is the "iai" technique, which involves drawing the sword quickly and striking in one fluid motion. Zoro has used this technique with his Shishi Sonson attack. However, going forward, I dont see any scenario where a fast draw would impact the outcome of a fight.

The use of Juken - Gentle blade

Perhaps you are thinking, "Well Nidai, we have seen how crucial sword skills can be all the way back in chapter 51" =>

Zoro: It was DEFLECTED. No matter times you shoot him, the outcome will be the same.
He changed the trajectory of the bullet with the tip of his sword.
Pirate: ...who the hell are you?!
Zoro: I've never seen such a graceful sword.
Mihawk: There is no strength in a sword without softness.
Zoro: And you split this ship with that sword as well?
Mihawk: Indeed.

Zoro admired it as if using gentle blade alone made Mihawk the WSS. Unfortunately, Tashigi replicated this feat:

No disrespect to Tashigi, but if she can replicate one of the greatest sword skills, perhaps sword skills dont amount much for the top fighters in the verse. Its like she maxed out her sword skills and its not enough to push her beyond the captain rank in the marines.

The Pinnacle of Swordsmanship: The Ability to Cut Nothing

There's been many theories floating around regarding how Zoro will beat Shiryu. Long story short, the theory says Zoro will learn to cut nothing to beat Shiryu. Cutting nothing was first mentioned by Kyoshiro =>

Whats relevant and important for this thread is, Kyoshiro regarded "cutting nothing" as the pinnacle of swordsmanship =>

I had high hopes this would be some special sword skill thats unique to the "pure" swordsmen, the people who live by and die by their swords. I was expecting some sort of ultra instinct awakening or some other badass shit unique to sword masters. However, my excitement was dashed when Oda revealed "cutting nothing" is heavily reliant on haki abilities =>

Only Haki is real

1. The first thing (the only thing?) Mihawk taught Zoro is haki =>

2. While teaching his swordstyle to his disciples, the first thing Oden mentions is ryou =>

3. A master swordsman can use his haki to cut everything or cut nothing (see the Hyogoro panel above)

We saw during Zoro vs King fight that all the techniques in the world wasnt enough, but once Zoro unleashed CoC, it was over.

TLDR

Haki is everything for a swordsman, sword skill means squat

Some tags (who I think might be interested):

Stacks · Mar 30, 2023

Nidai_Kitetsu said:

I see the words "sword skills" gets thrown around in One Piece community and we all know its because of the age old debate of Shanks vs Mihawk. Trollda himself fuels such debates by mentioning "sword skill" in Mihawk's bounty poster. I have been thinking a while the meaning of "sword skill" in One Piece context and came to the conclusion that sword skills doesnt really exist in One Piece, its a myth.

The lack of depth in sword styles in One Piece

In order to discuss sword skills, it is important to consider sword styles first. Lets take the gold standard of sword mangas Rurouni Kenshin for example (If you havent read it yet, start now!). Some of the well known sword styles from Rurouni Kenshin are =>
- Hiten Mitsurigi style: Kenshin's style, a fast-paced style that focuses on agility and speed
- Kamiya Kasshin style: Kaoru's style, thats focused on defense and counters
- Gatotsu: Sword style of the GOAT Hajime Saito, a style that emphasizes speed and precision in order to kill opponents quickly
- Kodachi style: Aoshi's style that use a short sword to create impregnable defense and then attack with martial arts

It is clear that Noburo Watsuki, the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, gave careful consideration to the sword styles portrayed in the manga. These styles are well-defined and tailored to suit the personalities, physical abilities, and weaponry of their respective users. Now lets think about some of the prominent sword styles we got in One Piece =>
- Two sword style: Oden
- Three sword style: Zoro
- Four sword style: Kaku
- Six sword style: Hatchan
- Eight sword style: Hyouzou
- Nine sword style: Asura Kyutoryu

One could argue that Oda is simply adding a new sword and calling it a new style in One Piece, without much thought put into it. Its either Oda was being lazy with the styles or he simply didnt care much. What if sword styles, as well as sword skills, doesnt really matter for a top tier swordsmen? That would explain why sword styles lacking in depth and careful consideration.

There is only one skill exclusive to the "pure" swordsmen

The majority of techniques used by One Piece swordsmen are rooting in various forms of cutting or slashing. Its quite possible that individuals like Roger or Shanks could perform this maneuvers given their strength, skill or agility.

As far as I am concerned, there is only one skill thats exclusive to the so called "pure" swordsmen: the flying slash. This technique was introduced during Skypea when Zoro fought Braham. We have also seen Zoro imbuing haki with a flying slash against Monet. Flying slash is something that probably requires a certain level of skill and I dont see Shanks/Roger replicating it without any practice. However, the haki emission strikes (e.g. kamusari) from Roger/Shanks have a similar function. Is flying slash truly necessary for a swordsman who has haki emission strikes in his arsenal?

Another technique that could potentially be exclusive to "pure" swordsmen is the "iai" technique, which involves drawing the sword quickly and striking in one fluid motion. Zoro has used this technique with his Shishi Sonson attack. However, going forward, I dont see any scenario where a fast draw would impact the outcome of a fight.

The use of Juken - Gentle blade

Perhaps you are thinking, "Well Nidai, we have seen how crucial sword skills can be all the way back in chapter 51" =>

Zoro: It was DEFLECTED. No matter times you shoot him, the outcome will be the same.
He changed the trajectory of the bullet with the tip of his sword.
Pirate: ...who the hell are you?!
Zoro: I've never seen such a graceful sword.
Mihawk: There is no strength in a sword without softness.
Zoro: And you split this ship with that sword as well?
Mihawk: Indeed.

Zoro admired it as if using gentle blade alone made Mihawk the WSS. Unfortunately, Tashigi replicated this feat:

No disrespect to Tashigi, but if she can replicate one of the greatest sword skills, perhaps sword skills dont amount much for the top fighters in the verse. Its like she maxed out her sword skills and its not enough to push her beyond the captain rank in the marines.

The Pinnacle of Swordsmanship: The Ability to Cut Nothing

There's been many theories floating around regarding how Zoro will beat Shiryu. Long story short, the theory says Zoro will learn to cut nothing to beat Shiryu. Cutting nothing was first mentioned by Kyoshiro =>

Whats relevant and important for this thread is, Kyoshiro regarded "cutting nothing" as the pinnacle of swordsmanship =>

I had high hopes this would be some special sword skill thats unique to the "pure" swordsmen, the people who live by and die by their swords. I was expecting some sort of ultra instinct awakening or some other badass shit unique to sword masters. However, my excitement was dashed when Oda revealed "cutting nothing" is heavily reliant on haki abilities =>

Only Haki is real

1. The first thing (the only thing?) Mihawk taught Zoro is haki =>

2. While teaching his swordstyle to his disciples, the first thing Oden mentions is ryou =>

3. A master swordsman can use his haki to cut everything or cut nothing (see the Hyogoro panel above)

We saw during Zoro vs King fight that all the techniques in the world wasnt enough, but once Zoro unleashed CoC, it was over.

TLDR

Haki is everything for a swordsman, sword skill means squat

Some tags (who I think might be interested):

Nah Mihawk don't have any haki and was clashing with divine departure and greater attacks. Pure skills.

Franosuke · Mar 30, 2023

Absolutely.

--When the Scabbards took Oden's swordstyle and used it against Kaido, his comment was: "so you're using Oden's ryuo."

--Hyogoro's explanation of Ryuo to Luffy was almost word-for-word the same as Koshiro's explanation of BOAT to Zoro.

--Zoro's supposed main focus during the timeskip was haki.

--Black blades have been implied to have a connection to haki.

It's been obvious for quite a while now that haki is the most fundamental power for top-class swordsmen.

It should be expected that Mihawk, the current WSS, will be a master of all forms of haki:
1. His epithets being "Clairvoyant" and "Hawk-Eyes" suggests one of the highest levels of CoO
2. His forging of a kokuto suggests that he is a master of CoA
3. The WSS title being referred to as a kingly ambition suggests that he has CoC

Having world-class haki is a requirement for being a master swordsman, and even more important if you want to be the strongest swordsman.

Redboy776 · Mar 30, 2023

Arent easy to be a master swordsman, you need so much haki mastery.

Den_Den_Mushi · Mar 30, 2023

Haki and physical strength are indeed the only things that matter. Brook and zombie Ryuma used the same techniques but Brook lost because his stats were subpar. Almost all the scabbards attacking Kaido at the same time with the same technique as Oden could barely open up the old scar. Technique just… doesn’t matter in this series.

Konstantis · Mar 30, 2023

King is not a swordman, according to Zoro, despite using sword

Franosuke · Mar 30, 2023

Konstantis said:

Not necessarily true, and more importantly how is that remotely relevant lmao

Nidai_Kitetsu · Mar 30, 2023

Den_Den_Mushi said:

Very true, physical strength matters as well, thats why Kuina thought she could never become the WSS no matter how skilled she becomes

Violent Sanji · Mar 30, 2023

Nidai_Kitetsu said:

I see the words "sword skills" gets thrown around in One Piece community and we all know its because of the age old debate of Shanks vs Mihawk. Trollda himself fuels such debates by mentioning "sword skill" in Mihawk's bounty poster. I have been thinking a while the meaning of "sword skill" in One Piece context and came to the conclusion that sword skills doesnt really exist in One Piece, its a myth.

The lack of depth in sword styles in One Piece

In order to discuss sword skills, it is important to consider sword styles first. Lets take the gold standard of sword mangas Rurouni Kenshin for example (If you havent read it yet, start now!). Some of the well known sword styles from Rurouni Kenshin are =>
- Hiten Mitsurigi style: Kenshin's style, a fast-paced style that focuses on agility and speed
- Kamiya Kasshin style: Kaoru's style, thats focused on defense and counters
- Gatotsu: Sword style of the GOAT Hajime Saito, a style that emphasizes speed and precision in order to kill opponents quickly
- Kodachi style: Aoshi's style that use a short sword to create impregnable defense and then attack with martial arts

It is clear that Noburo Watsuki, the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, gave careful consideration to the sword styles portrayed in the manga. These styles are well-defined and tailored to suit the personalities, physical abilities, and weaponry of their respective users. Now lets think about some of the prominent sword styles we got in One Piece =>
- Two sword style: Oden
- Three sword style: Zoro
- Four sword style: Kaku
- Six sword style: Hatchan
- Eight sword style: Hyouzou
- Nine sword style: Asura Kyutoryu

One could argue that Oda is simply adding a new sword and calling it a new style in One Piece, without much thought put into it. Its either Oda was being lazy with the styles or he simply didnt care much. What if sword styles, as well as sword skills, doesnt really matter for a top tier swordsmen? That would explain why sword styles lacking in depth and careful consideration.

There is only one skill exclusive to the "pure" swordsmen

The majority of techniques used by One Piece swordsmen are rooting in various forms of cutting or slashing. Its quite possible that individuals like Roger or Shanks could perform this maneuvers given their strength, skill or agility.

As far as I am concerned, there is only one skill thats exclusive to the so called "pure" swordsmen: the flying slash. This technique was introduced during Skypea when Zoro fought Braham. We have also seen Zoro imbuing haki with a flying slash against Monet. Flying slash is something that probably requires a certain level of skill and I dont see Shanks/Roger replicating it without any practice. However, the haki emission strikes (e.g. kamusari) from Roger/Shanks have a similar function. Is flying slash truly necessary for a swordsman who has haki emission strikes in his arsenal?

Another technique that could potentially be exclusive to "pure" swordsmen is the "iai" technique, which involves drawing the sword quickly and striking in one fluid motion. Zoro has used this technique with his Shishi Sonson attack. However, going forward, I dont see any scenario where a fast draw would impact the outcome of a fight.

The use of Juken - Gentle blade

Perhaps you are thinking, "Well Nidai, we have seen how crucial sword skills can be all the way back in chapter 51" =>

Zoro: It was DEFLECTED. No matter times you shoot him, the outcome will be the same.
He changed the trajectory of the bullet with the tip of his sword.
Pirate: ...who the hell are you?!
Zoro: I've never seen such a graceful sword.
Mihawk: There is no strength in a sword without softness.
Zoro: And you split this ship with that sword as well?
Mihawk: Indeed.

Zoro admired it as if using gentle blade alone made Mihawk the WSS. Unfortunately, Tashigi replicated this feat:

No disrespect to Tashigi, but if she can replicate one of the greatest sword skills, perhaps sword skills dont amount much for the top fighters in the verse. Its like she maxed out her sword skills and its not enough to push her beyond the captain rank in the marines.

The Pinnacle of Swordsmanship: The Ability to Cut Nothing

There's been many theories floating around regarding how Zoro will beat Shiryu. Long story short, the theory says Zoro will learn to cut nothing to beat Shiryu. Cutting nothing was first mentioned by Kyoshiro =>

Whats relevant and important for this thread is, Kyoshiro regarded "cutting nothing" as the pinnacle of swordsmanship =>

I had high hopes this would be some special sword skill thats unique to the "pure" swordsmen, the people who live by and die by their swords. I was expecting some sort of ultra instinct awakening or some other badass shit unique to sword masters. However, my excitement was dashed when Oda revealed "cutting nothing" is heavily reliant on haki abilities =>

Only Haki is real

1. The first thing (the only thing?) Mihawk taught Zoro is haki =>

2. While teaching his swordstyle to his disciples, the first thing Oden mentions is ryou =>

3. A master swordsman can use his haki to cut everything or cut nothing (see the Hyogoro panel above)

We saw during Zoro vs King fight that all the techniques in the world wasnt enough, but once Zoro unleashed CoC, it was over.

TLDR

Haki is everything for a swordsman, sword skill means squat

Some tags (who I think might be interested):

By this logic mihawk would be the greatest haki user in the series. Since swordsmanship doesn’t mean anything

Nidai_Kitetsu · Mar 30, 2023

Violent Sanji said:

He very well could be, how else could he be a top tier without any devil fruits?

Lor D. Coast · Mar 30, 2023

Only non swordsmen use "real" haki.

ShadowStyle369 · Mar 30, 2023

Agree wholeheartedly nice thread :cheers:

spawn · Mar 30, 2023

Konstantis said:

Ace is Roger's son.

Celestial D. Dragon · Mar 30, 2023

Give Tashigi, Shanks haki, and she would still lose to Dressrosa Zoro.

Give Tashigi Mihawk's level of Swordsmanship, and she'd be able to put up a fight against current Zoro.

Skill contributes more than haki, but in order to be the Strongest Swordsman you need both top tier skill and top tier haki.

You could have the strongest haki on the planet, but if you're an average fighter, then it's useless.

HellBlazer04 · Mar 30, 2023

Celestial D. Dragon said:

In both cases you presented, Tashigi wins and it wouldn't even be close.

Haki is tied directly to strength, if you giving her shanks haki then that means she is just as strong as shanks and we all know dressrosa zoro gets absolutely destroyed by shanks.
The same case for mihawk's swordsmanship, if she has that level she demolishes zoro and again it wouldn't even be fair.

There is no such thing as "sword skill". Current zoro has the same skill as pre-ts zoro, the only different thing is that he has haki.

Gol D. Roger · Mar 30, 2023

Both skill and Haki matter because skill is the way you attack someone while Haki is what gives power to your attack. We're comparing two basic components of a fighting style that are absolutely necessary and saying one is more important than the other.

Celestial D. Dragon · Mar 30, 2023

HellBlazer04 said:

No, when Zoro meets Mihawk for the first time, Zoro comments on his subtle Swordsmanship, to which Mihawk replies, a Sword without subtlety is just an iron bar. There is such thing as refinement to ones techniques. That is Sword Skill. Creating new attacks, doesn't mean you're getting better at Swordsmanship. It's the manner in which you deliver those attacks that separate the skilled, from unskilled.

Mihawk, without Haki, could deliver a flying Slash 100 times the size of any slash Zoro has created thus far, even with Haki.

Marimo_420 · Mar 30, 2023

Celestial D. Dragon said:

Give Tashigi Shank's Haki and she beats pretty much any version of Zoro pre roof top.

Give her "sword skills" of Mihawk without his strength or haki to back it up and she dies horribly to out of timeskip 2 sword Zoro.

Cozy Sofa · Mar 30, 2023

Let's say 10 is max potential and you have to allocate points

Skill - max 3
Strength - max 3
Haki - max 3
X factor - max 1

Mihawk may well be a 10

Kuina, no matter what she did, could at best be a 9 or 8 as her strength would never reach more than 1 or 2.

That doesn't mean 3 strength = 3 haki because haki is probably the hardest ability to achieve max at.

HellBlazer04 · Mar 30, 2023

Celestial D. Dragon said:

This would be actually true in a manga about swordfighting.
Unfortunately one piece is not about swordfighting.

None of this fits in one piece. You can look at the best example of a swordsman: Zoro, there is absolutely zero skill difference in what he used to do pre-ts and currently. The attacks are exactly the same: the stance, the position of strike, precision, etc you can name any other skill factors and yet you will find that nothing is different in both versions except for Haki.

Mihawk's statement about skill is outdated simply because of the fact that there is nothing special about sword skill if you don't use haki or optimum physical. We have seen many characters dodging bullets easily so him deflecting bullets with his sword is not impressive by one piece world standards.

Let me ask you a question, can Zoro defeat Pica without haki?

Powers & Abilities Sword skill (without haki) is a myth: Haki makes a master swordsman

More options

Nidai_Kitetsu

Stacks

Franosuke

Redboy776

Den_Den_Mushi

Konstantis

Franosuke

Nidai_Kitetsu

Violent Sanji

Nidai_Kitetsu

Lor D. Coast

ShadowStyle369

spawn

Celestial D. Dragon

HellBlazer04

Gol D. Roger

ȶɦɛ քɨʀǟȶɛ ӄɨռɢ

Celestial D. Dragon

Marimo_420

The Honoured One

Cozy Sofa

HellBlazer04