Powers & Abilities Sword skill (without haki) is a myth: Haki makes a master swordsman

Albino 👑 · Mar 30, 2023

Imo
Haki can enhance your swordsmanship but using haki through a sword doesn't equal swordsmanship

Through the king fight for better or worse there's a lot of emphasis on how important swordsmanship and swords are to zoro

It being clarified to use through zoro and king that king himself isn't a swordsman. It happening specifically after king throws a punch and saying he doesn't need a sword style or school to fight.
All the wano swordsman having sword style with oda sadly not going to indent with most of them

Hyogoro 1 sword flower style
- Vista probably knowing the 2 sword version
Kinemon firefox style
Kawamatsu kappa style
The rest of the swordsman also having unique swordsmanship that we never get to know much about

Zoro even getting upset at king for not using his sword enough

King not only bein able to coat his sword in armament but even overwhelm zoro a legit swordsman in a clash. All that while it being told to us he isn't a swordsman

There also people like kaku who is a sword but doesn't strictly rely on his swordsmanship. Us knowing he knows 4 sword style but i think most people realize attacks like nose pistol aren't apart of that

Then there are characters like kizaru and big mom who use devil fruit powered sword from time to time as a part of their arsenal but aren't really swordsman

Then characters like law and fujitora that channel alot of their devil fruit abilities through their swords. Them so far not really using any form of normal swordsmanship

Most controversial ones being roger and shanks potentially not being swordsman either in the normal sense. At least not in the way mihawk and zoro are
Tho admittedly speculation imo based on divine departure it seems like a possibility that they channel their haki through their swords to attack rather than enhancing their sword techniques or slashes by infusing them with haki
If they really do end up using straight up the pure force from their haki to attack instead of normal swordsmanship techniques and stuff that could be a distinction

Post automatically merged: Mar 30, 2023

Alsi when it comes to shiryu even tho he ate a devil fruit i dont think that really changes anything for him on the swordsman front. Effecting it less than even kaku after eating the giraffe fruit

Kaku's fruit giving him new tools to use outside of swordsman like his nose lol. Shiryu being invisible even if he awakens it shouldn't really add anything to his base fighting style. It does give him alot more openings and make him an overall more tricky fighter

Santoryu D Bazooka · Mar 30, 2023

Den_Den_Mushi said:

Man i was about to write this exact same thing.. we think alike.. props to you lol.

Rootbeer · Mar 30, 2023

Nidai_Kitetsu said:

I see the words "sword skills" gets thrown around in One Piece community and we all know its because of the age old debate of Shanks vs Mihawk. Trollda himself fuels such debates by mentioning "sword skill" in Mihawk's bounty poster. I have been thinking a while the meaning of "sword skill" in One Piece context and came to the conclusion that sword skills doesnt really exist in One Piece, its a myth.

The lack of depth in sword styles in One Piece

In order to discuss sword skills, it is important to consider sword styles first. Lets take the gold standard of sword mangas Rurouni Kenshin for example (If you havent read it yet, start now!). Some of the well known sword styles from Rurouni Kenshin are =>
- Hiten Mitsurigi style: Kenshin's style, a fast-paced style that focuses on agility and speed
- Kamiya Kasshin style: Kaoru's style, thats focused on defense and counters
- Gatotsu: Sword style of the GOAT Hajime Saito, a style that emphasizes speed and precision in order to kill opponents quickly
- Kodachi style: Aoshi's style that use a short sword to create impregnable defense and then attack with martial arts

It is clear that Noburo Watsuki, the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, gave careful consideration to the sword styles portrayed in the manga. These styles are well-defined and tailored to suit the personalities, physical abilities, and weaponry of their respective users. Now lets think about some of the prominent sword styles we got in One Piece =>
- Two sword style: Oden
- Three sword style: Zoro
- Four sword style: Kaku
- Six sword style: Hatchan
- Eight sword style: Hyouzou
- Nine sword style: Asura Kyutoryu

One could argue that Oda is simply adding a new sword and calling it a new style in One Piece, without much thought put into it. Its either Oda was being lazy with the styles or he simply didnt care much. What if sword styles, as well as sword skills, doesnt really matter for a top tier swordsmen? That would explain why sword styles lacking in depth and careful consideration.

There is only one skill exclusive to the "pure" swordsmen

The majority of techniques used by One Piece swordsmen are rooting in various forms of cutting or slashing. Its quite possible that individuals like Roger or Shanks could perform this maneuvers given their strength, skill or agility.

As far as I am concerned, there is only one skill thats exclusive to the so called "pure" swordsmen: the flying slash. This technique was introduced during Skypea when Zoro fought Braham. We have also seen Zoro imbuing haki with a flying slash against Monet. Flying slash is something that probably requires a certain level of skill and I dont see Shanks/Roger replicating it without any practice. However, the haki emission strikes (e.g. kamusari) from Roger/Shanks have a similar function. Is flying slash truly necessary for a swordsman who has haki emission strikes in his arsenal?

Another technique that could potentially be exclusive to "pure" swordsmen is the "iai" technique, which involves drawing the sword quickly and striking in one fluid motion. Zoro has used this technique with his Shishi Sonson attack. However, going forward, I dont see any scenario where a fast draw would impact the outcome of a fight.

The use of Juken - Gentle blade

Perhaps you are thinking, "Well Nidai, we have seen how crucial sword skills can be all the way back in chapter 51" =>

Zoro: It was DEFLECTED. No matter times you shoot him, the outcome will be the same.
He changed the trajectory of the bullet with the tip of his sword.
Pirate: ...who the hell are you?!
Zoro: I've never seen such a graceful sword.
Mihawk: There is no strength in a sword without softness.
Zoro: And you split this ship with that sword as well?
Mihawk: Indeed.

Zoro admired it as if using gentle blade alone made Mihawk the WSS. Unfortunately, Tashigi replicated this feat:

No disrespect to Tashigi, but if she can replicate one of the greatest sword skills, perhaps sword skills dont amount much for the top fighters in the verse. Its like she maxed out her sword skills and its not enough to push her beyond the captain rank in the marines.

The Pinnacle of Swordsmanship: The Ability to Cut Nothing

There's been many theories floating around regarding how Zoro will beat Shiryu. Long story short, the theory says Zoro will learn to cut nothing to beat Shiryu. Cutting nothing was first mentioned by Kyoshiro =>

Whats relevant and important for this thread is, Kyoshiro regarded "cutting nothing" as the pinnacle of swordsmanship =>

I had high hopes this would be some special sword skill thats unique to the "pure" swordsmen, the people who live by and die by their swords. I was expecting some sort of ultra instinct awakening or some other badass shit unique to sword masters. However, my excitement was dashed when Oda revealed "cutting nothing" is heavily reliant on haki abilities =>

Only Haki is real

1. The first thing (the only thing?) Mihawk taught Zoro is haki =>

2. While teaching his swordstyle to his disciples, the first thing Oden mentions is ryou =>

3. A master swordsman can use his haki to cut everything or cut nothing (see the Hyogoro panel above)

We saw during Zoro vs King fight that all the techniques in the world wasnt enough, but once Zoro unleashed CoC, it was over.

TLDR

Haki is everything for a swordsman, sword skill means squat

Some tags (who I think might be interested):

Well in that context Haki is a Sword Skill too..

l said this before but..

- Haki is the Pinnacle of Swordsmanship
- Swordsmanship is not the Pinnacle of Haki

Major example of that is pure Swordsmen as you say don't use CoC Coating to reach the Pinnacle of
Swordsmanship.. lt goes against the lifestyle to live and die by the Blade as you mentioned..

Great thread

Nidai_Kitetsu · Mar 30, 2023

Gol D. Roger said:

Are you stuck in pre-timeskip?

Albino 👑 said:

Imo
Haki can enhance your swordsmanship but using haki through a sword doesn't equal swordsmanship

Through the king fight for better or worse there's a lot of emphasis on how important swordsmanship and swords are to zoro

It being clarified to use through zoro and king that king himself isn't a swordsman. It happening specifically after king throws a punch and saying he doesn't need a sword style or school to fight.
All the wano swordsman having sword style with oda sadly not going to indent with most of them

Hyogoro 1 sword flower style
- Vista probably knowing the 2 sword version
Kinemon firefox style
Kawamatsu kappa style
The rest of the swordsman also having unique swordsmanship that we never get to know much about

Zoro even getting upset at king for not using his sword enough

King not only bein able to coat his sword in armament but even overwhelm zoro a legit swordsman in a clash. All that while it being told to us he isn't a swordsman

There also people like kaku who is a sword but doesn't strictly rely on his swordsmanship. Us knowing he knows 4 sword style but i think most people realize attacks like nose pistol aren't apart of that

Then there are characters like kizaru and big mom who use devil fruit powered sword from time to time as a part of their arsenal but aren't really swordsman

Then characters like law and fujitora that channel alot of their devil fruit abilities through their swords. Them so far not really using any form of normal swordsmanship

Most controversial ones being roger and shanks potentially not being swordsman either in the normal sense. At least not in the way mihawk and zoro are
Tho admittedly speculation imo based on divine departure it seems like a possibility that they channel their haki through their swords to attack rather than enhancing their sword techniques or slashes by infusing them with haki
If they really do end up using straight up the pure force from their haki to attack instead of normal swordsmanship techniques and stuff that could be a distinction

Post automatically merged: Mar 30, 2023

Alsi when it comes to shiryu even tho he ate a devil fruit i dont think that really changes anything for him on the swordsman front. Effecting it less than even kaku after eating the giraffe fruit

Kaku's fruit giving him new tools to use outside of swordsman like his nose lol. Shiryu being invisible even if he awakens it shouldn't really add anything to his base fighting style. It does give him alot more openings and make him an overall more tricky fighter

Thanks for proving my point. You mentioned the most prominent swordsmen in the verse and could add only 3 more swordstyles from the entire series, which means Oda doesnt really care about it. Out of these three, would you call the kappa or firefox styles as well defined sword styles?

Albino 👑 · Mar 30, 2023

Nidai_Kitetsu said:

Us not knowing what everyones swordsman style doesn't really change how important it is to swordmanship imo. Like mihawk definitely has one tho we just don't know what its called yet

I would call them more defined then most tbh. Them being the only named ones within the retainers
I do think it being highlighted during the king fight makes it even a more relevant aspect of when it comes to swordsman

Nidai_Kitetsu · Mar 30, 2023

Albino 👑 said:

Thats just a clue to you that its all about haki

Albino 👑 said:

Why are you bozos mentioning "King is not a swordsman" repeatedly in this thread? How is this relevant here?

Albino 👑 · Mar 30, 2023

Nidai_Kitetsu said:

Everything is about haki in general yes
Even for someone like kaido

Because he was a character that used a sword even able to coat it in haki and oda went out of his way to tell us he isn't a swordsman
And this is a thread about swordsmanship and haki

zzShinichi · Mar 30, 2023

Albino 👑 said:

King not calling himself a swordman doesn't mean other sword-users who haveother weird shit abilities are not Swordman. Law did way more crazy shit than using his sword yet Oda still regards him as a Swordman, same with Fujitora. Whoever Oda regards as a swordman, is a swordman, no matter how bat shit crazy the man can do without his sword.
What Shanks and Roger did is way more tamed than what Law/Fujitora can do.

Buggy D Clown · Mar 30, 2023

Nidai_Kitetsu said:

Disagree with this, Ryuma could send his attacks(Thrusts not slashes but still) flying even though he only had Brooks skills. Physical strength is 90% of what's required for your sword attack to fly is a fair assumption imo.

Nidai_Kitetsu said:

Honestly this whole conversation could be interpreted as Zoro not understanding what his Sensei told him about being able to cut nothing and yet cut everything with the same sword as he clearly didn't get it until the end of Mr 1 fight and it lines up way too well

Albino 👑 · Mar 30, 2023

zzShinichi said:

Imo they're as much of swordsman as kizaru, aokiji, and big mom maybe even less tbh
Them 3 arguably being more trade when using their swords

Don't think any of them effect zoro and his journey to be wss

Luffy is the mc · Mar 30, 2023

Swords skills is a thing. But it depends what you consider it to be.
Rather than talking about just haki or swords skills which seems to be the debate at the moment, I would talk about what makes a strong swordsman.
And Zoro is the best example since he is the one we saw the most fighting and progressing on panels.
Imo, you need top tier haki obviously, top tier strength, good techniques, good speed and good reaction speed.

yorosenpai · Mar 30, 2023

Nidai_Kitetsu said:

I see the words "sword skills" gets thrown around in One Piece community and we all know its because of the age old debate of Shanks vs Mihawk. Trollda himself fuels such debates by mentioning "sword skill" in Mihawk's bounty poster. I have been thinking a while the meaning of "sword skill" in One Piece context and came to the conclusion that sword skills doesnt really exist in One Piece, its a myth.

The lack of depth in sword styles in One Piece

In order to discuss sword skills, it is important to consider sword styles first. Lets take the gold standard of sword mangas Rurouni Kenshin for example (If you havent read it yet, start now!). Some of the well known sword styles from Rurouni Kenshin are =>
- Hiten Mitsurigi style: Kenshin's style, a fast-paced style that focuses on agility and speed
- Kamiya Kasshin style: Kaoru's style, thats focused on defense and counters
- Gatotsu: Sword style of the GOAT Hajime Saito, a style that emphasizes speed and precision in order to kill opponents quickly
- Kodachi style: Aoshi's style that use a short sword to create impregnable defense and then attack with martial arts

It is clear that Noburo Watsuki, the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, gave careful consideration to the sword styles portrayed in the manga. These styles are well-defined and tailored to suit the personalities, physical abilities, and weaponry of their respective users. Now lets think about some of the prominent sword styles we got in One Piece =>
- Two sword style: Oden
- Three sword style: Zoro
- Four sword style: Kaku
- Six sword style: Hatchan
- Eight sword style: Hyouzou
- Nine sword style: Asura Kyutoryu

One could argue that Oda is simply adding a new sword and calling it a new style in One Piece, without much thought put into it. Its either Oda was being lazy with the styles or he simply didnt care much. What if sword styles, as well as sword skills, doesnt really matter for a top tier swordsmen? That would explain why sword styles lacking in depth and careful consideration.

There is only one skill exclusive to the "pure" swordsmen

The majority of techniques used by One Piece swordsmen are rooting in various forms of cutting or slashing. Its quite possible that individuals like Roger or Shanks could perform this maneuvers given their strength, skill or agility.

As far as I am concerned, there is only one skill thats exclusive to the so called "pure" swordsmen: the flying slash. This technique was introduced during Skypea when Zoro fought Braham. We have also seen Zoro imbuing haki with a flying slash against Monet. Flying slash is something that probably requires a certain level of skill and I dont see Shanks/Roger replicating it without any practice. However, the haki emission strikes (e.g. kamusari) from Roger/Shanks have a similar function. Is flying slash truly necessary for a swordsman who has haki emission strikes in his arsenal?

Another technique that could potentially be exclusive to "pure" swordsmen is the "iai" technique, which involves drawing the sword quickly and striking in one fluid motion. Zoro has used this technique with his Shishi Sonson attack. However, going forward, I dont see any scenario where a fast draw would impact the outcome of a fight.

The use of Juken - Gentle blade

Perhaps you are thinking, "Well Nidai, we have seen how crucial sword skills can be all the way back in chapter 51" =>

Zoro: It was DEFLECTED. No matter times you shoot him, the outcome will be the same.
He changed the trajectory of the bullet with the tip of his sword.
Pirate: ...who the hell are you?!
Zoro: I've never seen such a graceful sword.
Mihawk: There is no strength in a sword without softness.
Zoro: And you split this ship with that sword as well?
Mihawk: Indeed.

Zoro admired it as if using gentle blade alone made Mihawk the WSS. Unfortunately, Tashigi replicated this feat:

No disrespect to Tashigi, but if she can replicate one of the greatest sword skills, perhaps sword skills dont amount much for the top fighters in the verse. Its like she maxed out her sword skills and its not enough to push her beyond the captain rank in the marines.

The Pinnacle of Swordsmanship: The Ability to Cut Nothing

There's been many theories floating around regarding how Zoro will beat Shiryu. Long story short, the theory says Zoro will learn to cut nothing to beat Shiryu. Cutting nothing was first mentioned by Kyoshiro =>

Whats relevant and important for this thread is, Kyoshiro regarded "cutting nothing" as the pinnacle of swordsmanship =>

I had high hopes this would be some special sword skill thats unique to the "pure" swordsmen, the people who live by and die by their swords. I was expecting some sort of ultra instinct awakening or some other badass shit unique to sword masters. However, my excitement was dashed when Oda revealed "cutting nothing" is heavily reliant on haki abilities =>

Only Haki is real

1. The first thing (the only thing?) Mihawk taught Zoro is haki =>

2. While teaching his swordstyle to his disciples, the first thing Oden mentions is ryou =>

3. A master swordsman can use his haki to cut everything or cut nothing (see the Hyogoro panel above)

We saw during Zoro vs King fight that all the techniques in the world wasnt enough, but once Zoro unleashed CoC, it was over.

TLDR

Haki is everything for a swordsman, sword skill means squat

Some tags (who I think might be interested):

:cheers:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1641078129354743813

nik87 · Mar 30, 2023

Skill, strength, haki... It all matters but yes, haki is the biggest deal by far, at least that's what it looks like now.

Back in Alabasta, when Zoro said he pushed himself harder than anyone and asked what he lacks, the answer was - haki.
When he begged Mihawk to make him stronger by teaching him the way of the sword, the instructions were - haki.
When a sword with a nasty personality was rebelling and testing him, the answer was, you guessed it - haki.

Haki, haki, haki... When Zoro demolished Killer and King, it was because they couldnt match his haki, he cut through their weapons and sliced through them. Skill and strength will never get the spotlight as long as someone comes around who can match Zoro's haki. When haki is matched, then the fight will be decided by either strength or skill.

However, haki seems to be a great neutralizer of strength considering that it allows base Luffy to clash with hybrid Kaido. The strength difference is as wide as it always was but the no-touch haki barrier said - you shall not pass, regardless of how physically strong you are.
Eventually, when haki is matched, strength may start to be a deciding factor of who pushes who back but most top tier humans have similar strength so it will be matched just like haki will be.

That's where skill comes in, only when haki and strength are matched, can skill be the deciding factor of the battle and who knew that Zoro had the supreme skill from the start of the show...

However, you can have strength and skill maxed out but if you lack haki you will remain a frog in a small pond. You will do fine with any other combination of two that involves haki but if haki is missing, everything is pointless.

So, yes, your point of haki being the backbone of swordsmen is correct. You can have great haki and bad skill and you will be #2, second to the one who has great haki and great skill.

L55 · Mar 30, 2023

Celestial D. Dragon said:

Cruxroux · Mar 30, 2023

yorosenpai said:

Shanks awakened Power of Friendship for his friends.
:blush:

How original.

L55 · Mar 30, 2023

@Celestial D. Dragon why dr zoro said pica wouldve won if pica s haki was greater than his? :kuzanshut:

JoNdule · Mar 30, 2023

Sword skills is the biggest factor not haki
On who's better swordman in swordmanship

comrade · Mar 30, 2023

I in fact made several threads about that fact too.

The 3 essential pillars to become a powerful swordsman - skill alone is not enough

A swordsman can only become one with his sword through Haki - swordmastery and weak Haki are a contradiction by definition

:goyea:

nik87 · Mar 30, 2023

JoNdule said:

Why is this fool Zoro increasing his haki since TS and nothing else? Is he stoopid or sumthin? :lusalty:

zzShinichi · Mar 30, 2023

I mean all Mihawk has ever done is swinging his sword real hard. Even my grandma could do it.

Powers & Abilities Sword skill (without haki) is a myth: Haki makes a master swordsman

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