Powers & Abilities Sword skill (without haki) is a myth: Haki makes a master swordsman
- Thread starter Nidai_Kitetsu
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I see the words "sword skills" gets thrown around in One Piece community and we all know its because of the age old debate of Shanks vs Mihawk. Trollda himself fuels such debates by mentioning "sword skill" in Mihawk's bounty poster. I have been thinking a while the meaning of "sword skill" in One Piece context and came to the conclusion that sword skills doesnt really exist in One Piece, its a myth.
The lack of depth in sword styles in One Piece
In order to discuss sword skills, it is important to consider sword styles first. Lets take the gold standard of sword mangas Rurouni Kenshin for example (If you havent read it yet, start now!). Some of the well known sword styles from Rurouni Kenshin are =>
- Hiten Mitsurigi style: Kenshin's style, a fast-paced style that focuses on agility and speed
- Kamiya Kasshin style: Kaoru's style, thats focused on defense and counters
- Gatotsu: Sword style of the GOAT Hajime Saito, a style that emphasizes speed and precision in order to kill opponents quickly
- Kodachi style: Aoshi's style that use a short sword to create impregnable defense and then attack with martial arts
It is clear that Noburo Watsuki, the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, gave careful consideration to the sword styles portrayed in the manga. These styles are well-defined and tailored to suit the personalities, physical abilities, and weaponry of their respective users. Now lets think about some of the prominent sword styles we got in One Piece =>
- Two sword style: Oden
- Three sword style: Zoro
- Four sword style: Kaku
- Six sword style: Hatchan
- Eight sword style: Hyouzou
- Nine sword style: Asura Kyutoryu
One could argue that Oda is simply adding a new sword and calling it a new style in One Piece, without much thought put into it. Its either Oda was being lazy with the styles or he simply didnt care much. What if sword styles, as well as sword skills, doesnt really matter for a top tier swordsmen? That would explain why sword styles lacking in depth and careful consideration.
There is only one skill exclusive to the "pure" swordsmen
The majority of techniques used by One Piece swordsmen are rooting in various forms of cutting or slashing. Its quite possible that individuals like Roger or Shanks could perform this maneuvers given their strength, skill or agility.
As far as I am concerned, there is only one skill thats exclusive to the so called "pure" swordsmen: the flying slash. This technique was introduced during Skypea when Zoro fought Braham. We have also seen Zoro imbuing haki with a flying slash against Monet. Flying slash is something that probably requires a certain level of skill and I dont see Shanks/Roger replicating it without any practice. However, the haki emission strikes (e.g. kamusari) from Roger/Shanks have a similar function. Is flying slash truly necessary for a swordsman who has haki emission strikes in his arsenal?
Another technique that could potentially be exclusive to "pure" swordsmen is the "iai" technique, which involves drawing the sword quickly and striking in one fluid motion. Zoro has used this technique with his Shishi Sonson attack. However, going forward, I dont see any scenario where a fast draw would impact the outcome of a fight.
The use of Juken - Gentle blade
Perhaps you are thinking, "Well Nidai, we have seen how crucial sword skills can be all the way back in chapter 51" =>
Zoro: It was DEFLECTED. No matter times you shoot him, the outcome will be the same.
He changed the trajectory of the bullet with the tip of his sword.
Pirate: ...who the hell are you?!
Zoro: I've never seen such a graceful sword.
Mihawk: There is no strength in a sword without softness.
Zoro: And you split this ship with that sword as well?
Mihawk: Indeed.
Zoro admired it as if using gentle blade alone made Mihawk the WSS. Unfortunately, Tashigi replicated this feat:
No disrespect to Tashigi, but if she can replicate one of the greatest sword skills, perhaps sword skills dont amount much for the top fighters in the verse. Its like she maxed out her sword skills and its not enough to push her beyond the captain rank in the marines.
The Pinnacle of Swordsmanship: The Ability to Cut Nothing
There's been many theories floating around regarding how Zoro will beat Shiryu. Long story short, the theory says Zoro will learn to cut nothing to beat Shiryu. Cutting nothing was first mentioned by Kyoshiro =>
Whats relevant and important for this thread is, Kyoshiro regarded "cutting nothing" as the pinnacle of swordsmanship =>
I had high hopes this would be some special sword skill thats unique to the "pure" swordsmen, the people who live by and die by their swords. I was expecting some sort of ultra instinct awakening or some other badass shit unique to sword masters. However, my excitement was dashed when Oda revealed "cutting nothing" is heavily reliant on haki abilities =>
Only Haki is real
1. The first thing (the only thing?) Mihawk taught Zoro is haki =>
2. While teaching his swordstyle to his disciples, the first thing Oden mentions is ryou =>
3. A master swordsman can use his haki to cut everything or cut nothing (see the Hyogoro panel above)
We saw during Zoro vs King fight that all the techniques in the world wasnt enough, but once Zoro unleashed CoC, it was over.
TLDR
Haki is everything for a swordsman, sword skill means squat
Some tags (who I think might be interested):
The lack of depth in sword styles in One Piece
In order to discuss sword skills, it is important to consider sword styles first. Lets take the gold standard of sword mangas Rurouni Kenshin for example (If you havent read it yet, start now!). Some of the well known sword styles from Rurouni Kenshin are =>
- Hiten Mitsurigi style: Kenshin's style, a fast-paced style that focuses on agility and speed
- Kamiya Kasshin style: Kaoru's style, thats focused on defense and counters
- Gatotsu: Sword style of the GOAT Hajime Saito, a style that emphasizes speed and precision in order to kill opponents quickly
- Kodachi style: Aoshi's style that use a short sword to create impregnable defense and then attack with martial arts
It is clear that Noburo Watsuki, the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, gave careful consideration to the sword styles portrayed in the manga. These styles are well-defined and tailored to suit the personalities, physical abilities, and weaponry of their respective users. Now lets think about some of the prominent sword styles we got in One Piece =>
- Two sword style: Oden
- Three sword style: Zoro
- Four sword style: Kaku
- Six sword style: Hatchan
- Eight sword style: Hyouzou
- Nine sword style: Asura Kyutoryu
One could argue that Oda is simply adding a new sword and calling it a new style in One Piece, without much thought put into it. Its either Oda was being lazy with the styles or he simply didnt care much. What if sword styles, as well as sword skills, doesnt really matter for a top tier swordsmen? That would explain why sword styles lacking in depth and careful consideration.
There is only one skill exclusive to the "pure" swordsmen
The majority of techniques used by One Piece swordsmen are rooting in various forms of cutting or slashing. Its quite possible that individuals like Roger or Shanks could perform this maneuvers given their strength, skill or agility.
As far as I am concerned, there is only one skill thats exclusive to the so called "pure" swordsmen: the flying slash. This technique was introduced during Skypea when Zoro fought Braham. We have also seen Zoro imbuing haki with a flying slash against Monet. Flying slash is something that probably requires a certain level of skill and I dont see Shanks/Roger replicating it without any practice. However, the haki emission strikes (e.g. kamusari) from Roger/Shanks have a similar function. Is flying slash truly necessary for a swordsman who has haki emission strikes in his arsenal?
Another technique that could potentially be exclusive to "pure" swordsmen is the "iai" technique, which involves drawing the sword quickly and striking in one fluid motion. Zoro has used this technique with his Shishi Sonson attack. However, going forward, I dont see any scenario where a fast draw would impact the outcome of a fight.
The use of Juken - Gentle blade
Perhaps you are thinking, "Well Nidai, we have seen how crucial sword skills can be all the way back in chapter 51" =>
Zoro: It was DEFLECTED. No matter times you shoot him, the outcome will be the same.
He changed the trajectory of the bullet with the tip of his sword.
Pirate: ...who the hell are you?!
Zoro: I've never seen such a graceful sword.
Mihawk: There is no strength in a sword without softness.
Zoro: And you split this ship with that sword as well?
Mihawk: Indeed.
Zoro admired it as if using gentle blade alone made Mihawk the WSS. Unfortunately, Tashigi replicated this feat:
The Pinnacle of Swordsmanship: The Ability to Cut Nothing
There's been many theories floating around regarding how Zoro will beat Shiryu. Long story short, the theory says Zoro will learn to cut nothing to beat Shiryu. Cutting nothing was first mentioned by Kyoshiro =>
Whats relevant and important for this thread is, Kyoshiro regarded "cutting nothing" as the pinnacle of swordsmanship =>
I had high hopes this would be some special sword skill thats unique to the "pure" swordsmen, the people who live by and die by their swords. I was expecting some sort of ultra instinct awakening or some other badass shit unique to sword masters. However, my excitement was dashed when Oda revealed "cutting nothing" is heavily reliant on haki abilities =>
Only Haki is real
1. The first thing (the only thing?) Mihawk taught Zoro is haki =>
2. While teaching his swordstyle to his disciples, the first thing Oden mentions is ryou =>
3. A master swordsman can use his haki to cut everything or cut nothing (see the Hyogoro panel above)
We saw during Zoro vs King fight that all the techniques in the world wasnt enough, but once Zoro unleashed CoC, it was over.
TLDR
Haki is everything for a swordsman, sword skill means squat
Some tags (who I think might be interested):
@HA001 OF THE RAIN
@nik87
@Fleet Leader Fenaker
@L55
@Den_Den_Mushi
@wordy
@Cinera
@Celestial D. Dragon
@Erkan12
@SkySanji (hater)
@The Buddha
@Levi
@kurohime
@Albino 👑
@Rootbeer
@Bogard
@Garp the Fist
@Gol D. Roger
@ZenZu (haki hater)
@HeroesNZ
@TheAncientCenturion
@Buggy D Clown
@CbShadow
@Shanal
@Thabeast
@Rukusho
@grey matter
@ShishioIsBack
@Franosuke
@Rivaille
@Peroroncino
@Blother Fertitta
@ShadyOjiro
@Cyrus the Cactus
@Reborn
@Lor D. Coast
@mly90
@Marimo_420
@Malio
@kumae
@Blazing Lion
@yorosenpai
@Gensui Sazid
@Daikenki
@Salah WG
@Ice devil slayer
@Roronoa-sama
@nik87
@Fleet Leader Fenaker
@L55
@Den_Den_Mushi
@wordy
@Cinera
@Celestial D. Dragon
@Erkan12
@SkySanji (hater)
@The Buddha
@Levi
@kurohime
@Albino 👑
@Rootbeer
@Bogard
@Garp the Fist
@Gol D. Roger
@ZenZu (haki hater)
@HeroesNZ
@TheAncientCenturion
@Buggy D Clown
@CbShadow
@Shanal
@Thabeast
@Rukusho
@grey matter
@ShishioIsBack
@Franosuke
@Rivaille
@Peroroncino
@Blother Fertitta
@ShadyOjiro
@Cyrus the Cactus
@Reborn
@Lor D. Coast
@mly90
@Marimo_420
@Malio
@kumae
@Blazing Lion
@yorosenpai
@Gensui Sazid
@Daikenki
@Salah WG
@Ice devil slayer
@Roronoa-sama
"When we wished to cut, we can cut through even steel. When we do not wished to cut, the blade will not scratch even paper, a fully mastered Sword becomes one with the Swordsman's Will!!!"
Literally stated in the story a swordsman doesnt need haki to cut anything once they have become a good enough swordsman
Literally stated in the story a swordsman doesnt need haki to cut anything once they have become a good enough swordsman
Yes because the current WGS was Shichibukai / Yonko commander level he needed to level up for Mihawk.
Roger wasn't WGS despite using sword and despite being much stronger than Mihawk.
Because Roger's SKILL is irrelevant, it was his Haki and physicals made him PK.
Roger can one-shot WGS Mihawk, Roger still wouldn't be WGS. Because he wouldn't win with better skill.
WGS is like p4p no.1 swordsman.
Roger or Shanks heavyweight champion swordsman.
Heavyweight champion can beat a p4p no.1 fighter if p4p no.1 is not from heavyweight division.
2 different things.
Dai Kengou = WGS
Saikyo Otoko = WSM
*Strongest swordsman and greatest swordsman titles are the same yes.
Only that saying strongest swordsman sounds dumb just like saying ''strongest marksman'' is dumb (its greatest marksman). Greatest swordsman is better translation.
The problem is you ZKK boys think strongest swordsman means strongest man amongst the people who hold swords, its not. Its the same title with greatest swordsman, its only based on SKILL.
Roger wasn't WGS despite using sword and despite being much stronger than Mihawk.
Because Roger's SKILL is irrelevant, it was his Haki and physicals made him PK.
Roger can one-shot WGS Mihawk, Roger still wouldn't be WGS. Because he wouldn't win with better skill.
WGS is like p4p no.1 swordsman.
Roger or Shanks heavyweight champion swordsman.
Heavyweight champion can beat a p4p no.1 fighter if p4p no.1 is not from heavyweight division.
2 different things.
Dai Kengou = WGS
Saikyo Otoko = WSM
WSS
It has already been explained Oda doesn't see a difference between the words strongest and greatest.
It has already been explained Oda doesn't see a difference between the words strongest and greatest.
Only that saying strongest swordsman sounds dumb just like saying ''strongest marksman'' is dumb (its greatest marksman). Greatest swordsman is better translation.
The problem is you ZKK boys think strongest swordsman means strongest man amongst the people who hold swords, its not. Its the same title with greatest swordsman, its only based on SKILL.
"When we wished to cut, we can cut through even steel. When we do not wished to cut, the blade will not scratch even paper, a fully mastered Sword becomes one with the Swordsman's Will!!!"
Literally stated in the story a swordsman doesnt need haki to cut anything once they have become a good enough swordsman
Literally stated in the story a swordsman doesnt need haki to cut anything once they have become a good enough swordsman
Can you please tell me what does 'Will' translates to in the one piece verse?
Roger was strongest man via being PK over WB, lmao 
WB was called strongest man because he could fight Roger equally and Xebec was dead.
Oda could make Roger WGS before PK but he didn't.
If Mihawk's physical and Haki stats were equal to Shanks's, they would specifically say Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, not only more skilled, and Mihawk would be the current strongest man considering how powerful Shanks is compared to Ladmirals.
WB was called strongest man because he could fight Roger equally and Xebec was dead.Oda could make Roger WGS before PK but he didn't.
If Mihawk's physical and Haki stats were equal to Shanks's, they would specifically say Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, not only more skilled, and Mihawk would be the current strongest man considering how powerful Shanks is compared to Ladmirals.
W
Roger was strongest man via being PK over WB, lmao WB was called strongest man because he could fight Roger equally and Xebec was dead.
WB was called strongest man because he could fight Roger equally and Xebec was dead.
and he could make him a non swordman but he didn't , and he made him name his only child after his sword .....
what made zoro a better swordman than his pretime skip version when he's still using the same attacks and the same skills ?
The use of Juken - Gentle blade
Perhaps you are thinking, "Well Nidai, we have seen how crucial sword skills can be all the way back in chapter 51" =>
Zoro: It was DEFLECTED. No matter times you shoot him, the outcome will be the same.
He changed the trajectory of the bullet with the tip of his sword.
Pirate: ...who the hell are you?!
Zoro: I've never seen such a graceful sword.
Mihawk: There is no strength in a sword without softness.
Zoro: And you split this ship with that sword as well?
Mihawk: Indeed.
Zoro admired it as if using gentle blade alone made Mihawk the WSS. Unfortunately, Tashigi replicated this feat:
No disrespect to Tashigi, but if she can replicate one of the greatest sword skills, perhaps sword skills dont amount much for the top fighters in the verse. Its like she maxed out her sword skills and its not enough to push her beyond the captain rank in the marines.
Perhaps you are thinking, "Well Nidai, we have seen how crucial sword skills can be all the way back in chapter 51" =>
Zoro: It was DEFLECTED. No matter times you shoot him, the outcome will be the same.
He changed the trajectory of the bullet with the tip of his sword.
Pirate: ...who the hell are you?!
Zoro: I've never seen such a graceful sword.
Mihawk: There is no strength in a sword without softness.
Zoro: And you split this ship with that sword as well?
Mihawk: Indeed.
Zoro admired it as if using gentle blade alone made Mihawk the WSS. Unfortunately, Tashigi replicated this feat:
Well the funny thing is,Haki is all about that calmness finesse and tranquility etc .
It's just that Oda does not make it more clear on the moves. When he infodumps it is clear,but later when he draws the techniques of each character on panel they remain the same as they were from beginning of time.
CoO needs you to be calm and clear minded.
Flowing haki needs light "movements" and to not strain yourself.
Basically the straining hyo talks is what Mihawk notices about Zoro's swordplay
Because Oda doesn't draw it different doesn't mean there isn't a difference in Zoro's swordplay. As if the man who puts 10-20 sword clashes in one panel with some marks to signify they happened ,is going to go into that much detail..
Lol its the opposite. Hyogoro was talking about haki there.
(1) Read the earlier lines:
"This haki must be a foreign concept. In Wano too, there is an invisible power that stems from the body and can be infused with the blade"
(2) Then Hyogoro said the part you posted.
(3) Afterward, Hyogoro strikes the armadillo gifter with advanced CoA to teach Luffy that "invisible power"
(4) He continues in the next chapter:
"What you call haki is known as ryou in Wano"
(1) Read the earlier lines:
"This haki must be a foreign concept. In Wano too, there is an invisible power that stems from the body and can be infused with the blade"
(2) Then Hyogoro said the part you posted.
(3) Afterward, Hyogoro strikes the armadillo gifter with advanced CoA to teach Luffy that "invisible power"
(4) He continues in the next chapter:
"What you call haki is known as ryou in Wano"
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I didnt say anything about who is stronger between Shanks and Mihawk. My point was "sword skill" is not important for the top dogs, only haki is important.
Answer this, why Tashigi is so weak despite being so skilled with swords?
Roger or Shanks is not like Luffy. They know how to use swords, otherwise they wouldn't use a meito as their main weapons.
Answer this, why Tashigi is so weak despite being so skilled with swords?
Roger or Shanks is not like Luffy. They know how to use swords, otherwise they wouldn't use a meito as their main weapons.
"Strongest" has been used 10 times in the manga atleast, wtf do you mean "they didn't"?
Strongest amongst anyone who is a swordsman is exactly what it means.
Zoro and Mihawk will fight all out and if Zoro wins he will become the new WSS, are you suggesting there will be restrictions in place so the fight will be only skill focused?
This post is so stupid it gave me headache 
Because they didn't? And they also call it Greatest?
If Yasopp is ''strongest marksman'' (better translation would be greatest marksman, its dumb to use strongest for fighting styles) would Yasopp be stronger than Beckman overall?
Its called ''strongest swordsman'' in 1 explanation of that title, strongest is not separate.
Strongest only in ''swordsmanship''.
Not strongest man amongst the people who holds a sword.
Thats why there is another explanation for that same title which is Dai Kengou: means Greatest Swordsman, not strongest.
2 explanations, strongest is less accurate because you trolls think strongest is separate and it means strongest man amongst the people who holds sword.
Because they didn't? And they also call it Greatest?
If Yasopp is ''strongest marksman'' (better translation would be greatest marksman, its dumb to use strongest for fighting styles) would Yasopp be stronger than Beckman overall?
Its called ''strongest swordsman'' in 1 explanation of that title, strongest is not separate.
Strongest only in ''swordsmanship''.
Not strongest man amongst the people who holds a sword.
Thats why there is another explanation for that same title which is Dai Kengou: means Greatest Swordsman, not strongest.
2 explanations, strongest is less accurate because you trolls think strongest is separate and it means strongest man amongst the people who holds sword.
Zoro and Mihawk will fight all out and if Zoro wins he will become the new WSS, are you suggesting there will be restrictions in place so the fight will be only skill focused?
If you believe WB was stronger than Roger you are delusional. Shiki said Roger was the wall that stopped WB and only after Roger died he said it was WB's age.
Still that doesn't disprove anything about Roger not being strongest guy with a sword and still wasn't WGS.
Its used Dai Kengou - Greatest first in chapter 5. And VIZ used Dai Kengou - Greatest in here later when it says Saikyo - Strongest because they didn't want to confuse the readers, Greatest is better English translation:
Tashigi isn't strong enough to use the full potential of special swords. So she isn't skilled enough. They need to be strong enough to match with special swords potential.
Roger and Shanks are above of that, they don't try to match with the potential of their sword, special swords are look like too weak compared to their gigantic Haki. Thats why they don't care about black blade or WGS stuff.
Roger also used pistol, and Shanks uses same fighting style of Roger. Kamusari doesn't cut or pierce. Swords are made to cut and pierce.
Still that doesn't disprove anything about Roger not being strongest guy with a sword and still wasn't WGS.
Its used Dai Kengou - Greatest first in chapter 5. And VIZ used Dai Kengou - Greatest in here later when it says Saikyo - Strongest because they didn't want to confuse the readers, Greatest is better English translation:
Tashigi isn't strong enough to use the full potential of special swords. So she isn't skilled enough. They need to be strong enough to match with special swords potential.
Roger and Shanks are above of that, they don't try to match with the potential of their sword, special swords are look like too weak compared to their gigantic Haki. Thats why they don't care about black blade or WGS stuff.
Roger also used pistol, and Shanks uses same fighting style of Roger. Kamusari doesn't cut or pierce. Swords are made to cut and pierce.