Powers & Abilities Sword skill (without haki) is a myth: Haki makes a master swordsman

#43
I see the words "sword skills" gets thrown around in One Piece community and we all know its because of the age old debate of Shanks vs Mihawk. Trollda himself fuels such debates by mentioning "sword skill" in Mihawk's bounty poster. I have been thinking a while the meaning of "sword skill" in One Piece context and came to the conclusion that sword skills doesnt really exist in One Piece, its a myth.


The lack of depth in sword styles in One Piece

In order to discuss sword skills, it is important to consider sword styles first. Lets take the gold standard of sword mangas Rurouni Kenshin for example (If you havent read it yet, start now!). Some of the well known sword styles from Rurouni Kenshin are =>
- Hiten Mitsurigi style: Kenshin's style, a fast-paced style that focuses on agility and speed
- Kamiya Kasshin style: Kaoru's style, thats focused on defense and counters
- Gatotsu: Sword style of the GOAT Hajime Saito, a style that emphasizes speed and precision in order to kill opponents quickly
- Kodachi style: Aoshi's style that use a short sword to create impregnable defense and then attack with martial arts

It is clear that Noburo Watsuki, the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, gave careful consideration to the sword styles portrayed in the manga. These styles are well-defined and tailored to suit the personalities, physical abilities, and weaponry of their respective users. Now lets think about some of the prominent sword styles we got in One Piece =>
- Two sword style: Oden
- Three sword style: Zoro
- Four sword style: Kaku
- Six sword style: Hatchan
- Eight sword style: Hyouzou
- Nine sword style: Asura Kyutoryu

One could argue that Oda is simply adding a new sword and calling it a new style in One Piece, without much thought put into it. Its either Oda was being lazy with the styles or he simply didnt care much. What if sword styles, as well as sword skills, doesnt really matter for a top tier swordsmen? That would explain why sword styles lacking in depth and careful consideration.

There is only one skill exclusive to the "pure" swordsmen

The majority of techniques used by One Piece swordsmen are rooting in various forms of cutting or slashing. Its quite possible that individuals like Roger or Shanks could perform this maneuvers given their strength, skill or agility.

As far as I am concerned, there is only one skill thats exclusive to the so called "pure" swordsmen: the flying slash. This technique was introduced during Skypea when Zoro fought Braham. We have also seen Zoro imbuing haki with a flying slash against Monet. Flying slash is something that probably requires a certain level of skill and I dont see Shanks/Roger replicating it without any practice. However, the haki emission strikes (e.g. kamusari) from Roger/Shanks have a similar function. Is flying slash truly necessary for a swordsman who has haki emission strikes in his arsenal?

Another technique that could potentially be exclusive to "pure" swordsmen is the "iai" technique, which involves drawing the sword quickly and striking in one fluid motion. Zoro has used this technique with his Shishi Sonson attack. However, going forward, I dont see any scenario where a fast draw would impact the outcome of a fight.


The use of Juken - Gentle blade

Perhaps you are thinking, "Well Nidai, we have seen how crucial sword skills can be all the way back in chapter 51" =>

Zoro: It was DEFLECTED. No matter times you shoot him, the outcome will be the same.
He changed the trajectory of the bullet with the tip of his sword.

Pirate: ...who the hell are you?!
Zoro: I've never seen such a graceful sword.
Mihawk: There is no strength in a sword without softness.
Zoro: And you split this ship with that sword as well?
Mihawk: Indeed.

Zoro admired it as if using gentle blade alone made Mihawk the WSS. Unfortunately, Tashigi replicated this feat:
No disrespect to Tashigi, but if she can replicate one of the greatest sword skills, perhaps sword skills dont amount much for the top fighters in the verse. Its like she maxed out her sword skills and its not enough to push her beyond the captain rank in the marines.


The Pinnacle of Swordsmanship: The Ability to Cut Nothing

There's been many theories floating around regarding how Zoro will beat Shiryu. Long story short, the theory says Zoro will learn to cut nothing to beat Shiryu. Cutting nothing was first mentioned by Kyoshiro =>

Whats relevant and important for this thread is, Kyoshiro regarded "cutting nothing" as the pinnacle of swordsmanship =>

I had high hopes this would be some special sword skill thats unique to the "pure" swordsmen, the people who live by and die by their swords. I was expecting some sort of ultra instinct awakening or some other badass shit unique to sword masters. However, my excitement was dashed when Oda revealed "cutting nothing" is heavily reliant on haki abilities =>



Only Haki is real

1. The first thing (the only thing?) Mihawk taught Zoro is haki =>

2. While teaching his swordstyle to his disciples, the first thing Oden mentions is ryou =>

3. A master swordsman can use his haki to cut everything or cut nothing (see the Hyogoro panel above)

We saw during Zoro vs King fight that all the techniques in the world wasnt enough, but once Zoro unleashed CoC, it was over.


TLDR

Haki is everything for a swordsman, sword skill means squat


Some tags (who I think might be interested):
If I don't remember wrong the cutting nothing pu was against mr.1 given that Shiryu is daz bones 2.0 an enemy with tricken ability and given that Zoro's pu are related with haki I'm expecting a kenbun upgrade but it will be depend of the awakening of the suke suke I think is making the enviroment invisible
 
#46
You guys are falling in the same trap that powerscalers fall into. Remember the golden rule.

"It doesnt matter what we've been shown. Just know, oda will do whatever the fuck he wants"

I would bet money that during zoro vs mihawk, zoro will get off a few good attacks, earning Mihawks respect or praise, but then there will be a turn. Mihawk will push zoro and zoro will overcome, not through the brute strength of his haki, but through some subtle swordskill.

You know, typical manga swordman shenanigans.
 
#47
You guys are falling in the same trap that powerscalers fall into. Remember the golden rule.

"It doesnt matter what we've been shown. Just know, oda will do whatever the fuck he wants"

I would bet money that during zoro vs mihawk, zoro will get off a few good attacks, earning Mihawks respect or praise, but then there will be a turn. Mihawk will push zoro and zoro will overcome, not through the brute strength of his haki, but through some subtle swordskill.

You know, typical manga swordman shenanigans.
that subtle swordskill will be zoro unlocking a blackblade lol
 
#48
People keep throwing around the word "skill" as if it has ever been a deciding factor in any One Piece fight. It has never been that.

Its like people have erased Zoro vs King from their memories.
King was throwing zoro around like a pinball not because of skill but because of strength.

Zoro started controlling enma because he went all out on his Haki not because of skill.

Zoro damaged kaido not because of skill but because of Haki

All of zoro's fights post-ts have revolved around Haki.
Strength and Haki are the 2 biggest factors of fights in One Piece. Not just sword fights but any fight
Post automatically merged:

that subtle swordskill will be zoro unlocking a blackblade lol
And 90% of the reason for making blackblade will be Haki. The other 10% will be some generic shonen spiritual bullshit
 
#51
I see the words "sword skills" gets thrown around in One Piece community and we all know its because of the age old debate of Shanks vs Mihawk. Trollda himself fuels such debates by mentioning "sword skill" in Mihawk's bounty poster. I have been thinking a while the meaning of "sword skill" in One Piece context and came to the conclusion that sword skills doesnt really exist in One Piece, its a myth.


The lack of depth in sword styles in One Piece

In order to discuss sword skills, it is important to consider sword styles first. Lets take the gold standard of sword mangas Rurouni Kenshin for example (If you havent read it yet, start now!). Some of the well known sword styles from Rurouni Kenshin are =>
- Hiten Mitsurigi style: Kenshin's style, a fast-paced style that focuses on agility and speed
- Kamiya Kasshin style: Kaoru's style, thats focused on defense and counters
- Gatotsu: Sword style of the GOAT Hajime Saito, a style that emphasizes speed and precision in order to kill opponents quickly
- Kodachi style: Aoshi's style that use a short sword to create impregnable defense and then attack with martial arts

It is clear that Noburo Watsuki, the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, gave careful consideration to the sword styles portrayed in the manga. These styles are well-defined and tailored to suit the personalities, physical abilities, and weaponry of their respective users. Now lets think about some of the prominent sword styles we got in One Piece =>
- Two sword style: Oden
- Three sword style: Zoro
- Four sword style: Kaku
- Six sword style: Hatchan
- Eight sword style: Hyouzou
- Nine sword style: Asura Kyutoryu

One could argue that Oda is simply adding a new sword and calling it a new style in One Piece, without much thought put into it. Its either Oda was being lazy with the styles or he simply didnt care much. What if sword styles, as well as sword skills, doesnt really matter for a top tier swordsmen? That would explain why sword styles lacking in depth and careful consideration.

There is only one skill exclusive to the "pure" swordsmen

The majority of techniques used by One Piece swordsmen are rooting in various forms of cutting or slashing. Its quite possible that individuals like Roger or Shanks could perform this maneuvers given their strength, skill or agility.

As far as I am concerned, there is only one skill thats exclusive to the so called "pure" swordsmen: the flying slash. This technique was introduced during Skypea when Zoro fought Braham. We have also seen Zoro imbuing haki with a flying slash against Monet. Flying slash is something that probably requires a certain level of skill and I dont see Shanks/Roger replicating it without any practice. However, the haki emission strikes (e.g. kamusari) from Roger/Shanks have a similar function. Is flying slash truly necessary for a swordsman who has haki emission strikes in his arsenal?

Another technique that could potentially be exclusive to "pure" swordsmen is the "iai" technique, which involves drawing the sword quickly and striking in one fluid motion. Zoro has used this technique with his Shishi Sonson attack. However, going forward, I dont see any scenario where a fast draw would impact the outcome of a fight.


The use of Juken - Gentle blade

Perhaps you are thinking, "Well Nidai, we have seen how crucial sword skills can be all the way back in chapter 51" =>

Zoro: It was DEFLECTED. No matter times you shoot him, the outcome will be the same.
He changed the trajectory of the bullet with the tip of his sword.

Pirate: ...who the hell are you?!
Zoro: I've never seen such a graceful sword.
Mihawk: There is no strength in a sword without softness.
Zoro: And you split this ship with that sword as well?
Mihawk: Indeed.

Zoro admired it as if using gentle blade alone made Mihawk the WSS. Unfortunately, Tashigi replicated this feat:
No disrespect to Tashigi, but if she can replicate one of the greatest sword skills, perhaps sword skills dont amount much for the top fighters in the verse. Its like she maxed out her sword skills and its not enough to push her beyond the captain rank in the marines.


The Pinnacle of Swordsmanship: The Ability to Cut Nothing

There's been many theories floating around regarding how Zoro will beat Shiryu. Long story short, the theory says Zoro will learn to cut nothing to beat Shiryu. Cutting nothing was first mentioned by Kyoshiro =>

Whats relevant and important for this thread is, Kyoshiro regarded "cutting nothing" as the pinnacle of swordsmanship =>

I had high hopes this would be some special sword skill thats unique to the "pure" swordsmen, the people who live by and die by their swords. I was expecting some sort of ultra instinct awakening or some other badass shit unique to sword masters. However, my excitement was dashed when Oda revealed "cutting nothing" is heavily reliant on haki abilities =>



Only Haki is real

1. The first thing (the only thing?) Mihawk taught Zoro is haki =>

2. While teaching his swordstyle to his disciples, the first thing Oden mentions is ryou =>

3. A master swordsman can use his haki to cut everything or cut nothing (see the Hyogoro panel above)

We saw during Zoro vs King fight that all the techniques in the world wasnt enough, but once Zoro unleashed CoC, it was over.


TLDR

Haki is everything for a swordsman, sword skill means squat


Some tags (who I think might be interested):
They literally said the difference between Shanks and Mihawk was SWORD SKILL. If you think that simply means stronger why they would use the ''skill'' word?

Did anyone say Kaido or WB is more ''skilled''?

Look what Stephen Paul told me when he thought Oda didn't mean ''skill'' but he actually Oda did mean skill:



Start to follow Mihawk's own words:


Mihawk: ''A sword without grace (skill) is no strong sword.''
--- Chapter 0050


Zolo's own words:

Zolo: ''You don't know the difference between 'using three swords' and using 'three swords style'!''
--- Chapter 0033

''Style'' and ''skill'' difference:



Luffy's strength and speed didn't make any difference while using a sword, because he didn't have any sword skill to make any difference. Infact Luffy was even weaker than before. Even Hachi was ''a stronger'' swordsman (greater swordsman is more accurate translation) than Luffy, as well as Zolo. The only difference between Luffy and them is the sword skill here. Which is the factor that makes the difference. The main factor in WGS title is skill.
I mean all Mihawk has ever done is swinging his sword real hard. Even my grandma could do it.
:luffylaugh: Thats what Arlong said when Luffy tried to use a sword, Luffy was even weaker with a sword because he didn't know how to use it, he didn't have ''skill''.
Absolutely.

--When the Scabbards took Oden's swordstyle and used it against Kaido, his comment was: "so you're using Oden's ryuo."

--Hyogoro's explanation of Ryuo to Luffy was almost word-for-word the same as Koshiro's explanation of BOAT to Zoro.

--Zoro's supposed main focus during the timeskip was haki.

--Black blades have been implied to have a connection to haki.

It's been obvious for quite a while now that haki is the most fundamental power for top-class swordsmen.

It should be expected that Mihawk, the current WSS, will be a master of all forms of haki:
1. His epithets being "Clairvoyant" and "Hawk-Eyes" suggests one of the highest levels of CoO
2. His forging of a kokuto suggests that he is a master of CoA
3. The WSS title being referred to as a kingly ambition suggests that he has CoC

Having world-class haki is a requirement for being a master swordsman, and even more important if you want to be the strongest swordsman.
I see you PTSD troll still carrying my 3 years old quote in your signature, your PTSD makes me laugh whenever I see it, because that 3 billion for only if Mihawk wasn't Marine Hunter. And we see what happened to 3 billion Kid anyways.:luffylaugh: And no Mihawk doesn't even have equal Haki to Shanks, Mihawk didn't even see Jozu blocking his attack and didn't know PreTS Zolo beating baboons, Mihawk's Haki is garbage compared to Shanks. Mihawk doesn't even have equal CoA feat to BB who blocked mountain slash with 1 barehand.
 
#54
If you think that simply means most skilled why would they keep using the ''strongest'' word?
This post is so stupid it gave me headache :lawsigh:

Because they didn't? And they also call it Greatest?

If Yasopp is ''strongest marksman'' (better translation would be greatest marksman, its dumb to use strongest for fighting styles) would Yasopp be stronger than Beckman overall?

Its called ''strongest swordsman'' in 1 explanation of that title, strongest is not separate.

Strongest only in ''swordsmanship''.

Not strongest man amongst the people who holds a sword.

Thats why there is another explanation for that same title which is Dai Kengou: means Greatest Swordsman, not strongest.




2 explanations, strongest is less accurate because you trolls think strongest is separate and it means strongest man amongst the people who holds sword.
 
#55
This post is so stupid it gave me headache :lawsigh:

Because they didn't? And they also call it Greatest?

If Yasopp is ''strongest marksman'' (better translation would be greatest marksman, its dumb to use strongest for fighting styles) would Yasopp be stronger than Beckman overall?

Its called ''strongest swordsman'' in 1 explanation of that title, strongest is not separate.

Strongest only in ''swordsmanship''.

Not strongest man amongst the people who holds a sword.

Thats why there is another explanation for that same title which is Dai Kengou: means Greatest Swordsman, not strongest.




2 explanations, strongest is less accurate because you trolls think strongest is separate and it means strongest man amongst the people who holds sword.
You know the title follow the wording of WB and Kaido right?

It's not greatest man nor greatest creature.

Only with Mihawk the translator do this, and people with agendas question the title wording.
 
#58
This post is so stupid it gave me headache :lawsigh:

Because they didn't? And they also call it Greatest?

If Yasopp is ''strongest marksman'' (better translation would be greatest marksman, its dumb to use strongest for fighting styles) would Yasopp be stronger than Beckman overall?

Its called ''strongest swordsman'' in 1 explanation of that title, strongest is not separate.

Strongest only in ''swordsmanship''.

Not strongest man amongst the people who holds a sword.

Thats why there is another explanation for that same title which is Dai Kengou: means Greatest Swordsman, not strongest.




2 explanations, strongest is less accurate because you trolls think strongest is separate and it means strongest man amongst the people who holds sword.
WSS


It has already been explained Oda doesn't see a difference between the words strongest and greatest.
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#59
This post is so stupid it gave me headache :lawsigh:

Because they didn't? And they also call it Greatest?

If Yasopp is ''strongest marksman'' (better translation would be greatest marksman, its dumb to use strongest for fighting styles) would Yasopp be stronger than Beckman overall?

Its called ''strongest swordsman'' in 1 explanation of that title, strongest is not separate.

Strongest only in ''swordsmanship''.

Not strongest man amongst the people who holds a sword.

Thats why there is another explanation for that same title which is Dai Kengou: means Greatest Swordsman, not strongest.




2 explanations, strongest is less accurate because you trolls think strongest is separate and it means strongest man amongst the people who holds sword.
By adding aCoC to his repertoire, did Zoro become GREATER or STRONGER? :zosmug:
 
#60
what's the difference between zoro's pre time skip attacks and the post time skip attacks, he still "swing" his swords the same way?

the only difference is that zoro has became much more physically stronger and is now capable of using haki

and the only time is the whole series where zoro created a new sword style (dragon sword style and Koh sword style) is when he unlocked conqueror's haki
 
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