Giorno Giovanna vs Yhwach

#21
I'm going with Giorno. He lives rent free in my head as a "so broken it's boring" character. Reverting everything to zero, including the will to take action, is too much.

Regarding the "attacker" bit, I'd need to re-read the fight, it's been years, but even with that restriction, an aggression manipulating the future is still an aggression.
 
#22
I'm going with Giorno. He lives rent free in my head as a "so broken it's boring" character. Reverting everything to zero, including the will to take action, is too much.

Regarding the "attacker" bit, I'd need to re-read the fight, it's been years, but even with that restriction, an aggression manipulating the future is still an aggression.
King Crimson was trying to harm Giorno first.

And yes, wicked intent can still activates GER even if your body doesn't move.
 
#24
I know GER is also passive, but Almighty being passive means he doesn't need to take an "action".

King Crimson's situation is a bit different since he had to commit an action to skip time which got RTZ'd. Yhwach doesn't need to do that since he passively nulls it from the future, an action that hasn't actually been done yet so there isn't anything to revert.


For King Crimson: KC being activated to erase time (committing action) -> Time is erased -> GER RTZ (reverting action)

For Yhwach since Almighty is passive: Yhwach stands (committing no action) -> GER doesn't do anything since there is no action being done

Yhwach has resisted Ichibei's conceptual powers along with nulling Orihime's ability which works similarly to GER.


Unless I'm misunderstanding GER (it's been a while since I've seen that fight), then GER shouldn't be affecting Yhwach.



There's also the stat difference. Even if GER worked, would he even be able damage Yhwach?
Three things:

1. GER reverts ALL willpower and actions to zero. Even if Ywach conceptually takes no action, that doesn't mean there is no willpower involved in the working of The Almighty. Which means that The Almighty can still be returned to zero.

Also remember that KC can see the future, too, just like Ywach and it accomplished diddly squat against GER. :gokulaugh:

2. GER is beyond the concept of stats:



So, no amount of stats will help Ywach here since GER already transcends such a concept. :kata:

3. GER doesn't need to damage Ywach in the semantic sense to win. GER will just create an Infinite Death Loop for Ywach and that's it. :myman:

To clarify, the IDL creates a new reality for its target after every one loop is over. Think of it as an endless cause where the effect never comes to fruition, just like what happened to Diavolo. :smoothy:
 
#25
Dawg, this is a stalemate lol.

But iirc, I think GER only activates when there's an action that is aiming at Giorno. Then GER will activates.

Like how King Crimson was trying to attack Giorno then GER got activated.

Yhwach's Almighty is passive (meaning no action involved) so Almighty probably wins this.
No, GER affects just about everything within a radius. Mista, an ally, shooting a gun at Diavolo still got his actions reversed back to 0 with him back to the point of loading the gun and the anime is even more explicit about this with things like leaves falling down being sent back to the tree, (which isn’t necessarily an action) and birds flying in reverse from having their flight path undone
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Also, I wouldn’t take the stat sheet of GER at face value as Araki is known to be incredibly hyperbolic when it comes to them. The willpower bit is contradicted by everyone affected perfectly capable of thought and fighting back with Diavolo trying to fight back to the bitter end

Also, for the stats, we’ve seen GER’s performance, faster than before but at a level where Diavolo can just barely react to its attacks without needing Epitath and strength wise it’s strong enough to kill Diavolo with a barrage of punches
 
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#26
Yhwach has so many mysterious abilities after absorbing the soul king into himself along with Yama’s bankai which is the power of the sun itself, every Quincy spell hopefully that gets fleshed out at some point and possibly an his holy form at it too.
 
#27
I think the way he destroys/negates abilities is by going to future instantly and destroying them. It all comes down to offensive power of almighty and how it works and whether it can by pass GER's causal reversal.
It's stated that he just changes them the way he sees fit. What Yhwach himself says is that he sits above them and watches all these timelines and can influence everything he sees.

This is like 99% hyperbolic, but it kinda indicates that he's not going to that future imo, but just changing it from where he is.
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Three things:

1. GER reverts ALL willpower and actions to zero. Even if Ywach conceptually takes no action, that doesn't mean there is no willpower involved in the working of The Almighty. Which means that The Almighty can still be returned to zero.


Also remember that KC can see the future, too, just like Ywach and it accomplished diddly squat against GER. :gokulaugh:

Like Astaro said, the willpower part is contradicted since Diavolo tried fighting back so it's not resetting willpower. There's also the fact that dealt with a similar ability to GER (Orihime, even if it's more limited).

I'm pretty sure Conceptual manipulation > Causality Manipulation

KC can only see one future, Yhwach can see and affect infinite possible futures at the same time. It's not a fair comparison.

Bleach has infinite future timelines and they all get affected by him.

. GER is beyond the concept of stats:



So, no amount of stats will help Ywach here since GER already transcends such a concept. :kata:

I don't believe these stat sheets are reliable. Why can't I argue that he's got 0 stats and is just fodder with broken hax( based on this sheet only)?

3. GER doesn't need to damage Ywach in the semantic sense to win. GER will just create an Infinite Death Loop for Ywach and that's it. :myman:

To clarify, the IDL creates a new reality for its target after every one loop is over. Think of it as an endless cause where the effect never comes to fruition, just like what happened to Diavolo. :smoothy:

How does he even create an infinite death loop? From what I remember he killed Diavolo and then reverted his death and made the loop. If I'm not remembering correctly, then please let me know.

Also talking about cause and effect, Orihime rejects past events from happening and removes the effects, but couldn't reject the Almighty's effects.
 
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#28
It's stated that he just changes them the way he sees fit. What Yhwach himself says is that he sits above them and watches all these timelines and can influence everything he sees.

This is like 99% hyperbolic, but it kinda indicates that he's not going to that future imo, but just changing it from where he is.
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Like Astaro said, the willpower part is contradicted since Diavolo tried fighting back so it's not resetting willpower. There's also the fact that dealt with a similar ability to GER (Orihime, even if it's more limited).

I'm pretty sure Conceptual manipulation > Causality Manipulation

KC can only see one future, Yhwach can see and affect infinite possible futures at the same time. It's not a fair comparison.

Bleach has infinite future timelines and they all get affected by him.




I don't believe these stat sheets are reliable. Why can't I argue that he's got 0 stats and is just fodder with broken hax( based on this sheet only)?




How does he even create an infinite death loop? From what I remember he killed Diavolo and then reverted his death and made the loop. If I'm not remembering correctly, then please let me know.

Also talking about cause and effect, Orihime rejects past events from happening and removes the effects, but couldn't reject the Almighty's effects.
Yhwach even tanked Ichigo’s grand ray cero saying how impressive it was and how much power he developed over time and then shattered it to pieces like nothing happened.
 
#30
Yhwach is overrated

When Yhwach goes into the future he needs to physically get involved to change the events. He said to Ichigo that his ability is no different then himself but he is involved in multiple futures while everyone else is just seeing the present.

In short, if Yhwach can't kill in him the present, then he can't kill him in the future either.
 
#31
Yhwach is overrated

When Yhwach goes into the future he needs to physically get involved to change the events. He said to Ichigo that his ability is no different then himself but he is involved in multiple futures while everyone else is just seeing the present.

In short, if Yhwach can't kill in him the present, then he can't kill him in the future either.
Yhwach underestimate the og gotei 13 thousand years ago got wrecked had to build a new army years later. Tolded Rody to keep Yamamoto busy while talking to Aizen in the underground prison came back and finished Yamamoto off. Learned his mistake from the past.
 
#32
Like Astaro said, the willpower part is contradicted since Diavolo tried fighting back so it's not resetting willpower.
When did this Diavolo fighting back happened exactly? Diavolo stopped fighting after he realized that his action was reverted to zero and there was an infinite amount of himself.

That's not "Diavolo fighting back, so willpower was not resetted" but more like "Diavolo did not realize his action and willpower were gone, that's why he thought he fought back when in reality he really did not."

There's also the fact that dealt with a similar ability to GER (Orihime, even if it's more limited).
Look, I don't know why you keep bringing up Orihime into this when it's clear that Giorno is a trillion tiers above her.

I'm pretty sure Conceptual manipulation > Causality Manipulation
Not completely. Even concepts cannot free themselves from cause and effect.

KC can only see one future, Yhwach can see and affect infinite possible futures at the same time. It's not a fair comparison.

Bleach has infinite future timelines and they all get affected by him.
It becomes fair since GER can also create an infinite amount of reality to send its target to the infinite death loop.

I don't believe these stat sheets are reliable. Why can't I argue that he's got 0 stats and is just fodder with broken hax( based on this sheet only)?
Sorry, but if you're not going to consider canon source, then what are you willing to consider?

Having "none" as your stat does not automatically mean you've got 0 or you're a fodder. They can also mean that such concepts are no longer applicable to you. IIRC, there's an official Jojo artbook out there that clarifies GER stats are translated as "none" because they are immeasurable by the usual Stand stats.

That can only mean GER transcends stats altogether.

How does he even create an infinite death loop? From what I remember he killed Diavolo and then reverted his death and made the loop. If I'm not remembering correctly, then please let me know.
GER did not kill Diavolo.

I know it's a bit confusing since GER's ability is called the "Infinite Death Loop", but it basically goes like this:

1. A rando opposes GER by, let's say, writing Giorno's name in the Death Note

2. GER reverts his action and willpower to zero

3. Thanks to number 2, Giorno's name is never written in the Death Note

4. In a continued retaliation, GER sends the rando to the infinite death loop

5. The rando experiences his first death loop: getting eaten alive by a pride of lions. However, since GER removes the effect from the cause, just before the moment the rando dies to the lions, GER passively creates a new reality for a second loop and sends the rando there

6. The rando experiences his second death loop: getting lawnmowered to death by a psycho. However, since GER removes the effect from the cause, just before the moment the rando dies to the lawnmower, GER passively creates a new reality for a third loop and sends the rando there

7. The rando experiences his third death loop: getting sentenced to death by a thousand cuts in Ancient China. However, since GER removes the effect from the cause, just before the moment the rando dies from the one thousandth cut, GER passively creates a new reality for a fourth loop and sends the rando there

Look, I can keep going, but I am not in infinite writing loop, so pretty sure you know what I mean by now, right?

Also talking about cause and effect, Orihime rejects past events from happening and removes the effects, but couldn't reject the Almighty's effects.
I already explained my argument in the above.

For me, the fight goes like this:

1. The Almighty notices Giorno somehow

2. GER notices TA noticing Giorno

3. GER reverts TA (and therefore Ywach) to zero

4. Ywach is put in an infinite death loop

That's it.

Not saying that Ywach affecting infinite timelines isn't crazy, but I don't think that's more impressive than literally creating a new reality, like GER, just so you can watch someone die forever. :myman:
 
#36
When did this Diavolo fighting back happened exactly? Diavolo stopped fighting after he realized that his action was reverted to zero and there was an infinite amount of himself.

That's not "Diavolo fighting back, so willpower was not resetted" but more like "Diavolo did not realize his action and willpower were gone, that's why he thought he fought back when in reality he really did not."
Astaro already posted it, but here as well. How are you going to say his willpower got reset, when he tried all the way until he started getting punched.

Look, I don't know why you keep bringing up Orihime into this when it's clear that Giorno is a trillion tiers above her.
Because their abilities work in a similar way. Orihime is just more limited but she does the same thing as GER does. It's about cause and effect.

Not completely. Even concepts cannot free themselves from cause and effect.
You do realize that cause and effect is a concept right? The idea of cause and effect? If you can manipulate all concepts you can also manipulate the concept of cause and effect.

It becomes fair since GER can also create an infinite amount of reality to send its target to the infinite death loop.
And they all get negated by the Almighty since it's seen into the future and negated from there. An action hasn't been taken so GER can't RTZ it.

Sorry, but if you're not going to consider canon source, then what are you willing to consider?

Having "none" as your stat does not automatically mean you've got 0 or you're a fodder. They can also mean that such concepts are no longer applicable to you. IIRC, there's an official Jojo artbook out there that clarifies GER stats are translated as "none" because they are immeasurable by the usual Stand stats.

That can only mean GER transcends stats altogether.
I'd like to see this artbook, but outside of these stat charts GER hasn't shown much stats wise.

GER did not kill Diavolo.

I know it's a bit confusing since GER's ability is called the "Infinite Death Loop", but it basically goes like this:

1. A rando opposes GER by, let's say, writing Giorno's name in the Death Note

2. GER reverts his action and willpower to zero

3. Thanks to number 2, Giorno's name is never written in the Death Note

4. In a continued retaliation, GER sends the rando to the infinite death loop

5. The rando experiences his first death loop: getting eaten alive by a pride of lions. However, since GER removes the effect from the cause, just before the moment the rando dies to the lions, GER passively creates a new reality for a second loop and sends the rando there

6. The rando experiences his second death loop: getting lawnmowered to death by a psycho. However, since GER removes the effect from the cause, just before the moment the rando dies to the lawnmower, GER passively creates a new reality for a third loop and sends the rando there

7. The rando experiences his third death loop: getting sentenced to death by a thousand cuts in Ancient China. However, since GER removes the effect from the cause, just before the moment the rando dies from the one thousandth cut, GER passively creates a new reality for a fourth loop and sends the rando there

Look, I can keep going, but I am not in infinite writing loop, so pretty sure you know what I mean by now, right?
You made sense until you got to number 4. I know about the "realties" that GER creates, but how the deathloop started was GER killing him no?

I already explained my argument in the above.

For me, the fight goes like this:

1. The Almighty notices Giorno somehow

2. GER notices TA noticing Giorno

3. GER reverts TA (and therefore Ywach) to zero

4. Ywach is put in an infinite death loop

That's it.

Not saying that Ywach affecting infinite timelines isn't crazy, but I don't think that's more impressive than literally creating a new reality, like GER, just so you can watch someone die forever. :myman:

Problem with that sequence is that since the Almighty is passive and looks into the future automatically, he's not actually taking an "action" yet. KC had to take the "action" of erasing time and doing whatever.

1. Almighty notices Giorno
2. It "understands" GER and now GER can't be used to fight him
3. RTZ doesn't work since it's negged
4. Yhwach just does whatever after that to kill him


Yhwach viewing infinite possible futures and having an affect on them at the same time while resisting causality manipulation (GER's power) means RTZ doesn't work.
 
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#37
Yhwach is overrated

When Yhwach goes into the future he needs to physically get involved to change the events. He said to Ichigo that his ability is no different then himself but he is involved in multiple futures while everyone else is just seeing the present.

In short, if Yhwach can't kill in him the present, then he can't kill him in the future either.
Yeah I think the same. In future he is physical interacting most likely
 
#38
Yhwach is overrated

When Yhwach goes into the future he needs to physically get involved to change the events.
This is not true. There is no evidence for this. If he physically destroyed Ichigo's bankai, then why was Ichigo harming him with it?

It's a hax, simple as that which doesn't scale to AP.


He said to Ichigo that his ability is no different then himself but he is involved in multiple futures while everyone else is just seeing the present.
This is taking out the context or it just flew over your head. He's not talking about himself literally. If that was the case, then him standing above all grains of sands (the infinite timelines) makes him what? Above time? Outside of time?

He's not physically/literally standing above all the timelines watching down.

It's just his ability/hax that he has.
 
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#39
This is not true. There is no evidence for this. If he physically destroyed Ichigo's bankai, then why was Ichigo harming him with it?

It's a hax, simple as that which doesn't scale to AP.




This is taking out the context and twisting it. Or it just flew over your head. He's not talking about himself literally. If that was the case, then him standing above all grains of sands (the infinite timelines) makes him what? Above time? Outside of time?

He's not physically/literally standing above all the timelines watching down.

It's just his ability/hax that he has.
Hopefully the anime staff working on core two can flesh out more scenes from the manga to get a better sense of Yhwach’s backstory.
 
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