Chapter Discussion Kizaru was the appetizer for Luffy. Lets be real. The Saturn fight is the main event.
- Thread starter Durableguy
- Start date
This is the funny part. I don't mind the gorosei being stronger than admirals and yonko.
Really this just means Zoro Sanji Luffy and presumably 2 other guys(Saturn goes down here) who are either pirates or revos reach new heights no pirate or marine has before.
In terms of fighting power
Really this just means Zoro Sanji Luffy and presumably 2 other guys(Saturn goes down here) who are either pirates or revos reach new heights no pirate or marine has before.
Post automatically merged:
In terms of fighting power
And how does that resolve the Nika, Kuma and Bonney plotline? They've been holding out hope for years that one day Nika will appear, and when it finally happens..... Kuma stays behind to save Nika?
The man who has sacrificed more than anyone, has to sacrifice even more, even though the liberator he's been waiting for has finally appeared? And what's worse, he has to sacrifice himself, so the man he was waiting for to save him, can escape?
The man who has sacrificed more than anyone, has to sacrifice even more, even though the liberator he's been waiting for has finally appeared? And what's worse, he has to sacrifice himself, so the man he was waiting for to save him, can escape?
I'm still not convinced that Saturn is above or even on par with Kizaru or any of the admirals for that matter. It takes more than powerful hax to be considered top tier. But yeah the goutsei are a luffy problem but that doesn't mean they're yonkou level.
But his condition will always be like that when he use g5. He could just jump around the city in g5 and end up looking like an old man. It's obvious the yonkou are above admirals which is why 5 admirals were present during the war of the best. Whitebeard fought with three admirals in one day. Can you imagine Kizaru fighting three yonkou in one day?
and do you know what whitebeard did in between all his skirmishes? Fought thousands of marines at once with cannons targeted at him. Emperors are rulers of the new world and their balance keeps them at check. The marines and wg are just a group that exist because Yonkou's have each other to compete with and the force of three admirals the entire wg and hundreds of allied nations is a huge huge task for any one yonkou. It was never stated that the wg runs the new world.
Laidou made it clear that two yonkou's teaming up is a force that could take over the world. Ie they thought that they could defeat the other Yonkous and the wg with their combined forces. That's two yonkous and eightish commanders against the entire force of the world. That's some scope for your ass.
Post automatically merged:
But his condition will always be like that when he use g5. He could just jump around the city in g5 and end up looking like an old man. It's obvious the yonkou are above admirals which is why 5 admirals were present during the war of the best. Whitebeard fought with three admirals in one day. Can you imagine Kizaru fighting three yonkou in one day?
and do you know what whitebeard did in between all his skirmishes? Fought thousands of marines at once with cannons targeted at him. Emperors are rulers of the new world and their balance keeps them at check. The marines and wg are just a group that exist because Yonkou's have each other to compete with and the force of three admirals the entire wg and hundreds of allied nations is a huge huge task for any one yonkou. It was never stated that the wg runs the new world.
Laidou made it clear that two yonkou's teaming up is a force that could take over the world. Ie they thought that they could defeat the other Yonkous and the wg with their combined forces. That's two yonkous and eightish commanders against the entire force of the world. That's some scope for your ass.
Last edited:
Kizaru blocked snakeman’s attacks all the way through, not just initially (Base form was also presumably completely useless unlike with Kaido who said it could go toe-to-toe with him). In fact, that’s the reason that Luffy switched into G5 in the first place because anything less was just insufficient.
Yasakani no Magatama is just for travel. Not sure which other 3 attacks you have in mind, but most of Kizaru’s attacks were just to distract Luffy while he went after his actual target.
And that’s the point, Kaido’s attack meant to kill Kinemon didn’t even do so…so it’s odd to try and bring up Sentomaru whom Kizaru wasn’t even trying to kill. Can’t go ignoring intent now.
Yasakani no Magatama is just for travel. Not sure which other 3 attacks you have in mind, but most of Kizaru’s attacks were just to distract Luffy while he went after his actual target.
And that’s the point, Kaido’s attack meant to kill Kinemon didn’t even do so…so it’s odd to try and bring up Sentomaru whom Kizaru wasn’t even trying to kill. Can’t go ignoring intent now.
--He did but it was clear luffy was not using adv coc for plot reasons.
vs
--You can argue using adv coc was meaningless against Kizaru's speed but the fact Kizaru needed to block states otherwise and I doubt Kizaru can block adv coc snakeman's attacks.
--I mean he used yaskani no magatama against sengoku which he dodged. Kaido did put kinnemon down from his basic club attack. Sentomaru also got up earlier where as Kinnemon was down for entire time.
vs
--You can argue using adv coc was meaningless against Kizaru's speed but the fact Kizaru needed to block states otherwise and I doubt Kizaru can block adv coc snakeman's attacks.
--I mean he used yaskani no magatama against sengoku which he dodged. Kaido did put kinnemon down from his basic club attack. Sentomaru also got up earlier where as Kinnemon was down for entire time.
--He did but it was clear luffy was not using adv coc for plot reasons.
vs
--You can argue using adv coc was meaningless against Kizaru's speed but the fact Kizaru needed to block states otherwise and I doubt Kizaru can block adv coc snakeman's attacks.
--I mean he used yaskani no magatama against sengoku which he dodged. Kaido did put kinnemon down from his basic club attack. Sentomaru also got up earlier where as Kinnemon was down for entire time.
vs
--You can argue using adv coc was meaningless against Kizaru's speed but the fact Kizaru needed to block states otherwise and I doubt Kizaru can block adv coc snakeman's attacks.
--I mean he used yaskani no magatama against sengoku which he dodged. Kaido did put kinnemon down from his basic club attack. Sentomaru also got up earlier where as Kinnemon was down for entire time.
Kizaru blocking at all seems to have just been him indulging Luffy. He wanted to find out why Luffy was protecting Vegapunk in the first place, just as in his conversation with Sentomaru.
He showed that he could move faster than Snakeman could even see or react to when he did the big kick to get him out of his way.
And no, Kin’emon’s lower half was running around farting and even went to get help even after taking a stab afterwards. And as already said, that was Kaido trying to kill Kinemon with 2 hands and a massive club with adv coc, as opposed to Kizaru pointing a finger.
--Adv coa G4 Luffy on rooftop only slightly pushed base Kaido where as base adv coc luffy made him fly. Base luffy pre adv coc instantly got defeated where as adv coc base luffy was giving a decent fight. Adv coc is a big powerup. Don't think Kizaru can block them.
--Yes he can move faster than snakeman but just like Kaido and even Kata , he needed to block them. What I mean is initially Kata was unable to react to snakeman but then got used to it. Kaido iniitally was pummeled but with FS dodged and dominated snakeman. Kizaru was no different. Initially he needed to block them and once he got used to it , he used high light speed.
--Did he? I don't remember Kinnemon's older half getting up. It was a nameless attack from base Kaido which did put Kizaru down.
--Yes he can move faster than snakeman but just like Kaido and even Kata , he needed to block them. What I mean is initially Kata was unable to react to snakeman but then got used to it. Kaido iniitally was pummeled but with FS dodged and dominated snakeman. Kizaru was no different. Initially he needed to block them and once he got used to it , he used high light speed.
--Did he? I don't remember Kinnemon's older half getting up. It was a nameless attack from base Kaido which did put Kizaru down.
Nah, we can’t be revising history now. Red Roc was the very first attack Luffy used and it knocked Kaido to the ground bleeding.
Even before that in Act 1, regular G3 was knocking Kaido out of the sky (and technically amped too since alcohol makes him stronger).
Adv CoC is a boost…but Kaido was still dodging even regular ryuo attacks and Luffy even mocked him for it.
You’ll have to blame Oda for making react in similar ways to Luffy’s attacks, whether from base to G5 and adv CoC or not.
Actually, Kizaru was indeed different. He never showed any difficulty in tracking Snakeman unlike Kata & Kaido that were going “where are these punches coming from?”
Again, he was chatting with Luffy to figure out his reasoning, then got rid of him when he didn’t answer the question and just asked one back.
Yeah, you can go back and check it to see Kin’emon’s lower half running around.
It was a nameless attack but it still used adv CoC and was a 2-handed swing with intent to kill. Aren’t you trying to argue that adv CoC is special?
Kizaru on the other hand just pointed a finger, just to get the control chip and not out his friend in a grave.
Even before that in Act 1, regular G3 was knocking Kaido out of the sky (and technically amped too since alcohol makes him stronger).
Adv CoC is a boost…but Kaido was still dodging even regular ryuo attacks and Luffy even mocked him for it.
You’ll have to blame Oda for making react in similar ways to Luffy’s attacks, whether from base to G5 and adv CoC or not.
Actually, Kizaru was indeed different. He never showed any difficulty in tracking Snakeman unlike Kata & Kaido that were going “where are these punches coming from?”
Again, he was chatting with Luffy to figure out his reasoning, then got rid of him when he didn’t answer the question and just asked one back.
Yeah, you can go back and check it to see Kin’emon’s lower half running around.
It was a nameless attack but it still used adv CoC and was a 2-handed swing with intent to kill. Aren’t you trying to argue that adv CoC is special?
Kizaru on the other hand just pointed a finger, just to get the control chip and not out his friend in a grave.
--Red rock was against base Kaido and Kaido didn't except luffy's attack to hurt him and probably has his guard down. In act 1 , luffy did no damage. Base luffy pre adv coc got defeated within seconds when he fought against Hybrid Kaido. The same luffy with adv coc then even over powers hybrid Kaido in 1010 and later does pretty good against hybrid Kaido. It is a significant boost.
--Kaido only was down for seconds when he took G4 adv coa gatling vs adv coc base luffy was putting Hybrid Kaido down bunch of times.
--We see him blocking those attacks but he did looked better initially.
--Character death depends on oda. Pell didn't die , pound didn't die etc. Similar oda didn't want Kinnemon dead. He still was unable to move. I will check if his lower part was moving around later on.
--Kaido only was down for seconds when he took G4 adv coa gatling vs adv coc base luffy was putting Hybrid Kaido down bunch of times.
--We see him blocking those attacks but he did looked better initially.
--Character death depends on oda. Pell didn't die , pound didn't die etc. Similar oda didn't want Kinnemon dead. He still was unable to move. I will check if his lower part was moving around later on.
Honestly bro, it’s comments like this that make me confused as to why you can’t grant the same sort of context & understanding to other characters (trolling aside).
You get Kaido not really expecting Luffy to be able to hurt him, hence the reaction…but you’d rather overlook things like Kizaru expecting G5 to run out so likewise not being on full guard for it.
Why can’t we all just get along? Sing kumbaya or if you prefer, do the Nika dance in harmony…giving all characters respect?
Anyway, the point is that adv CoC is indeed a boost but not to the point that it still couldn’t be blocked.
King for example could still block Zoro’s adv CoC just as he could block the non-adv CoC ones, with no indication that it was that much more strenuous.
The casual ease with which Kizaru was blocking those Snakeman strikes doesn’t suggest that just adding adv CoC would break through his blocks completely.
My objective here isn’t hyper analyze character deaths or the intricacies of how each gear of Luffy interacted with Kaido.
It was just to point out to give Kizaru his due. No one is easily “destroying” someone who could so thoroughly exhaust a stronger G5 Luffy to the point that he’s facing a worse drawback than when he was presumed dead.
You get Kaido not really expecting Luffy to be able to hurt him, hence the reaction…but you’d rather overlook things like Kizaru expecting G5 to run out so likewise not being on full guard for it.
Why can’t we all just get along? Sing kumbaya or if you prefer, do the Nika dance in harmony…giving all characters respect?
Anyway, the point is that adv CoC is indeed a boost but not to the point that it still couldn’t be blocked.
King for example could still block Zoro’s adv CoC just as he could block the non-adv CoC ones, with no indication that it was that much more strenuous.
The casual ease with which Kizaru was blocking those Snakeman strikes doesn’t suggest that just adding adv CoC would break through his blocks completely.
My objective here isn’t hyper analyze character deaths or the intricacies of how each gear of Luffy interacted with Kaido.
It was just to point out to give Kizaru his due. No one is easily “destroying” someone who could so thoroughly exhaust a stronger G5 Luffy to the point that he’s facing a worse drawback than when he was presumed dead.
Honestly bro, it’s comments like this that make me confused as to why you can’t grant the same sort of context & understanding to other characters (trolling aside).
You get Kaido not really expecting Luffy to be able to hurt him, hence the reaction…but you’d rather overlook things like Kizaru expecting G5 to run out so likewise not being on full guard for it.
Why can’t we all just get along? Sing kumbaya or if you prefer, do the Nika dance in harmony…giving all characters respect?
Anyway, the point is that adv CoC is indeed a boost but not to the point that it still couldn’t be blocked.
King for example could still block Zoro’s adv CoC just as he could block the non-adv CoC ones, with no indication that it was that much more strenuous.
The casual ease with which Kizaru was blocking those Snakeman strikes doesn’t suggest that just adding adv CoC would break through his blocks completely.
My objective here isn’t hyper analyze character deaths or the intricacies of how each gear of Luffy interacted with Kaido.
It was just to point out to give Kizaru his due. No one is easily “destroying” someone who could so thoroughly exhaust a stronger G5 Luffy to the point that he’s facing a worse drawback than when he was presumed dead.
You get Kaido not really expecting Luffy to be able to hurt him, hence the reaction…but you’d rather overlook things like Kizaru expecting G5 to run out so likewise not being on full guard for it.
Why can’t we all just get along? Sing kumbaya or if you prefer, do the Nika dance in harmony…giving all characters respect?
Anyway, the point is that adv CoC is indeed a boost but not to the point that it still couldn’t be blocked.
King for example could still block Zoro’s adv CoC just as he could block the non-adv CoC ones, with no indication that it was that much more strenuous.
The casual ease with which Kizaru was blocking those Snakeman strikes doesn’t suggest that just adding adv CoC would break through his blocks completely.
My objective here isn’t hyper analyze character deaths or the intricacies of how each gear of Luffy interacted with Kaido.
It was just to point out to give Kizaru his due. No one is easily “destroying” someone who could so thoroughly exhaust a stronger G5 Luffy to the point that he’s facing a worse drawback than when he was presumed dead.