General & Others Next Straw Hat Crew Members and the Grand Fleet

[Warback]

What do you think about Marineford and Jinbe. How do your feel about Jinbe's relevance there?

To me, Fishman island does not feel that much like a Jinbe arc. But Marineford somehow does. And I think this just gets overlooked because of Luffy having so much focus in it as well... .

I think basically almost all new SH patterns we're broken with Jimbei, Jimbei "arc" was spread across like 4 arcs, Impel Down, Marineford, Fishman island and Totland, so i don't think the next SH is going to be obvious per se if there's even any.

Saying that, Fishman's arc seemed to be more about Fisher Tiger, so i guess that's comparable to this Kuma/Bonney situation.


In Marineford, Jimbei was just one of many he had a bit of relevance i guess

 

[Rushwheel]

I'm just relaying a pattern i noticed with Oda with female emotional background characters in One Piece

There is a pattern, yes. There is also a difference between being a princess but also the center and the heart of the story with other characters as a support and being a princess that exists to support the story of another character.

I never said a "princess" character can't join the crew btw like some here assumed lol. By the logic we use right now everyone is a princess until some join which is... not a lie? xd. But you have to learn to see the difference between these types of "princess" or you'll fool yourself again like with Yamato and other "princesses" that came before her.

i don't feel like Jimbei was the relevant part of "his" arc or even that he had an arc about him.

Almost everything about Jinbe as a SH is odd and different tbh. I knew he'll join but the way Oda handled him until Onigashima in comparison the other SHs... let's say it looked like Oda cared less, I don't know what else to call it without hurting anyone's feelings.

 

[Rambles]

I think basically almost all new SH patterns we're broken with Jimbei, Jimbei "arc" was spread across like 4 arcs, Impel Down, Marineford, Fishman island and Totland, so i don't think the next SH is going to be obvious per se if there's even any.

Saying that, Fishman's arc seemed to be more about Fisher Tiger, so i guess that's comparable to this Kuma/Bonney situation.


In Marineford, Jimbei was just one of many he had a bit of relevance i guess

Oh, yes - I forgot about Totoland. And we forgot about his reappearance during Wano, when he finally did join. Oda did spread Jinbe's story all along this entire plot line. If you scrape together all of these arcs, does this count as one joining-story for him?

 

[Sigran101]

I'm just relaying a pattern i noticed with Oda with female emotional background characters in One Piece, i'm starting to believe that having protagonism in an arc, is relevant but not that important, i don't feel like Jimbei was the relevant part of "his" arc or even that he had an arc about him.

I'm not going to theorycraft anything, my standards are role and dream ( and even the dream can be anything), if she joins whatever, but i edging my bets on not, but if anything the odds are stacked agaisnt me since people think protagonism in an arc is important /flashback etc, we'll see.

Fair enough. Just seems to me like every female character is called the princess of the arc whether they fit or not, and even if they did, the same argument could have been used against half the crew, especially Robin and Nami. I'm still not sold on Bonney. I agree she needs a role and a dream. But sometimes those come late, like with Robin, Ussop, and Franky, and she has many other qualities that make her a good candidate. But it seems like every time people start latching onto a character, people start making up nonsense to try and disqualify them, even when there are actual good arguments against them.

 

[Warback]

There is a pattern, yes. There is also a difference between being a princess but also the center and the heart of the story with other characters as a support and being a princess that exists to support the story of another character.

I never said a "princess" character can't join the crew btw like some here assumed lol. By the logic we use right now everyone is a princess until some join which is... not a lie? xd. But you have to learn to see the difference between these types of "princess" or you'll fool yourself again like with Yamato and other "princesses" that came before her.

It's not that princess characters can't join or not, it's just that the protagonism they get is bogstandard at this point, i think if they join or not is disconnect from the attention they're getting. I'm not sure i understand the Yamato reference but to me Bonney is a Rebbeca on steroids with a sprinkle of Law, the diference is that noone cares about Kyros and it's a self contained character whislt Kuma is one of the OGs.

Oh, yes - I forgot about Totoland. And we forgot about his reappearance during Wano, when he finally did join. Oda did spread Jinbe's story all along this entire plot line. If you scrape together all of these arcs, does this count as one joining-story for him?

I felt that Jimbei joining was always with him as a secondary character over years to come, again i'm at a point where i don't think characters need a whole arc dedicated to them to join, either that or Oda is done with new SH and Jimbei was just the odd one out.

Fair enough. Just seems to me like every female character is called the princess of the arc whether they fit or not, and even if they did, the same argument could have been used against half the crew, especially Robin and Nami. I'm still not sold on Bonney. I agree she needs a role and a dream. But sometimes those come late, like with Robin, Ussop, and Franky, and she has many other qualities that make her a good candidate. But it seems like every time people start latching onto a character, people start making up nonsense to try and disqualify them, even when there are actual good arguments against them.

I say princess of the arc but it's more like a female of the arc Oda uses to convey a lot of emotional baggage, Rebbeca story isn't about her per se, it's about Kyros and what happened to him and his wife, but you have the perpective of Rebbeca being sad for the events she's living through. Bonney is more relevant than Rebbeca but she's following the same lines, with the extra of actually fighting and being somewhat usefull.

 

[Rushwheel]

the diference is that noone cares about Kyros and it's a self contained character whislt Kuma is one of the OGs.

This is actually true. If Rebecca was Kuma's daughter instead she'd probably valued more in the fandom.

Not-related: I hope Oda adds to Bonney something that will help me to see her separately from her father as a character. Not something huge like with the Straw Hats but like with Momo for example. Some growth or change of heart under Luffy's or the SHs influence. Give her something her own to have as a character, Oda. Then I'll take my words about her benefitting off of Kuma's story back maybe. (I didn't even call her a princess when I said that, how did it come to this lol).
Anyway watch me getting another W after the towel disaster because Bonney won't join the Straw Hats either.

 

[Sigran101]

It's not that princess characters can't join or not, it's just that the protagonism they get is bogstandard at this point, i think if they join or not is disconnect from the attention they're getting. I'm not sure i understand the Yamato reference but to me Bonney is a Rebbeca on steroids with a sprinkle of Law, the diference is that noone cares about Kyros and it's a self contained character whislt Kuma is one of the OGs.



I felt that Jimbei joining was always with him as a secondary character over years to come, again i'm at a point where i don't think characters need a whole arc dedicated to them to join, either that or Oda is done with new SH and Jimbei was just the odd one out.



I say princess of the arc but it's more like a female of the arc Oda uses to convey a lot of emotional baggage, Rebbeca story isn't about her per se, it's about Kyros and what happened to him and his wife, but you have the perpective of Rebbeca being sad for the events she's living through. Bonney is more relevant than Rebbeca but she's following the same lines, with the extra of actually fighting and being somewhat usefull.

I referenced Yamato because people were also calling her the arc princess in Wano. I get what you mean about female characters being important just to be used as an emotional connection to the plot, but you have to admit that Bonney's deep connection with Luffy throughout the flashback, especially at the very end when Kuma passed his will on to both of them at the same time, puts her in a very different spot than the likes of Rebecca. You can call it a combination of aspects of different characters, but that really just means she's in a unique situation that doesn't really fit any existing mold. I think it's likely that she'll join, but like I said, I'm not jumping on a train until I see a role and a dream. I think we agree on that at least.

 

[Rushwheel]

but you have to admit that Bonney's deep connection with Luffy throughout the flashback, especially at the very end when Kuma passed his will on to both of them at the same time

Bonney doesn't have a "deep" connection with Luffy throughout the flashback, she shares the same traits with Kuma who does have it -although one-sided- since he devoted a lot to Luffy during his last conscious years. It's the same thing as Yamato reading Oden's journal (aka getting a crucial information the character will need to know this arc to fulfil it's purpose), there is nothing unique about it. And of course being a sun god Nika believer doesn't automatically make you a SH candidate.

 

[Woozles]

Gonna be honest.

Pretendsing like Bonney is a passive secondary product in the arc is pretty disingenuous. Even with Kuma being the primary focus of the flashback. Bonney is in no way a secondary player. Oda clearly dedicates a significant deal of narrative real estate to Bonney when she actually shows up, and not just purely as the daughter of Kuma.

Oda goes out of his way to show us Bonney training, tell us Bonney's dreams and desires, having her learn from Conney and I'd say most importantly. 1101, as pointed out by a lot of japanese readers, rather intentionally parallels luffy during chapter 1.

It's not just kuma's flashback, it's Kuma and bonney's flashback. Not unlike how Otohime's flashback is also Fisher tiger's even though he has less real estate than she does within it.

Also whenever people bring up the whole "deep connection with luffy" thing.

I'll keep going back to Chopper.

Who Luffy didn't know was a Doctor
Who luffy did not call by name for his ENTIRE ARC
And who Luffy chose to be a member of his crew entirely because he thought rumble ball was cool.


Bonney is the clear emotional core of this arc. It starts with the Straw hats meeting Bonney. Most of this arc has been encircling bonney's quest for revenge, and the climax of this arc is encircling Bonney's desire for Revenge and waning faith in Nika (Who is who Luffy represents)

 

[Malakhith]

There's a big difference between Chopper and Bonney. At the time, new members appeared when Oda stated that they lacked something (before arlong park they complain about the lack of navigator, before Sanji they talk about how important a good chef is and so on). Chopper was show when they needed a doctor and has show a compatible dream that will be finished at the end of the series.

Bonney lack both. No role and no dream. The only thing she has is a desire to live with her father.

 

[Woozles]

There's a big difference between Chopper and Bonney. At the time, new members appeared when Oda stated that they lacked something (before arlong park they complain about the lack of navigator, before Sanji they talk about how important a good chef is and so on). Chopper was show when they needed a doctor and has show a compatible dream that will be finished at the end of the series.

Bonney lack both. No role and no dream. The only thing she has is a desire to live with her father.

Bonney has repeatedly mentioned travelling the world as her dream. Bonney's desires don't just begin and end at kuma even if he's a big source of them.

 

[Sigran101]

Bonney doesn't have a "deep" connection with Luffy throughout the flashback, she shares the same traits with Kuma who does have it -although one-sided- since he devoted a lot to Luffy during his last conscious years. It's the same thing as Yamato reading Oden's journal (aka getting a crucial information the character will need to know this arc to fulfil it's purpose), there is nothing unique about it. And of course being a sun god Nika believer doesn't automatically make you a SH candidate.

One of her two life goals was literally to meet Luffy, she just didn't know it was him yet. That absolutely does make her a candidate, especially since she has nowhere else to go, assuming Kuma doesn't come back to life.

 

[Malakhith]

Bonney has repeatedly mentioned travelling the world as her dream. Bonney's desires don't just begin and end at kuma even if he's a big source of them.

I recommend you to read again when she mentioned travelling. It was always fun places to visit with Kuma when she turns 10. So, yes, it is related to kuma. Not only that but it's not a dream that will be complete EOS.

 

[Woozles]

I recommend you to read again when she mentioned travelling. It was always fun places to visit with Kuma when she turns 10. So, yes, it is related to kuma. Not only that but it's not a dream that will be complete EOS.

And Nami's is? Last I checked, she doesn't just copy what others do, she personally maps the, already discovered, islands she travels to. And She's not been to West, South nor North Blue.

Post automatically merged: Jan 4, 2024

People forget Nami's dream isn't just to draw the Map

 

[Malakhith]

And Nami's is? Last I checked, she doesn't just copy what others do, she personally maps the, already discovered, islands she travels to. And She's not been to West, South nor North Blue.

Yes. That's why her dream will only be finished at the EOS, probably in a epilogue. Because is not something that she can finish during the journey, just like every SH dream.

 

[Woozles]

Yes. That's why her dream will only be finished at the EOS, probably in a epilogue. Because is not something that she can finish during the journey, just like every SH dream.

So a dream that involves going around the world can't be completed EoS... but another dream that involves going around the world can be completed EoS...

 

[Malakhith]

So a dream that involves going around the world can't be completed EoS... but another dream that involves going around the world can be completed EoS...

One dream can be completed by buying a ticket to a cruise to go to those specific islands and can be finished anytime.
Another will need the person to travel through the whole world, including unknown places, and need to be specific dealt with a epilogue because of how difficult it is.
So yes. One is SH material and the other isn't.
Maybe I'm not expressing myself too well but what I mean by dream being complete EOS is that the dream can only be finished during the last steps of the SH journey and not before. Brook dream needed a addendum (that he needs to complete the travel around the world before seeing Laboon) because otherwise he could had completed this dream during the timeskip. So, as a example, Usopp will only be truly brave EOS and not before because otherwise he will not have a dream to fulfill EOS.
Travelling to islands that the SH already went is not a dream that will be finished EOS and simple something that she can do anytime just by buying a cruise ticket.

 

[Woozles]

One dream can be completed by buying a ticket to a cruise to go to those specific islands and can be finished anytime.
Another will need the person to travel through the whole world, including unknown places, and need to be specific dealt with a epilogue because of how difficult it is.
So yes. One is SH material and the other isn't.
Maybe I'm not expressing myself too well but what I mean by dream being complete EOS is that the dream can only be finished during the last steps of the SH journey and not before. Brook dream needed a addendum (that he needs to complete the travel around the world before seeing Laboon) because otherwise he could had completed this dream during the timeskip. So, as a example, Usopp will only be truly brave EOS and not before because otherwise he will not have a dream to fulfill EOS.
Travelling to islands that the SH already went is not a dream that will be finished EOS and simple something that she can do anytime just by buying a cruise ticket.

Bonney specified she wanted to travel the world. And the two places she first specified are Fishman Island and the Sky Islands. Neither of which are tourist spots you can "cruise" to, but I'm sure you already knew that.

Her dream wasn't just to go to those two locations, it was to travel the world with them being used as examples, likely cause it underscores unique places the SH have gone. But it didn't begin and end at them. Hell when she went to sea, she made it a priority to take it slow and explore islands looking for Nika.

 

[Warback]

Gonna be honest.

Pretendsing like Bonney is a passive secondary product in the arc is pretty disingenuous. Even with Kuma being the primary focus of the flashback. Bonney is in no way a secondary player. Oda clearly dedicates a significant deal of narrative real estate to Bonney when she actually shows up, and not just purely as the daughter of Kuma.

Oda goes out of his way to show us Bonney training, tell us Bonney's dreams and desires, having her learn from Conney and I'd say most importantly. 1101, as pointed out by a lot of japanese readers, rather intentionally parallels luffy during chapter 1.

It's not just kuma's flashback, it's Kuma and bonney's flashback. Not unlike how Otohime's flashback is also Fisher tiger's even though he has less real estate than she does within it.

Also whenever people bring up the whole "deep connection with luffy" thing.

I'll keep going back to Chopper.

Who Luffy didn't know was a Doctor
Who luffy did not call by name for his ENTIRE ARC
And who Luffy chose to be a member of his crew entirely because he thought rumble ball was cool.


Bonney is the clear emotional core of this arc. It starts with the Straw hats meeting Bonney. Most of this arc has been encircling bonney's quest for revenge, and the climax of this arc is encircling Bonney's desire for Revenge and waning faith in Nika (Who is who Luffy represents)

That's what happened with Law/Corazon and Rebbeca/Kyros tho. The diference is that this is the first time this happens with 2 relevant characters in OP and not just arccentric characters.

 

[Malakhith]

Bonney specified she wanted to travel the world. And the two places she first specified are Fishman Island and the Sky Islands. Neither of which are tourist spots you can "cruise" to, but I'm sure you already knew that.

Her dream wasn't just to go to those two locations, it was to travel the world with them being used as examples, likely cause it underscores unique places the SH have gone. But it didn't begin and end at them. Hell when she went to sea, she made it a priority to take it slow and explore islands looking for Nika.

Again, if you pick the pages it was stated as something that she would do with her father after she got cured, it barely counted as a dream. Kuma during his travels mentioned places he wanted to go with her. After she got to the sea she went to find Kuma and had to pass to fishermen island to get to the new world. Everything is about Kuma and connected with him. If Kuma dies like you lot want her dream will never be possible to be finished (assuming this is a true dream) and would have to be refurbished to fit.

Not only that the places that she mentioned that she wanted to see are all places that were show in the story and that she can go without issues during the series. If she joins she just has to mention it to Luffy for them to go. It's not something that will only be finished EOS. What part of this is ambiguous or hard to understand?