That it's true which is why I say that it's not so simple. When California increased taxes for the wealthy, they all jumped ship to states like Texas. Then Cali tried making the worker class cover the bill which a chunk of them leave too. Now Cali is an ever-growing shithole.

Those with money got too many other options to dip.
Yes there is no right solution how to satisfy both sides .
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Because you don't understand the reasons why those terms exist in the first place...


This is actually true. But this would mean that those people are living with contradictions..


Its debatable. On one hand its a good place to bring random political subjects on the table, on the other, the fact that it is THE place to talk about politic makes it a conflictual place.

In reality, there should be at least two places (which is why I'm keeping "the woke place" alive. One for simple leftists, socialists, anarchist and communist and one for simple rightist, liberal/ultra liberal and conservative. This would help reduce the conflictuality. The problem is that there is not a lot of real leftists (and not just liberals who says they support lgbt+) on this forum and the rightist/liberals/centrist are mostly letting the conservatists speak here, which makes this thread an echo chamber for bigoted ideas.

This is why I try to create such an echo and why I ask the staff to authorize the politization of other places of discussion in order to reintegrate political reflexions in the places where they belongs, instead of letting bigots occupy the only place for it and thus allowing the rest of the forum to stay a place of toxicity incapable of questionning itself.

The lack of understanding for the politization of stories and discussions about stories by the right would therefore be balanced by more positive reflexions of leftists like me who understand the importance for the politization of diverse subject. This would gradually negates the ambiant toxicity of the forum bit by bit. This might also negate a bit the reputation of the trash enabling nature of the forum, but it would increase consequently its quality.


But you consider that its okay for people to display transphobia (that deem yourself to be "not transphobia" or "buzzwords"), you do not see the problem with people displaying bigoted and very problematic ideas here, you are against the politization of important subjects, the recognition of systemic issues and the reflexion about sexism and racism through the lens of the visions of pop culture fandom on their story, you believe in the all mighty "nuanced society" and you don't understand what is wrong with dogpillings or harrassments, sometimes even participating in it.

Those are the vision of someone who understands that there is problem in society, but refuses to question the system or themself: In my "idiot" book (nobody is fooled) . We call people like you "progressive liberals" (and I'm being kind). In short, the most leftists part of the right spectrum.

But hey... maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you just have a strong bias against me which makes you appear as really not endeering. Maybe you are actually the right of the leftist spectrum, let's see:

What do you think about the notion of meritocracy ?
I think Meritocracy will work in big countries if it has required infrastructure . Lee kuan Yew was one of few visionary who made Singapore what it is today .

China does it to some extent communism is just a name .

So yea downside if necessary check and balance are not placed few will hold power and it automatically always lead to Oligarchy in my view .
 
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That is true which is why I say that it's not so simple. When California increased taxes for the wealthy, they all jumped ship to states like Texas. Then Cali tried making the worker class cover the bill which a chunk of them leave too. Now Cali is an ever-growing shithole.

Those with money got too many other options to dip.
The thing about California is that it isn’t as left wing as people think it is.

California is liberal, meaning they support things like lgbt and minority rights, but it also means they support capitalism.

What this ultimately means is that the economy is not structured to benefit the needs of the people but rather a small group of wealthy elites.
 

Zemmi

GodMommie
The thing about California is that it isn’t as left wing as people think it is.

California is liberal, meaning they support things like lgbt and minority rights, but it also means they support capitalism.

What this ultimately means is that the economy is not structured to benefit the needs of the people but rather a small group of wealthy elites.
The real thing about California is it's turned into a shithole, that normal people want to escape.
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I didn't even read @Uncle Van comment. Whoops
 
The thing about California is that it isn’t as left wing as people think it is.

California is liberal, meaning they support things like lgbt and minority rights, but it also means they support capitalism.

What this ultimately means is that the economy is not structured to benefit the needs of the people but rather a small group of wealthy elites.
If small group of wealthy elites control the govt structure unfortunately it’s oligarchy .
 

Uncle Van

Bullets don't hurt. But Taxes do.
The thing about California is that it isn’t as left wing as people think it is.

California is liberal, meaning they support things like lgbt and minority rights, but it also means they support capitalism.

What this ultimately means is that the economy is not structured to benefit the needs of the people but rather a small group of wealthy elites.
People only think Cali is leftist cause they vote blue. The democratic party are right wing.
 
You can be conservative and support lgbtq :kayneshrug:

Unlike a few idiots here who think everything is black and white and don't know terms by definition, it ain't that simple. I'm not anti-capitalist which is right wing, but I think the private sector should be weakened, worker rights increased, and that housing shouldn't be a tradable commodity, all of which are leftist or even flat out socialist.
I think most conservatives support LGBs, the Ts are the issue, to a point that some of the LGBs want to stay away from the group. When they add the rest of the alphabet because of their delusions any amount of good faith will be gone.
EDIT: This Dave special on the T's is spot on in what I mean
That is true which is why I say that it's not so simple. When California increased taxes for the wealthy, they all jumped ship to states like Texas. Then Cali tried making the worker class cover the bill which a chunk of them leave too. Now Cali is an ever-growing shithole.

Those with money got too many other options to dip.
Nah, the issue is that most leftist government are filled with incompetence and try to do things that sound good in theory but are shit in practice.
Add the huge amount of incompetent snowflakes that want to steal things from their betters instead of working for it and you have a recipe to failure.
 
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I know pretty well. French revolution. It made sense just at time. Not in current days.
No you don't. The reason those notion emerged is not because of the revolution invented something, its because someone needed to put a name on a political phenomenon.

The notion of right and left are the result of a political phenomen, a result of the conflict of value systems and are still relevant today. Although I can grant you the fact that they should not be named like that.

The left should be called "mostly right side" and the right should be called the "mostly wrong side". But hey.. let's not confuse people too much! Its already hard enough with people like you.

:shocking:


I think Meritocracy will work in big countries if it has required infrastructure
Meritocracy doesn't work and will never work. The reason is simple, its based on a myth. On literal false narrative and a ignorance of social structures.

China does it to some extent communism is just a name
Indeed, there is no such thing as communism in the world, just as there is no such thing as meritocracy.


California is liberal, meaning they support things like lgbt and minority rights, but it also means they support capitalism.

What this ultimately means is that the economy is not structured to benefit the needs of the people but rather a small group of wealthy elites
This.


I think most conservatives support LGBs, the Ts are the issue, to a point that some of the LGBs want to stay away from the group. When they add the rest of the alphabet because of their delusions any amount of good faith will be gone.
Indeed, its possible to be pro LGB and be a bigot.


Nah, the issue is that most leftist government are filled with incompetence and try to do things that sound good in theory but are shit in practice.
I'm sure you have a lot of example of REAL leftist policies applied to society that were sh*t in practice.

Let me ask you : Do you feel like:

- Universal healthcare
- 35 hours week
- Minimum wage
- Union rights
- Unemployment insurance
- Rights of Strike
- Retirement at 60
- Abortion rights
- Same sex Mariage
and hundreds more...


... Are "sh*t in practice" ?

(just to know where you stand when you are talking about social leftist politicies)
 
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H

Herrera95

No you don't. The reason those notion emerged is not because of the revolution invented something, its because someone needed to put a name on a political phenomenon.

The notion of right and left are the result of a political phenomen, a result of the conflict of value systems and are still relevant today. Although I can grant you the fact that they should not be named like that.

The left should be called "mostly right side" and the right should be called the "mostly wrong side". But hey.. let's not confuse people too much! Its already hard enough with people like you.

:shocking:
You really like to deny history don't you
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^ This Fucker just wants anything and everything to be allowed. Fucking stupid. If having no standard, then you doom the world.
Rise in Crime etc...
Depends how you do it. "Allowing" everything never really happens. Humankind historically since beginning make up groups (society) and have laws.
 
This Fucker just wants anything and everything to be allowed. Fucking stupid
You know there is something very funny in what you are saying.

Just a few weeks ago. @Herrera95 and yourself said this:

Freedom of speech really bothers you doesn't?
Free speech is free speech, Anything else is not that, What you are advocating for is not such.
So strangely back then, you were absolutely FOR a type of absolute liberty. But... since I'm the one who is advocating for more liberty in the freedom of speech on this forum.. suddenly.. I'm "F*cking stupid" ?

:myman:

In reality what interest you is not freedom of speech or liberty. Its YOUR liberty and the freedom for YOUR speech. In reality you don't want people around the world to get better situation, you just want to be sure that YOU get the right hand of the stick and since YOU believe in the myth of meritocracy and those BS rightist concepts.. then what leftists are doing is wrong by default since they don't agree with that, even if you have no way of explaining or prove why...


You really like to deny history don't you
I know my history thank you. You, on the other hand, have a little problem of political denial. Which is logical.. no one (aside from straight up fascist) would accept themself to accept the label of "far right" that the left puts on them. So you feel obligated to reject the notion of right and left since it will ultimately puts you into that side..
 

Uncle Van

Bullets don't hurt. But Taxes do.
I think most conservatives support LGBs, the Ts are the issue, to a point that some of the LGBs want to stay away from the group. When they add the rest of the alphabet because of their delusions any amount of good faith will be gone.
EDIT: This Dave special on the T's is spot on in what I mean

Nah, the issue is that most leftist government are filled with incompetence and try to do things that sound good in theory but are shit in practice.
Add the huge amount of incompetent snowflakes that want to steal things from their betters instead of working for it and you have a recipe to failure.
There have been plenty of leftist/socialist governments and nations that have thrived. Finland for example is capitalist, but has strong socialist policies and barely has a homeless problem as a result. Minimum wage workers in other European countries have paid leave, sick leave and paternity leave that is mandated by socialist/leftist policy.

Evo Morales, 65th president of Bolivia was a socialist and everyone was doing great. He was democratically elected and loved by his nation. America didn't like that and painted him a dictator who forced his way into power, trying numerous times to get him out of office or to make lean to capitalism. The reason US hated him was because he was removing American and european captialist influence from the country.

Then we have Thomas Sankara, former president of Burkina Faso. Though a Marxist revolutionary, he sought free Healthcare, education and housing and succeeded. He also campaigned to develop vaccines to eliminate diseases like polio. Dude improved his nation in just a few years. His policies was really cutting into the profits of western captialism. And of course, with funding from the U.S., he was assassinated, his policies overturned, and the country as a whole declined.
 
There have been plenty of leftist/socialist governments and nations that have thrived. Finland for example is capitalist, but has strong socialist policies and barely has a homeless problem as a result. Minimum wage workers in other European countries have paid leave, sick leave and paternity leave that is mandated by socialist/leftist policy.

Evo Morales, 65th president of Bolivia was a socialist and everyone was doing great. He was democratically elected and loved by his nation. America didn't like that and painted him a dictator who forced his way into power, trying numerous times to get him out of office or to make lean to capitalism. The reason US hated him was because he was removing American and european captialist influence from the country.

Then we have Thomas Sankara, former president of Burkina Faso. Though a Marxist revolutionary, he sought free Healthcare, education and housing and succeeded. He also campaigned to develop vaccines to eliminate diseases like polio. Dude improved his nation in just a few years. His policies was really cutting into the profits of western captialism. And of course, with funding from the U.S., he was assassinated, his policies overturned, and the country as a whole declined.
First, none of those countries were socialist. If they were they would be fucked since socialism only brings despair to populations. Having some leftist policies does not make something socialist. Using Morales as a example, he indeed managed to use commodities to invest in the nation and improve the nation (similar to some other countries in the area) but as soon as the market started to change the country started to go to hell. Compare that with Chile and you will see why. (BTW, like most socialists he indeed tried some maneuvers to turn into a dictator, including the frauds in 19, this is not propaganda.).

Overall, the most leftist policies are implemented without consideration for the reality, the worst the end result will be.
 
H

Herrera95

So strangely back then, you were absolutely FOR a type of absolute liberty. But... since I'm the one who is advocating for more liberty in the freedom of speech on this forum.. suddenly.. I'm "F*cking stupid" ?

:myman:

In reality what interest you is not freedom of speech or liberty. Its YOUR liberty and the freedom for YOUR speech. In reality you don't want people around the world to get better situation, you just want to be sure that YOU get the right hand of the stick and since YOU believe in the myth of meritocracy and those BS rightist concepts.. then what leftists are doing is wrong by default since they don't agree with that, even if you have no way of explaining or prove why...
You are the only one with victim mentality here. The forum is private place (open to public but it is a private domain) and has its rules which you agreed to follow when you made your account. Everyone is treated equal and is under to respect and follow the same rules. You are the one breaking it and calling it censorship.

Is not even like you can't talk a shit here. Just that there is a certain area. So basically what you want is to talk about Satan inside a catholic church when you can have your own Satan church to speak about it.

I know my history thank you. You, on the other hand, have a little problem of political denial. Which is logical.. no one (aside from straight up fascist) would accept themself to accept the label of "far right" that the left puts on them. So you feel obligated to reject the notion of right and left since it will ultimately puts you into that side..
I don't accept being called for right because I don't fell like that just like you don't feel far left. But thanks at least to agree that I'm not fascist.

And I'm just saying I don't think left and right are good to talk about ones political views because people have views that are told to be to one side or the other. For example I'm totally in favor of liberation drugs for fun use but that doesn't make me a leftist. I'm pro liberty. And that can exist in both sides.
 
Let me ask you : Do you feel like:

- Universal healthcare
- 35 hours week
- Minimum wage
- Union rights
- Unemployment insurance
- Rights of Strike
- Retirement at 60
- Abortion rights
- Same sex Mariage
and hundreds more...


... Are "sh*t in practice" ?

(just to know where you stand when you are talking about social leftist politicies)
>universal healthcare

Yes. I see it in my country and it sucks. However, this depends a lot of some factors. I actually think that some of the procedures that were done in the city of São Paulo-Brazil (partnership between the government and some private hospitals) can be a step in the right direction. Basically, as long as it is in the hands of the government it sucks.

>35 hours week

It depends on a variety of factors. If someone try to claim this to every single job I will assume he is either stupid or crazy.

> Minimum wage

Yes. See answer to healthcare.

> Union rights

No. As long as the act of joining a union is voluntary

> Unemployment insurance

As long as the employee accepts the discount on his paycheck and can stop the withdraw/take away the money when he wants is ok and sometimes even useful since many people don't have the habit of saving.

> Rights of Strike

It depends.

>Retirement at 60

Yes.

>Abortion rights

As long as the pregnancy happened without the consent of the mother (rape) or the pregnancy either causes the mother to suffer the risk of death or the child suffers from some deformity that makes living impossible or a living hell. If the mother wants to kill the child because she was stupid to open her legs to a asshole fuck her.

>Same sex Mariage

No issue with civil marriage. Trying to force religions to celebrate the marriage should be prohibited.
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If the power is socialist and apply socialist policies it doesn't mean that there is socialism in place ?
Open any basic introductory book on socialism. Look at the part about abolishing private property and state based economy. Try to understand what that means.
Look at the countries mentioned by @Uncle Van and if you still dares to claim that they are socialist you should take your meds.
 
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Uncle Van

Bullets don't hurt. But Taxes do.
Open any basic introductory book on socialism. Look at the part about abolishing private property and state based economy. Try to understand what that means.
Look at the countries mentioned by @Uncle Van and if you still dares to claim that they are socialist you should take your meds.
Socialism is an umbrella term. Abolishing private property and having a state based economy is communism. All communist are socialist but not all socialist are communist. You can call it far left socialism. Almost all communism nations fell apart because they were run by dictators(no I don't support communist nations or economies).
 
Socialism is an umbrella term. Abolishing private property and having a state based economy is communism. All communist are socialist but not all socialist are communist. You can call it far left socialism. Almost all communism nations fell apart because they were run by dictators(no I don't support communist nations or economies).
If you squint to much you will be able to claim everything as socialist, it seems. The fact is that socialism and communism have specific definitions and they are only considered a umbrella term by activists trying to distance themselves from the failures of previous attempts of communists. Socialism in the end just tries to bring the shit communism.
The fact is that every single nation you mentioned was capitalist. Most of the movements you mentioned are under social democracy.
PS: In the end, I believe we are talking about the same things but using different terms. I actually have to apologize because I absolutely despise communism and socialism and looking at your posts you seem way more moderate than I was giving credit for.
 
You are the only one with victim mentality here.
Please, tell me what is your problem the "victim mentality". Since you seems to think that asking for more political liberty in the discussion forum is bad... go on. Explain to me the problem with that "mentality" ?


and has its rules which you agreed to follow when you made your account.
And since when accepting to follow rules to join a group, means accepting not to question any of those rules ?
You don't see the problem with your logic ?


OH ? Do you felt like I feel censored ? Did I ever said that I felt censored ? Dude... You are really underestimating me right now...

Until now, I've been able to say exactly what I wanted to say on this forum, no matter how many ban I faced

:myman:

I understand perfectly the rules of this forum and I understand exactly why I'm banned when its happens, even if I consider those ban unjust on an ethical plan. I sometimes disagree with the sanctions, I can find the rules unjust, in fact I fight those sanction on an ethical plan (by trying to make mods understand why they are noethical), I can ask for a clarification on the sanction, but I take responsibility when they are applied mate, I don't cry because I'm being rejected from a space.

When I break a rule, I don't expect mods not to follow them since we discuss under a power that doesn't question its own rules. This is the difference between me and you. I don't feel censored at all:

Yes. I don't have freedom of speech. I'm being censored right now.
You report people that disagree with you. That info you try to censor.

Just that there is a certain area
Which is problematic for multiple reasons.


So basically what you want is to talk about Satan inside a catholic church when you can have your own Satan church to speak about it
You are making here a highly fallacious comparison. Since for it to be correct, political discussion would need to be non related to the subject of topic where I want to integrate more political discussion. Yet.. we are on a forum discussion about a story that is HIGHLY politically engaged. Meaning that politicizing the discussion in this context, especially when said discussions have something to do with the them included in the story is perfectly relevant and important.

What I want, is to stop people from separating politics from art and especially stories.

Stories are one of the most political support there is in history. Trying to depoliticize discussion about stories is a act of negation of the nature of those stories. Its a political act of suppression of opinion and political awareness.


I don't fell like that just like you don't feel far left
But you can call me far left if you want. Contrary to you, I do not take that badly. I would LOVE to be far left, I just don't have enough knowledge to be far left yet !

That's the difference between my political side and yours. You know full well that your far side is problematic and extremely dangerous. I know full well that mine is not.

:kayneshrug:


But thanks at least to agree that I'm not fascist
Trust me, if I thought that you were fascist.. you would see a whole new face of mine.


And I'm just saying I don't think left and right are good to talk about ones political views because people have views that are told to be to one side or the other.
The problem is that you don't understand why there is a left and a right side (aside from historical relevance). The reason why those notions have survived is not because its history, its because its relevant in term of political values:

Those two groups are ennemies because people in those groups shares similar sets of value systems and because those value system enter in conflict because of their nature.

For example, the left believe in the absence of meritocracy and the notions of social capitals when the left believe in the existence of merit. This shiism is foundamental because its the basis for a entire division in terms of value systems and politics.

This type of division exist for a large number of values and this is why there is a right and a left side.

You can be for progressive or conservative values.. but you will foundamentally believe in one of the two value system that is the base of the right or the left. For example, liberal usually believe in the right for LGBTQ+ but they only started to believe in those notion because of the pressure of the environment. In reality, they believe in the power of meritocracy and capitalism which is the foundamental ennemy of the left side.


>universal healthcare

Yes. I see it in my country and it sucks. However, this depends a lot of some factors. I actually think that some of the procedures that were done in the city of São Paulo-Brazil (partnership between the government and some private hospitals) can be a step in the right direction. Basically, as long as it is in the hands of the government it sucks.

>35 hours week

It depends on a variety of factors. If someone try to claim this to every single job I will assume he is either stupid or crazy.

> Minimum wage

Yes. See answer to healthcare.

> Union rights

No. As long as the act of joining a union is voluntary

> Unemployment insurance

As long as the employee accepts the discount on his paycheck and can stop the withdraw/take away the money when he wants is ok and sometimes even useful since many people don't have the habit of saving.

> Rights of Strike

It depends.

>Retirement at 60

Yes.

>Abortion rights

As long as the pregnancy happened without the consent of the mother (rape) or the pregnancy either causes the mother to suffer the risk of death or the child suffers from some deformity that makes living impossible or a living hell. If the mother wants to kill the child because she was stupid to open her legs to a asshole fuck her.

>Same sex Mariage

No issue with civil marriage. Trying to force religions to celebrate the marriage should be prohibited.
So basically you have a lot of problem to understand what is sh*t and what is not sh*t.. Explaining for exemple to a frenchman that universal healthcare if put in the hand of the gov is a bad thing.. is really ... really bold.
Open any basic introductory book on socialism. Look at the part about abolishing private property and state based economy. Try to understand what that means.
Look at the countries mentioned by @Uncle Van and if you still dares to claim that they are socialist you should take your meds.
Socialism is very broad mate, its not a simple system of abolition of private property.. it can also pass through a compromise with the current system, Van is right here:

Socialism is an umbrella term. Abolishing private property and having a state based economy is communism. All communist are socialist but not all socialist are communist. You can call it far left socialism.
I actually have to apologize because I absolutely despise communism and socialism and looking at your posts you seem way more moderate than I was giving credit for.
@Uncle Van When an ultra libertarian conservatist call you a "moderate"... Start to panic.
 
So basically you have a lot of problem to understand what is sh*t and what is not sh*t..
You stupid animal, I directly told what I think is shit and what isn't. Only a crazy retard like you would think that there's any issues.
Explaining for exemple to a frenchman that universal healthcare if put in the hand of the gov is a bad thing.. is really ... really bold.
As if the opinion of a unproductive waste would be of any value.
Socialism is very broad mate,
No. It has a specific definition and usage. Including a manual about how it would work and function. Capitalist and socialist economies are different. To a point that there was a need for a term about how to use leftist policies in a capitalist society. If you want to use a word, use the proper definition for it.
@Uncle Van When an ultra libertarian conservatist call you a "moderate"... Start to panic.
Learn to read. That was not what I said.
 
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