Spoiler General Kingdom Spoiler
- Thread starter Guan Yu
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- Tags cruzeiro > your fav team kaneki & mutin kouen > all ousen ousen>cruzeiro riboku>ousen shin > ouhon wingdom
CGR vs Shin wasn’t a real full fight
It was a clash and Shin killed CGR
like Shin vs Ryu Fu etc
No narrative build up, no back and forth during the arc etc etc
CGR wasn’t at all at the same level of Gyou Un martially
They don’t have the same portrayal strength wise, don’t have the same titles, the same feats, the same stats etc
Gyou Un is 94 and CGR 85 lol I can buy that Hara is drunk sometimes but not that drunk. And he never gave stats that didn’t represent the best asset of characters : Gyou Un best stat is Strength and CGR best stat is INT and not close at all with his STR.
If Hara wanted to make us believing CGR was a martial unit he would have done differently in his story
It was a clash and Shin killed CGR
like Shin vs Ryu Fu etc
No narrative build up, no back and forth during the arc etc etc
CGR wasn’t at all at the same level of Gyou Un martially
They don’t have the same portrayal strength wise, don’t have the same titles, the same feats, the same stats etc
Gyou Un is 94 and CGR 85 lol I can buy that Hara is drunk sometimes but not that drunk. And he never gave stats that didn’t represent the best asset of characters : Gyou Un best stat is Strength and CGR best stat is INT and not close at all with his STR.
If Hara wanted to make us believing CGR was a martial unit he would have done differently in his story
Can CGR do this? =>
Bruh, Mouten was a 1000 man commander. He did not have an army at that point. Stop exaggerating. Lol.
Also, Mougou sends Rinko flying in a 1v1 duel. Lol.
Ouhon and Shin also needed their combined units to punch through the Genpou Army and reach Genpou himself. That doesn't make Genpou a master 1v1 duellist now does it?
You are conflating Rinko's ability as a General with his ability as a duelist.
He overrates Keisha, Kochou was clearly an unsatisfying bum in his screen time unlike what Lee claims, he loved Kanki's backstory while I thought it was underwhelmingly boring, I keep underrating Shouheikan in tier lists according to him, he was fine with JKR's death while I wasn't and in case you haven't noticed, I have stated that Rinko would put up a better fight against CGR than what Lee is claiming.
Sometimes your posts sound like Ndule typed them lmfao
Shin vs Garyuu had much more buildup than Shin vs Gyou’Un. Shin and Garyuu had a full fledged battle before they fought where Shin’s specific goal was to slay him.
Shin vs Gyou’Un kind of just happened lol.
And Garyuu thrashed Shin around harder than Gyou’Un did, this is just a fact. Garyuu had Shin white eyed and spitting blood. Now Gyou’Un > Garyuu obviously but it’s just a fact that Garyuu beat Shin’s ass harder than Gyou’Un did.
It’s no exaggeration to say that Garyuu could have killed Rinko in one blow.
Shin vs Garyuu had much more buildup than Shin vs Gyou’Un. Shin and Garyuu had a full fledged battle before they fought where Shin’s specific goal was to slay him.
Shin vs Gyou’Un kind of just happened lol.
And Garyuu thrashed Shin around harder than Gyou’Un did, this is just a fact. Garyuu had Shin white eyed and spitting blood. Now Gyou’Un > Garyuu obviously but it’s just a fact that Garyuu beat Shin’s ass harder than Gyou’Un did.
It’s no exaggeration to say that Garyuu could have killed Rinko in one blow.
Agreed.
Undeniable. The Riboku that got worked by Shuma is not the one pre coalition or even Shukai where beheaded Makou. Riboku very clearly got retconned. Maybe Hara intended a Shin vs Riboku 1v1 down the line and just scrapped that.
Not sure. Rinko severely outskills here too. CGR isn't really a fighter either.
Undeniable. The Riboku that got worked by Shuma is not the one pre coalition or even Shukai where beheaded Makou. Riboku very clearly got retconned. Maybe Hara intended a Shin vs Riboku 1v1 down the line and just scrapped that.
Not sure. Rinko severely outskills here too. CGR isn't really a fighter either.
You are underestimating those little devils. Moubu explicitly told us that they were far beyond that of an average 1000 man commander =>
We don't need a statement. Rinko can one shot low tier generals as we saw in Sanyou when he killed Eibi. In the same chapter, Shin was clashing almost evenly with him. That means, these three were on the level of an average general already on Sanyou. Heck, Rinko already felt the air of a general from Shin after their first clash. Then, Shin, and I guess the other two as well, further evolved in this battle.
Mouten knows better than us:
Thats a fair point. But Genpou wasn't called Renpa's spear, not known for his extraordinary ability to break through enemy lines, not known for injuring Ouki. Rinko is the most dangerous heavenly king, even more than Kaishibou, who was given the most decisive tasks in every campaign. Just look at that man's portrayal =>
Mouten knows better than us:
Thats a fair point. But Genpou wasn't called Renpa's spear, not known for his extraordinary ability to break through enemy lines, not known for injuring Ouki. Rinko is the most dangerous heavenly king, even more than Kaishibou, who was given the most decisive tasks in every campaign. Just look at that man's portrayal =>
I don’t understand why you guys think Garyuu isn’t a fighter lol. Feel like I am repeating myself but all of the Ten Heroes were martial generals:
Weight:
We also saw Garyuu fighting at the front of his men multiple times, though I don’t have any panels off hand.
Garyuu was like Gokei and Karin, he preferred not to fight but he was still fully capable of fighting and thrashed Shin hard, briefly.
Weight:
We also saw Garyuu fighting at the front of his men multiple times, though I don’t have any panels off hand.
Garyuu was like Gokei and Karin, he preferred not to fight but he was still fully capable of fighting and thrashed Shin hard, briefly.
You are underestimating those little devils. Moubu explicitly told us that they were far beyond that of an average 1000 man commander =>
We don't need a statement. Rinko can one shot low tier generals as we saw in Sanyou when he killed Eibi. In the same chapter, Shin was clashing almost evenly with him. That means, these three were on the level of an average general already on Sanyou. Heck, Rinko already felt the air of a general from Shin after their first clash. Then, Shin, and I guess the other two as well, further evolved in this battle.
You said Mouten sacrificed his army. I pointed out that Mouten didn't even have an army to sacrifice. It doesn't matter whether Mouten's skills back then were on par with a General or even a Great General, he only had 1000 men to command at most. The sheer manpower disparity between his unit and Rinko's Army more than anything is why he needed the assistance of Shin and Ouhon for his plan. If Mouten was a General with an army of 20,000+ men then he would have just gone after Rinko with just his own force.
Never mind that it wasn't a sacrifice but a calculated gambit.
Mouten knows better than us:
Besides, at this point nobody in the Mougou Army thought the boss could fight. They were all shocked when the old man was hanging with Renpa in a duel and physically overpowering him.
Thats a fair point. But Genpou wasn't called Renpa's spear, not known for his extraordinary ability to break through enemy lines, not known for injuring Ouki. Rinko is the most dangerous heavenly king, even more than Kaishibou, who was given the most decisive tasks in every campaign. Just look at that man's portrayal =>
For example, Gokei is Gyou'un's superior as a General. He certainly isn't beating him in a 1v1 duel.
It's still a better feat then Chougaryuu never killing a single commander onscreen.
Prieviously you said that this quote proved 10 heroes are all generals focused on martial might aka it's about their style. And I'm telling you that all this proves is that all of them could fight while Rinshoujo could not. This quote does not prove 10 heroes were more of warrior generals then Rinko was.
Again, there's nothing to ignore, because this quote doesn't mean what you think it means.
General Ra Gen. He got killed during one of Rinko's rides. I'm assuming it's because Ra Gen was a target (Rinko ignored people who are not on his kill list like Shin).
Thats nice and all, but Gyou'un was the main attack force of Rinshoujo, he was Rinshoujo's Sword and the symbol of his army's martial might. It's obvious he would have some serious kills under his belt. Chougaryuu was not that, so using Gyou'un as an example brings nothing to the disscussion.
Even if thats the case, Rinko was also said to handle the most dangerous and important tasks out of all Heavenly Kings. There's no way this means his job is just killing off minor commanders.
He literally describes the pincers as "his methods" and when HSU is able to overcome this his first instinct is to run away. It's very clear that he is not the type of commander who actively seeks duels and fights warrior generals himself only when he is force to.
Shin that fought CGR not only was wounded, but he also had a hard time accustoming to a new heavy weapon. Going by that logic you can argue that Keisha or Batei are overpowered fighters, because they fought Shin after his encounter with Gaimou and actually did some damage.
Prieviously you said that this quote proved 10 heroes are all generals focused on martial might aka it's about their style. And I'm telling you that all this proves is that all of them could fight while Rinshoujo could not. This quote does not prove 10 heroes were more of warrior generals then Rinko was.
Again, there's nothing to ignore, because this quote doesn't mean what you think it means.
General Ra Gen. He got killed during one of Rinko's rides. I'm assuming it's because Ra Gen was a target (Rinko ignored people who are not on his kill list like Shin).
Rinko has only ever been specifically sent to kill 1,000 man commanders. Contrast this with Gyou’Un who Rinshoujou regularly used as a Great General slayer:
Even if thats the case, Rinko was also said to handle the most dangerous and important tasks out of all Heavenly Kings. There's no way this means his job is just killing off minor commanders.
He literally describes the pincers as "his methods" and when HSU is able to overcome this his first instinct is to run away. It's very clear that he is not the type of commander who actively seeks duels and fights warrior generals himself only when he is force to.
Shin that fought CGR not only was wounded, but he also had a hard time accustoming to a new heavy weapon. Going by that logic you can argue that Keisha or Batei are overpowered fighters, because they fought Shin after his encounter with Gaimou and actually did some damage.
What? Lmfao
This is like saying Naki is stronger than Karin since Karin has never killed anyone on the battlefield and Naki killed Ungen(?). Or like saying Bakukoshin is stronger than ManU because Bakukoshin killed a general and ManU has never been observed killing a general.
Lack of feats =/= “this character is stronger.” Lack of feats =/= “this character has better feats”. You can’t say someone has better feats than someone who is featless.
Which again Garyuu has far better feats than Rinko could ever dream of but we’ll get into that later:
It proves that they fulfilled a role which Rinko did not fill for Renpa, and therefore highly suggests they were stronger than Rinko in that regard.
Zenou was Kanki’s offensive power. Which highly implies Zenou is stronger martially than someone like Genpou who does not fill that same role. Even though there is no explicit proof of that. Lol
Appealing to lack of definitive proof just shows how little of an argument you actually have. “Chougaryuu has never explicitly been confirmed to be stronger than Rinko!” Well if that’s your metric, you can’t prove anyone is stronger than anyone else since those types of statements are quite rare in discussions like these lmfao.
The words “Houken is stronger than Bihei” have never actually been said by anyone in Kingdom. But do we really need them to be said? Lol
Oh yeah. Lol
This feat is functionally no different from Rinko negging Eibei. Mougou’s generals are literally just standard generals, Rinko being able to defeat them should have never been in question.
Chougaryuu is far from a standard general. He was confirmed at Heavenly King level before we learned anything else about him. In fact he was explicitly compared to Rinko lol.
“Chougaryuu isn’t a fighter, he’s just a shield” even though he was compared directly to Renpa’s most martial commanders. Lol
And Chougaryuu was Rinshoujou’s shield. This is the guy who protected Rinshoujou when other commanders tried to take his head. And given that Rinshoujou battled the Qin 6 regularly, it is not at all a stretch that Garyuu would have traded blows with them.
As a general, this could mean a lot of things.
As a fighter, his best martial hype is him landing a single blow on Ouki. So you’d better hope that means Garyuu wasn’t fighting the Qin 6 himself personally as Gyou’Un’s words imply lol.
This is Garyuu as a general:
A valorous general leading from the front of his army, weapon in hand.
Personally fighting on the front line killing soldiers himself.
I challenge anyone who thinks Garyuu is just a tactician to reread these panels. Garyuu is literally more likely to personally fight on the front lines than guys like Gokei or Kochou who themselves were quite strong.
…Batei and Keisha are great fighters. Not sure what point you’re trying to make there but both of them have serious martial skill to one degree or another.
Okay so this is what exploiting a lack of speed looks like:
Here Futei was trying to exploit Shin’s lack of speed with his heavy weapon.
This is not:
Garyuu was very much engaging Shin the same way Gyou’Un and Houken did, which had nothing to do with exploiting his lack of speed.
It’s funny how you guys are suddenly fixated on Shin’s wounds and lack of speed when Chougaryuu is concerned, but you ignore these things when Shin fought Gyou’Un and Houken. Lol
And I remind you, this is what Garyuu did to the same Shin that fought Houken and Gyou’Un:
I don’t know what to tell you if you think this guy is just a tactician. If you think Shin’s lack of speed suddenly disqualifies Garyuu as a warrior but doesn’t matter against Houken and Gyou’Un. Shin was more wounded when he fought Houken ffs but Houken isn’t seeing this stupid ass downplay.
This is like saying Naki is stronger than Karin since Karin has never killed anyone on the battlefield and Naki killed Ungen(?). Or like saying Bakukoshin is stronger than ManU because Bakukoshin killed a general and ManU has never been observed killing a general.
Lack of feats =/= “this character is stronger.” Lack of feats =/= “this character has better feats”. You can’t say someone has better feats than someone who is featless.
Which again Garyuu has far better feats than Rinko could ever dream of but we’ll get into that later:
It proves that they fulfilled a role which Rinko did not fill for Renpa, and therefore highly suggests they were stronger than Rinko in that regard.
Zenou was Kanki’s offensive power. Which highly implies Zenou is stronger martially than someone like Genpou who does not fill that same role. Even though there is no explicit proof of that. Lol
Appealing to lack of definitive proof just shows how little of an argument you actually have. “Chougaryuu has never explicitly been confirmed to be stronger than Rinko!” Well if that’s your metric, you can’t prove anyone is stronger than anyone else since those types of statements are quite rare in discussions like these lmfao.
The words “Houken is stronger than Bihei” have never actually been said by anyone in Kingdom. But do we really need them to be said? Lol
Oh yeah. Lol
This feat is functionally no different from Rinko negging Eibei. Mougou’s generals are literally just standard generals, Rinko being able to defeat them should have never been in question.
Chougaryuu is far from a standard general. He was confirmed at Heavenly King level before we learned anything else about him. In fact he was explicitly compared to Rinko lol.
“Chougaryuu isn’t a fighter, he’s just a shield” even though he was compared directly to Renpa’s most martial commanders. Lol
And Chougaryuu was Rinshoujou’s shield. This is the guy who protected Rinshoujou when other commanders tried to take his head. And given that Rinshoujou battled the Qin 6 regularly, it is not at all a stretch that Garyuu would have traded blows with them.
As a general, this could mean a lot of things.
As a fighter, his best martial hype is him landing a single blow on Ouki. So you’d better hope that means Garyuu wasn’t fighting the Qin 6 himself personally as Gyou’Un’s words imply lol.
This is Garyuu as a general:
A valorous general leading from the front of his army, weapon in hand.
Personally fighting on the front line killing soldiers himself.
I challenge anyone who thinks Garyuu is just a tactician to reread these panels. Garyuu is literally more likely to personally fight on the front lines than guys like Gokei or Kochou who themselves were quite strong.
…Batei and Keisha are great fighters. Not sure what point you’re trying to make there but both of them have serious martial skill to one degree or another.
Okay so this is what exploiting a lack of speed looks like:
Here Futei was trying to exploit Shin’s lack of speed with his heavy weapon.
This is not:
Garyuu was very much engaging Shin the same way Gyou’Un and Houken did, which had nothing to do with exploiting his lack of speed.
It’s funny how you guys are suddenly fixated on Shin’s wounds and lack of speed when Chougaryuu is concerned, but you ignore these things when Shin fought Gyou’Un and Houken. Lol
And I remind you, this is what Garyuu did to the same Shin that fought Houken and Gyou’Un:
I don’t know what to tell you if you think this guy is just a tactician. If you think Shin’s lack of speed suddenly disqualifies Garyuu as a warrior but doesn’t matter against Houken and Gyou’Un. Shin was more wounded when he fought Houken ffs but Houken isn’t seeing this stupid ass downplay.
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@Elder Lee Hung You also have Chougaryuu on the frontline personally leading an assault against the Gyoku Hou to allow Gyou'un to catch Ouhon.
What I don't get is, that only 2 of RSJ Generals make appearance in the arc. One is taken out by Ouhon and other by Shin. Folks questioning if they are same level
Let's even ignore that, Shin is like one of the strongest martial General in this Zhou compaign, having defeated Houken that had killed like 2 of Qin 6, including Ouki that Rinko is hyped to just injure his arm once.
For that same Shin, Hi Shin Unit is literally shown being worried that he might lose to CGR, and people are still dismissing his martial might, 🤦. How
Let's even ignore that, Shin is like one of the strongest martial General in this Zhou compaign, having defeated Houken that had killed like 2 of Qin 6, including Ouki that Rinko is hyped to just injure his arm once.
For that same Shin, Hi Shin Unit is literally shown being worried that he might lose to CGR, and people are still dismissing his martial might, 🤦. How
Karin at least has good strength stat so we know Hara is planing for her to be a beast. Chougaryuu's only real martial feat is dueling Shin for less then one chapter, landing few heavy blows and then dying.
Renpa did not need anyone shouldering the role of a fighter for him, because Renpa himself is a powerful warrior in contrast to Rinshoujo. That does not mean Rinko is not primarily a combat-oriented commander, because we both know he is.
I'm not argueing about Chougaryuu being HK tier commander, he definitely can match Rinko in war. In duel tho it's a whole other topic.
Yes and as I already proven he gained the title of Rnshoujo's Shield specifically because of his defensive tactics.
Yes, for like two panels, while rest of the times he sits in his HQ. Even guys like Denrimi and Ryuukoku were shown going to the front on some ocasions, that doesn't mean it's their regular way of operating.
And I'm not trying to prove Chougaryuu is just a tactician. All I'm saying is that being a tactician is his primeral role, but in addition he is a decent fighter. Where as Rinko is the opposite - he's primarily a fighter who additionally has a decent tactical skills.
Shin lost his conciousness against Gyou'un and literally died fighting Houken. Meanwhile Chougaryuu fought him for less then one chapter. Thats it. Chougaryuu's performance was nowhere near theirs and it definitely was not as impressive as Rinko who's defeat was nothing short of a miracle and nearly killed Shin if not for the intervention.
Renpa did not need anyone shouldering the role of a fighter for him, because Renpa himself is a powerful warrior in contrast to Rinshoujo. That does not mean Rinko is not primarily a combat-oriented commander, because we both know he is.
Chougaryuu is far from a standard general. He was confirmed at Heavenly King level before we learned anything else about him. In fact he was explicitly compared to Rinko lol.
“Chougaryuu isn’t a fighter, he’s just a shield” even though he was compared directly to Renpa’s most offensive commanders. Lol
“Chougaryuu isn’t a fighter, he’s just a shield” even though he was compared directly to Renpa’s most offensive commanders. Lol
And Chougaryuu was Rinshoujou’s shield. This is the guy who protected Rinshoujou when other commanders tried to take his head. And given that Rinshoujou battled the Qin 6 regularly, it is not at all a stretch that Garyuu would have traded blows with them.
As a general, this could mean a lot of things.
As a fighter, his best martial hype is him landing a single blow on Ouki. So you’d better hope that means Garyuu wasn’t fighting the Qin 6 himself personally as Gyou’Un’s words imply lol.
This is Garyuu as a general:
A valorous general leading from the front of his army, weapon in hand.
Personally fighting on the front line killing soldiers himself.
As a fighter, his best martial hype is him landing a single blow on Ouki. So you’d better hope that means Garyuu wasn’t fighting the Qin 6 himself personally as Gyou’Un’s words imply lol.
This is Garyuu as a general:
A valorous general leading from the front of his army, weapon in hand.
Personally fighting on the front line killing soldiers himself.
And I'm not trying to prove Chougaryuu is just a tactician. All I'm saying is that being a tactician is his primeral role, but in addition he is a decent fighter. Where as Rinko is the opposite - he's primarily a fighter who additionally has a decent tactical skills.
…Batei and Keisha are great fighters. Not sure what point you’re trying to make there but both of them have serious martial skill to one degree or another.
Okay so this is what exploiting a lack of speed looks like:
Here Futei was trying to exploit Shin’s lack of speed with his heavy weapon.
This is not:
Garyuu was very much engaging Shin the same way Gyou’Un and Houken did, which had nothing to do with exploiting his lack of speed.
It’s funny how you guys are suddenly fixated on Shin’s wounds and lack of speed when Chougaryuu is concerned, but you ignore these things when Shin fought Gyou’Un and Houken. Lol
And I remind you, this is what Garyuu did to the same Shin that fought Houken and Gyou’Un:
I don’t know what to tell you if you think this guy is just a tactician. If you think Shin’s lack of speed suddenly disqualifies Garyuu as a warrior but doesn’t matter against Houken and Gyou’Un. Shin was more wounded when he fought Houken ffs but Houken isn’t seeing this stupid ass downplay.
Okay so this is what exploiting a lack of speed looks like:
Here Futei was trying to exploit Shin’s lack of speed with his heavy weapon.
This is not:
Garyuu was very much engaging Shin the same way Gyou’Un and Houken did, which had nothing to do with exploiting his lack of speed.
It’s funny how you guys are suddenly fixated on Shin’s wounds and lack of speed when Chougaryuu is concerned, but you ignore these things when Shin fought Gyou’Un and Houken. Lol
And I remind you, this is what Garyuu did to the same Shin that fought Houken and Gyou’Un:
I don’t know what to tell you if you think this guy is just a tactician. If you think Shin’s lack of speed suddenly disqualifies Garyuu as a warrior but doesn’t matter against Houken and Gyou’Un. Shin was more wounded when he fought Houken ffs but Houken isn’t seeing this stupid ass downplay.
Rinko vs Chougaryuu is the new Bananji vs Earl Shi.
Banana vs Earl Shi at least are two great fighters and portrayed as such
Here it’s just underestimation of past opponents thinking they grew weaker because the story progressed
Rinko and Earl Shi have One piece pre time skip syndrome where everyone underestimating them while forgetting the portrayal