Speculations Something is rotten in the state of Liberation

What was Joyboy trying to liberate?

  • Sea God

  • Something else


Results are only viewable after voting.

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#1
Ancient Kingdom good, the World Government bad, right?

According to Vegapunk, things arent as clear-cut as believed.
And there is a lot of evidence suggesting that things are off in this century-long war...

First of all, let's point out the fact that the supposed good guys from the Ancient Kingdom and their leading figure, the supposedly good guy called Joyboy are the ones who created and used the world-destroying weapons that we know today as Ancient Weapons. It is them who sank the world and wiped out all the civilizations, not the World Government.

Based on that alone, are the Ancient Kingdom and Joyboy the good guys? Absolutely not.
One might say, it wasn't them, it was the WG who did that but we can debunk that easily by pointing out that WG is not able to use the Ancient Weapons, they don't have the technology to create the fuel those weapons require. Imu owns Uranus for who knows how long and they only were able to use it once after stealing the fuel from Vegapunk who just managed to recreate something that resembles the fuel.

Another pro-AK argument could be that other weapons don't need fuel and WG took those instead.
I would argue that I can counter that too. First off, other weapons need some kind of fuel too and second, they don't have the same world-ending effect that Uranus does.
Uranus is the weapon that represents the sky and shoots its projectile from the Sky downwards, creating a hole in the planet that results in sea level rising by 1 meter.

The other two weapons don't work the same way. While we have to assume that Pluton sails on the sea or at least travels on Land, it shoots its projectiles horizontally and thus not drilling a hole downwards into the planet, we don't have to assume how the weapon that represents the sea works, not really. It has been foreshadowed through Fishmen karate, whether it is the couple of water drops or the well known water spear from Jinbe, imagine that but on a whole another level.

I would argue that we even saw Poseidon firing a couple of times in the show but we weren't aware of it - the Knock Up Stream!
The same thing happens when Uranus is activated. Dark clouds gather but instead of 16 shots from the sky, we have one big water spear from the Sea upwards that tears islands apart.

The point here is that the sinking of the world by 200 meters was done through 200 shots of Uranus!
Aside from Lulusia, the only other known target of Uranus is the hole beneath Enies Lobby.

The 1st question I have here is - what were those 200 targets??!
The 2nd question is - how did the 20 Kings oppose such weapons of mass destruction to begin with?!
The 3rd question is - Why did a D, namely Nefertari Lily oppose the Ancient Kingdom and Joyboy?

We have to point out a fact that the World Government wasn't even a thing. It formed in order to stop whatever the Ancient Kingdom and Joyboy were doing. So, what were they doing that leaders of 20 nations had to band together to stop them? They had too many sex orgies?!


Clearly, the actions of the faction that used 3 world-destroying weapons were wrong in the eyes of the 20 Kings.
A whole century they opposed their ideals until they finally managed to defeat them.
The figure that lead the Ancient Kingdom was the Warrior of Liberation.

As we see it through Luffy, he is obsessed with liberating this, liberating that, liberating everything... Was Joyboy the same?
Of course he was. So he wanted to liberate something and the 20 Kings thought liberating that wasn't a good idea.
What was he trying to liberate is the most important question here.

Whatever happened after the war and Imu doing his thing is another story but during the Void Century this wasn't an Imu-problem.
The Joyboy was a problem in the eyes of 20 people.
Also, why does a shot of Uranus result in a sea level increase? Is there more water to be had inside the planet so it is released every time a hole is drilled?

Too many questions, too few answers...
 
B

Borasey79

#2
We already knew that the AK was questionable and not necessarily "good" from Rayleigh's words on Sabaody.
IMO, the AK reached a level comparable to the current WG, where they maintained a worldwide peace and overall people thrived under their governance, but still bad apples existed in their midst, using what socio-economical status they had for their own means, manhunting rituals to boot. There may have been discontent and local riots here and there, but nothing major.

Why JoyBoy fucked the status quo so much is because he took to the seas in search of adventure/fun no matter what. That questioned any authority, not just the AK rulers, but also regional daimyo-like figures. JoyBoy wanted to go wherever the fuck he wanted, chat people up, shared food and booze with them. And if the people he met started airing issues about this gov dog or that, fuck it, JoyBoy was ready to help the randos by starting fights with the aforementioned gov dogs.

This would eventually fuel something greater than a single riot. This could've laid the basis for a worldwise insurrection. So, JoyBoy's brand of freedom was termed dangerous, even illegal - thus creating the label of "pirate".

Things may have been even more nuanced if JoyBoy himself was part of the AK royal family. A prince or princeling going around and telling people that if you don't like those governing you, you should overthrow them, or worse, you should leave your home (thus their jurisdiction) and sail for someplace else, would be catastrophic even on the legitimization of power front alone.

And if JoyBoy did succeed in setting up a Libertalia-like pirate state, using some continent-pulling new friend of his to bring together shards of land from the corners of the world disagreeing with the AK, then the AK found itself all of a sudden with a potential rival political entity within its own borders. Using the Ancient Weapon to re-shape this newly formed country may have been necessary.
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#3
We already knew that the AK was questionable and not necessarily "good" from Rayleigh's words on Sabaody.
IMO, the AK reached a level comparable to the current WG, where they maintained a worldwide peace and overall people thrived under their governance, but still bad apples existed in their midst, using what socio-economical status they had for their own means, manhunting rituals to boot. There may have been discontent and local riots here and there, but nothing major.

Why JoyBoy fucked the status quo so much is because he took to the seas in search of adventure/fun no matter what. That questioned any authority, not just the AK rulers, but also regional daimyo-like figures. JoyBoy wanted to go wherever the fuck he wanted, chat people up, shared food and booze with them. And if the people he met started airing issues about this gov dog or that, fuck it, JoyBoy was ready to help the randos by starting fights with the aforementioned gov dogs.

This would eventually fuel something greater than a single riot. This could've laid the basis for a worldwise insurrection. So, JoyBoy's brand of freedom was termed dangerous, even illegal - thus creating the label of "pirate".

Things may have been even more nuanced if JoyBoy himself was part of the AK royal family. A prince or princeling going around and telling people that if you don't like those governing you, you should overthrow them, or worse, you should leave your home (thus their jurisdiction) and sail for someplace else, would be catastrophic even on the legitimization of power front alone.

And if JoyBoy did succeed in setting up a Libertalia-like pirate state, using some continent-pulling new friend of his to bring together shards of land from the corners of the world disagreeing with the AK, then the AK found itself all of a sudden with a potential rival political entity within its own borders. Using the Ancient Weapon to re-shape this newly formed country may have been necessary.
The problem is JoyBoy and Ancient Kingdom were on the same side.
What you described cannot happen due to that.
There was no bad WG that Joyboy opposed.
WG formed to oppose Joyboy and his Ancient Kingdom.
 
#4
The problem is not with Joyboy and his allies, but the forefather of the evil D. family line, the man whom Teach and Xebec are modeled after
In a sense, you can say this man was the origin of evil and the number one disturber of peace

Teach will be one of the final players alongside Luffy and Imu, Imu was never meant to be more important than Teach, the same way he is not more relevant than Joyboy.
 

Reborn

Throughout Heaven & Earth,I alone am d Honored One
#5
We already knew that the AK was questionable and not necessarily "good" from Rayleigh's words on Sabaody.
IMO, the AK reached a level comparable to the current WG, where they maintained a worldwide peace and overall people thrived under their governance, but still bad apples existed in their midst, using what socio-economical status they had for their own means, manhunting rituals to boot. There may have been discontent and local riots here and there, but nothing major.

Why JoyBoy fucked the status quo so much is because he took to the seas in search of adventure/fun no matter what. That questioned any authority, not just the AK rulers, but also regional daimyo-like figures. JoyBoy wanted to go wherever the fuck he wanted, chat people up, shared food and booze with them. And if the people he met started airing issues about this gov dog or that, fuck it, JoyBoy was ready to help the randos by starting fights with the aforementioned gov dogs.

This would eventually fuel something greater than a single riot. This could've laid the basis for a worldwise insurrection. So, JoyBoy's brand of freedom was termed dangerous, even illegal - thus creating the label of "pirate".

Things may have been even more nuanced if JoyBoy himself was part of the AK royal family. A prince or princeling going around and telling people that if you don't like those governing you, you should overthrow them, or worse, you should leave your home (thus their jurisdiction) and sail for someplace else, would be catastrophic even on the legitimization of power front alone.

And if JoyBoy did succeed in setting up a Libertalia-like pirate state, using some continent-pulling new friend of his to bring together shards of land from the corners of the world disagreeing with the AK, then the AK found itself all of a sudden with a potential rival political entity within its own borders. Using the Ancient Weapon to re-shape this newly formed country may have been necessary.
Joyboy is good.

VP doesn't know much so that's why he said he isn't sure who's right or wrong.


Roger literally started Golden age of pirates after learning true history. Rayleigh saved Luffy twice. If they weren't sure about Joyboy and WG then they wouldn't have done so.




Problem is people often overlooks one key element - Blackbeard ancestor.

BB is marked along with Luffy, Poseidon, Lily.

Luffy is Joyboy
Poseidon is AW
Lily is a D who betrayed WG and spread the PGs.

Definitely BB ancestor has done something to piss of both Joyboy (to be Luffy's enemy) to WG (to be marked by IMU)


He's the key here which ties both joyboy and WG.
Post automatically merged:

Joyboy is good.

VP doesn't know much so that's why he said he isn't sure who's right or wrong.


Roger literally started Golden age of pirates after learning true history. Rayleigh saved Luffy twice. If they weren't sure about Joyboy and WG then they wouldn't have done so.




Problem is people often overlooks one key element - Blackbeard ancestor.

BB is marked along with Luffy, Poseidon, Lily.

Luffy is Joyboy
Poseidon is AW
Lily is a D who betrayed WG and spread the PGs.

Definitely BB ancestor has done something to piss of both Joyboy (to be Luffy's enemy) and WG (to be marked by IMU)


He's the key here which ties both joyboy and WG.
Wanted to quote @nik87
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#6
Joyboy is good.

VP doesn't know much so that's why he said he isn't sure who's right or wrong.


Roger literally started Golden age of pirates after learning true history. Rayleigh saved Luffy twice. If they weren't sure about Joyboy and WG then they wouldn't have done so.




Problem is people often overlooks one key element - Blackbeard ancestor.

BB is marked along with Luffy, Poseidon, Lily.

Luffy is Joyboy
Poseidon is AW
Lily is a D who betrayed WG and spread the PGs.

Definitely BB ancestor has done something to piss of both Joyboy (to be Luffy's enemy) to WG (to be marked by IMU)


He's the key here which ties both joyboy and WG.
How do you explain the good Joyboy and his Ancient Kingdom creating and sinking the world with world-destroying weapons?
 

Reborn

Throughout Heaven & Earth,I alone am d Honored One
#8
How do you explain the good Joyboy and his Ancient Kingdom creating and sinking the world with world-destroying weapons?
War started 900 years ago and lasted for 100 years.


VP said sea level increased by 200 mtrs during those 100 years and not prior to it.


This implies two things

1) Ancient Kingdom and WG existed even before the void century war so we can infer Ancient kingdom had those weapons before the void century.

2)no sea level rise prior to those 100 years.

Which means someone did use those weapons but it was during the war.


Joyboy wasn't that person. Nika/joyboy is literally seen as a hero to those who still knows about him.


There are two possibilities

1) Ancient Kingdom had another D - Evil D that used the weapons (parallel to Blackbeard) and this gave opportunity to WG to manipulate others against Ancient Kingdom


Or

2), Somehow WG got hands over the ancient kingdom especially Uranus and destroyed the islands and framed the Ancient kingdom for it or used it against the WG.

This is evident from the present scenario - WG knows Uranus cause sea level rise but still resorted to cleansing (which means they did something similar in the past)

Or it's both
 
H

Herrera95

#9
Oda is cornering himself with his unexplained void century history.

How does an advanced technology with 3 ancient weapons capa le of destroying a fucking island aka the biggest powers of the series so far and with the help of the legend with the most broken DF (after Kizaru) loses a fucking war to a bunch of ugly and weak creatures aka Tenryuubito?

That can only make sense IF the zoro like guy of the time was either one of the kings or was at their side. And the guy was maybe even stronger than Ryuuma that already took the other way and went against the WG.
 
#11
Oda is cornering himself with his unexplained void century history.

How does an advanced technology with 3 ancient weapons capa le of destroying a fucking island aka the biggest powers of the series so far and with the help of the legend with the most broken DF (after Kizaru) loses a fucking war to a bunch of ugly and weak creatures aka Tenryuubito?

That can only make sense IF the zoro like guy of the time was either one of the kings or was at their side. And the guy was maybe even stronger than Ryuuma that already took the other way and went against the WG.
Not all CD are like that, look at ripped doffy
 
#12
To be fair Nik has a point.

The ambiguity of who is in the right and which ideals was technically morally right.

I do think Oda will in his own way try to make the AK the good guys from the moral perspective but there is definitely questions based on Rayleigh's comments and Vegapunk's comments.

Ultimately it falls down however to the idea of if the 20 kings were so righteous why hide the history? Why is the fruit of the seed which the 20 kings from the VC that of slavery and CD.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out but I like the idea of Joyboy being betrayed by the AK and the 20 Kings were the morally bad ones and just wiped everyone out.
 

Reborn

Throughout Heaven & Earth,I alone am d Honored One
#13
To be fair Nik has a point.

The ambiguity of who is in the right and which ideals was technically morally right.

I do think Oda will in his own way try to make the AK the good guys from the moral perspective but there is definitely questions based on Rayleigh's comments and Vegapunk's comments.

Ultimately it falls down however to the idea of if the 20 kings were so righteous why hide the history? Why is the fruit of the seed which the 20 kings from the VC that of slavery and CD.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out but I like the idea of Joyboy being betrayed by the AK and the 20 Kings were the morally bad ones and just wiped everyone out.
Point here is Joyboy wasn't bad. We know from damn fact that he was a pirate and Roger did usher a pirate era


But AK under the rule of Evil D could be.
 
#15
To be fair Nik has a point.

The ambiguity of who is in the right and which ideals was technically morally right.

I do think Oda will in his own way try to make the AK the good guys from the moral perspective but there is definitely questions based on Rayleigh's comments and Vegapunk's comments.

Ultimately it falls down however to the idea of if the 20 kings were so righteous why hide the history? Why is the fruit of the seed which the 20 kings from the VC that of slavery and CD.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out but I like the idea of Joyboy being betrayed by the AK and the 20 Kings were the morally bad ones and just wiped everyone out.
The betrayal theory is a solid one

Especially when Joyboy’s old friends (Zunesha and the Iron Giant) both keep saying “sorry” to him

Somehow something they did resulted in his defeat but we don’t know what
 
#16
Doflamingo Speech
Arabasta Conflict
Skypiea Conflict
Fisher Tiger & Otohime choosing different Paths
Rayleigh's Comment on Two Different Opinions
Vegapunk saying He doesn't know who's Good & who's Bad
Luffy telling Jinbe He is not a Hero
Shanks helping Gorosei
WG building Tequila Wolf which can Help against the Sinking
Nefertari Family siding with WG always (Their only Problem was with Land of Mary Geoise, not WG)
Oda showing us countless times how Wealth, Fame & Power Corrupts People
We also saw how many Nobles & Pirates & even Normal People can be as Trash as CDs, so it's a Humans Thing, not WG Thing
Spandam tricked Gorosei to allow him to seek Pluton Blueprints, They clearly stated that They only did it so that it doesn't fall into Pirate Hands
Mjosgard & Doffy's Family showed us that CDs are just Victims of their Environment
It was revealed that some CDs don't even know about Void Century
Aside from Opposing Poneglyph Study, WG never done anything that We haven't seen other Royalty do
They don't mind D. People working for them

There is Evil in WG, but same goes for Pirates, and many Other Groups
They simply need Guidance & Someone to Inspire them & New Management

Joy Boy wasn't necessarily Good & He might not even be Luffy
It's possibly Blackbeard instead
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#20
War started 900 years ago and lasted for 100 years.


VP said sea level increased by 200 mtrs during those 100 years and not prior to it.


This implies two things

1) Ancient Kingdom and WG existed even before the void century war so we can infer Ancient kingdom had those weapons before the void century.

2)no sea level rise prior to those 100 years.

Which means someone did use those weapons but it was during the war.


Joyboy wasn't that person. Nika/joyboy is literally seen as a hero to those who still knows about him.


There are two possibilities

1) Ancient Kingdom had another D - Evil D that used the weapons (parallel to Blackbeard) and this gave opportunity to WG to manipulate others against Ancient Kingdom


Or

2), Somehow WG got hands over the ancient kingdom especially Uranus and destroyed the islands and framed the Ancient kingdom for it or used it against the WG.

This is evident from the present scenario - WG knows Uranus cause sea level rise but still resorted to cleansing (which means they did something similar in the past)

Or it's both
WG didn't exist before Void Century. It became a thing to combat Joyboy and the Ancient Kingdom because whatever that faction was doing, 20 kings considered it wrong.
If the weapons existed before VC, I disagree with the implication you mentioned that no sea rising was a thing, unless the weapons were never used...

Thing is, we know WG cannot use those weapons, they depend on Vegapunk even now to use it just once and they cannot anymore...
Unless the history repeats itself and they had a AK scientist work with them and create the fuel to be used 200 times...
Other than that, it was Joyboy's faction who used those weapons. On the other hand, how was AK destroyed if not by those very same weapons?

I am not buying an evil D, Joyboy wouldn't be on that side if he was a good guy. Maybe there was some manipulation thanks to Mr. 2's devil fruit a la Alabasta/Wano but we cant bet on that for now...
 
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