General & Others Can We Wait A Few Chapters Before Seriously Comparing Kaido And Kizaru

[Brush D. Teeth]

The Stars Gun was indeed powerful, to the point of causing brain damage to Kizaru, I don't dispute that.

"100%HP", man, Saturn + Kizaru = Humiliated.
And do you think a Kizaru could do better against Luffy before food?
Did you see how the first round of the restricted Luffy vs Kizaru ended?

Kizaru ended up on the ground shaking without being able to get up according to him. LOL

I don't think Kizaru is stronger, but he played his cards better. Had there been no interference, he'd have been the first one on his feet.
And yes, it was probably a 100% HP recovery. Alabasta Luffy could grow back his whole abdomen by having dinner. His Egghead injuries were nothing in comparison.

The problem is with the way the fight was portrayed Luffy probably could have landed Star Gun off the jump, but he just... Didn't.

Woulda... coulda... didn't.

 

[The DevilMaster]

Yeah but Oda portrays that he isn't injured because Kizaru says he isn't

You need to make up your mind, Kizaru wasn't injured yet he spits blood, isn't the fact that someone spits blood concrete proof that they were injured?
It's obvious that Blud's internal organs were crushed, the fact that he's still alive and awake is almost insane 😭, so they are deep wounds.
However I find it funny how the argument revolves around Kizaru not suffering serious damage, and no argument to justify how much he was slaughtered by Luffy.

 

[BlackLegFring]

The problem is with the way the fight was portrayed Luffy probably could have landed Star Gun off the jump, but he just... Didn't.

That’s pointless though. Luffy could also jump right to Baljrung Gun against Kaido and end him, but no one jumps to their best moves right out the bat.

Luffy trying to go all out right away would just make Kizaru more wary. He can travel a dozen miles away in a second which would waste the effort.

On another note, one could just say that he pulls out his sword, Ama no Murakumo and stabs Luffy before he powers up from base and you’re back to square one.

 

[The DevilMaster]

Kizaru needed a couple minutes after WSG, but then again he pushed Gear5 to it absolute limits, and even WSG only landed after they disengaged combat
Kaido’s mosquito attacks were being laughed off by Gear5 who was simply goofing around, even grabbed hold of Kaido’s body refusing to let go with Kaido unable to get his hand off LMAO
He was also in turn getting smacked constantly, by Gear5 base Luffy gear4 and Yamato
Against Kizaru Snakeman was completely trashed, that’s the level of fighter he is

Minimize the powerful attacks from Kaidou that were making Gear 5 vomit tons of blood as much as you want; it still won’t justify Kizaru’s inability to do the same as Kaidou, which is: give a full-power beating to Gear 5 without any restrictions. Even if I agreed with you that Kaidou’s blows did nothing, Kaidou at least was consistently hitting Gear 5 without any problem, whereas Kizaru couldn’t even manage that.

I also don’t know where you’re trying to go with such a claim because Kizaru’s attacks did much less to Gear 5 than Kaidou’s attacks. After all, the only thing Kizaru did to Gear 5 was give a paper-cut on the cheek, right?

Spoiler: Kizaru damege

I only needed two photos to show who did the most, and they're not even all of Kaidou's attacks on Gear 5.

Spoiler: Kaidou damege

Kizaru needed a couple minutes after WSG, but then again he pushed Gear5 to it absolute limits, and even WSG only landed after they disengaged combat

And do you think that's cool? That the guy, in the first serious blow he receives, falls to the ground shaking while he has to be saved by the Gear 5 time limit?
Last time I checked, the opposite happened in the fight against Kaidou, Oda had to write Kaidou literally reaching his limit of resistance at the moment Kaidou takes Luffy out of gear 5 after an attack (dominating him again, something Kizaru didn't do).

Against Kizaru Snakeman was completely trashed, that’s the level of fighter he is

Bro, Snakeman without advanced Haki? We're talking about a version that even Katakuri could surpass.
And you know what's worse? That Snakeman ate Kizaru's maximum kick even though the kick had its result influenced by external factors such as barriers and even so that shit was rubbish, Luffy returned later complaining about the damage from the barriers and not the kick.
Are you happy with that? With the fact that Snakeman without advanced Haki eats kizaru kicks that are helped by external factors?

He was also in turn getting smacked constantly, by Gear5 base Luffy gear4 and Yamato

And he beat up the guy who beat up Kizaru, see the irony.
Kaidou destroyed all of Luffy's forms one after another:

Base.
G2/G3
Snakeman
Boundman
Gear 5

All without restriction on Luffy's part.
Kizaru however, lands a kick that does nothing to Snakeman = Destroy him.

Look, this is how it deals damage and Kaidou didn't even need to receive help from 2 barriers.

Spoiler: 1

Kaido’s mosquito attacks were being laughed off by Gear5

In fact, Kaidou's monstrous attacks were ridiculing Gear 5, while the same Gear 5 literally ate Kizaru's attacks.

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

Minimize as much as you want Kaidou's powerful attacks that were making Gear 5 vomit tons of blood, this still won't justify the lack of Kizaru being unable to do the same as Kaidou, which is: Give Gear 5 a full power beating without any restriction.

And do you think that's cool? That the guy, in the first serious blow he receives, falls to the ground shaking while he has to be saved by the Gear 5 time limit?
Last time I checked, the opposite happened in the fight against Kaidou, Oda had to write Kaidou literally reaching his limit of resistance at the moment Kaidou takes Luffy out of gear 5 after an attack (dominating him again, something Kizaru didn't do).

Bro, Snakeman without advanced Haki? We're talking about a version that even Katakuri could surpass.
And you know what's worse? That Snakeman ate Kizaru's maximum kick even though the kick had its result influenced by external factors such as barriers and even so that shit was rubbish.

It makes no sense for Luffy not to use ACoC for the whole of Egghead. People even say he didn't use it on the gorosei when he was trying really hard to hurt them. It's likely a drawing inconsistency by Oda.

 

[The DevilMaster]

It makes no sense for Luffy not to use ACoC for the whole of Egghead. People even say he didn't use it on the gorosei when he was trying really hard to hurt them. It's likely a drawing inconsistency by Oda.

Why in one scene does Kizaru spit blood when caught by the giant Luffy and in the other he doesn't spit blood? The most obvious answer is that in the first scene Luffy was not serious, while in the second the context demanded more seriousness from him.
It's not an inconsistency, it's just Luffy restricting himself, if there's one instance in which it can be said that Luffy used Acoc it was during Stars Gun and even that is questionable, and even so the result against Kizaru was satisfactory, since the dude just packed his bags

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

Why in one scene does Kizaru spit blood when caught by the giant Luffy and in the other he doesn't spit blood? The most obvious answer is that in the first scene Luffy was not serious, while in the second the context demanded more seriousness from him.

Maybe, but he was also full health in one instance and had just received a punch to the brain in the other.

 

[The DevilMaster]

Maybe, but he was also full health in one instance and had just received a punch to the brain in the other.

How should brain damage influence the outcome of a squeeze?

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

How should brain damage influence the outcome of a squeeze?

I think brain damage can easily cause bleeding from the mouth, even if here it was probably because Goofy was pissed. Anyway, Kizaru did really well in the first half.

 

[Germinator]

isn't the fact that someone spits blood concrete proof that they were injured?

Let's just cut to the chase, because on one end I can call it mere damage, you an injury

It was emotional injuries, not physical ones, per Kizarus words, that kept him on the boat and why he didn't continue to fight

(Also the fact that he completed his mission of killing Vegapunk and didn't need to continue)

 

[The DevilMaster]

I think brain damage can easily cause bleeding from the mouth, even if here it was probably because Goofy was pissed. Anyway, Kizaru did really well in the first half.

I don’t think Kizaru did well in the first round, here are my opinions:

• Luffy fought restricted and without using Acoc, and we can visibly see this against Snakeman. If you want, you can compare it with the Snakeman who fought against Kaidou; there were lightning bolts everywhere.
• Kizaru’s kick on Snakeman was fully withstood by Luffy, and the worst part is that Kizaru's kick received external help, and even so, the result wasn’t satisfactory. After all, Luffy returned immediately. Now, imagine that kick in a scenario where there were no barriers to help its effectiveness? It would have been completely overpowered by Luffy.
• Luffy could easily catch Kizaru with his own hands in his giant form, which consequently left Kizaru completely at Luffy’s mercy since Kizaru was completely immobilized at that moment. Oda had to restrict Luffy’s brain, just like he restricted Acoc in Snakeman and Acoc in Gear 5. Luffy made the smart decision to throw Kizaru away instead of simply attacking him with the other hand. However, this doesn’t take away the credit from Luffy for easily immobilizing Kizaru by grabbing him as if he were a toy.
• Kizaru used the holographic clones that at most caused a paper-cut on Luffy’s cheek, and then Luffy dealt with all the holograms. Compare this cut Luffy received with the multiple cuts he received from Kaidou—the difference is enormous. The cuts caused by Kaidou actually made Luffy vomit blood.
• After that, Luffy and Kizaru are seen in close-quarters combat (CQC), but it’s still noticeable that Luffy is still holding back and not using Acoc, and Kizaru admits that if he continues to face him, he won’t be able to complete his mission. Kizaru admits that a version of Gear 5 without Acoc can stop him completely.
• Finally, Luffy speeds up and keeps up with Kizaru, eats his attack (literally), and lands a direct hit on Kizaru that paralyzes him. This happens only when a member of Luffy’s crew shouts at him and asks him to do something. And the result? Luffy using (perhaps) the only instance of Adcoc during the arc, and Kizaru being completely destroyed, paralyzed on the ground, trembling, and openly admitting his inability to return immediately after the attack. And this was the first hit he received on screen.

Luffy, all nerfed and with all these PIS issues, still takes the first round completely.

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

I don’t think Kizaru did well in the first round, here are my opinions:

• Luffy fought restricted and without using Acoc, and we can visibly see this against Snakeman. If you want, you can compare it with the Snakeman who fought against Kaidou; there were lightning bolts everywhere.
• Kizaru’s kick on Snakeman was fully withstood by Luffy, and the worst part is that Kizaru's kick received external help, and even so, the result wasn’t satisfactory. After all, Luffy returned immediately. Now, imagine that kick in a scenario where there were no barriers to help its effectiveness? It would have been completely overpowered by Luffy.
• Luffy could easily catch Kizaru with his own hands in his giant form, which consequently left Kizaru completely at Luffy’s mercy since Kizaru was completely immobilized at that moment. Oda had to restrict Luffy’s brain, just like he restricted Acoc in Snakeman and Acoc in Gear 5. Luffy made the smart decision to throw Kizaru away instead of simply attacking him with the other hand. However, this doesn’t take away the credit from Luffy for easily immobilizing Kizaru by grabbing him as if he were a toy.
• Kizaru used the holographic clones that at most caused a paper-cut on Luffy’s cheek, and then Luffy dealt with all the holograms. Compare this cut Luffy received with the multiple cuts he received from Kaidou—the difference is enormous. The cuts caused by Kaidou actually made Luffy vomit blood.
• After that, Luffy and Kizaru are seen in close-quarters combat (CQC), but it’s still noticeable that Luffy is still holding back and not using Acoc, and Kizaru admits that if he continues to face him, he won’t be able to complete his mission. Kizaru admits that a version of Gear 5 without Acoc can stop him completely.
• Finally, Luffy speeds up and keeps up with Kizaru, eats his attack (literally), and lands a direct hit on Kizaru that paralyzes him. This happens only when a member of Luffy’s crew shouts at him and asks him to do something. And the result? Luffy using (perhaps) the only instance of Adcoc during the arc, and Kizaru being completely destroyed, paralyzed on the ground, trembling, and openly admitting his inability to return immediately after the attack. And this was the first hit he received on screen.

Luffy, all nerfed and with all these PIS issues, still takes the first round completely.

It was wise of Kizaru to play tag because he was physically weaker and exhausting Luffy was his best bet, which he more or less did. Luffy trying to drown people is no different from Kizaru using the enviroment (barrier) to his arvantage.
Thinking that WSG was the only usage of ACoC doesn't make any sense, especially against the gorosei. Oda is not consistent and the most logical conclusion is that he's been using it all along.

 

[The DevilMaster]

Let's just cut to the chase, because on one end I can call it mere damage, you an injury

It was emotional injuries, not physical ones, per Kizarus words, that kept him on the boat and why he didn't continue to fight

(Also the fact that he completed his mission of killing Vegapunk and didn't need to continue)

No, man, there’s no way you can call that mere damage, because first of all, I don’t think “mere damage” would be enough to make someone tremble. Secondly, why would mere damage be enough to leave me unable to get up for a while?

You see? Mere damage is something I can ignore and keep going, not stay on the damn ground trembling and unable to get up for X amount of time because of it. That’s kind of contradictory, don’t you think?

The fact that Kizaru completed his mission isn’t a good reason for him to stay on that ship while breathing heavily. After all, he still had other purposes, like killing Bonney and Kuma. He’s so bad that he needed Saturn’s help to complete his mission, and he only managed to land the final blow on Vegapunk when Luffy passed the responsibility of protecting Vegapunk to Sanji, a guy who had literally heard from Vegapunk that he wanted to be left to die. “I’m killing a man who wants to be killed”—how funny.

Post automatically merged: Aug 17, 2024

It was wise of Kizaru to play tag because he was physically weaker and exhausting Luffy was his best bet, which he more or less did. Luffy trying to drown people is no different from Kizaru using the enviroment (barrier) to his arvantage.
Thinking that WSG was the only usage of ACoC doesn't make any sense, especially against the gorosei. Oda is not consistent and the most logical conclusion is that he's been using it all along.

Look, the fact that Kizaru lasted until Luffy’s Gear 5 reached its time limit is not an argument in Kizaru’s favor because Kizaru only achieved this because Oda filled Luffy with PIS (Plot-Induced Stupidity), and even so, Luffy was superior to him. If Luffy had started using Acoc as soon as he transformed into Gear 5 and approached it with a serious mindset, what would Kizaru do? Pray, After all, you saw how Luffy only needed a few seconds to take down Kizaru when he decided to get a bit serious, right?


Throughout this confrontation, you can see several panels of Luffy dominating Kizaru on various occasions and zero panels of Kizaru doing the same, which clearly shows that restricted Gear 5 > Kizaru.

Avoiding Gear 5 (even restricted) is indeed the smartest decision Kizaru could make, but consider this: what will Kizaru do against Kaidou, a guy who, unlike Kizaru what never managed to dominate restricted Gear 5 even once, but kaidou beat Gear 5 repeatedly on panel? Running away won’t help because Kaidou doesn’t have a time limit; if there’s one thing he has, it’s the highest endurance in the verse.

 

[Germinator]

No, man, there’s no way you can call that mere damage, because first of all, I don’t think “mere damage” would be enough to make someone tremble. Secondly, why would mere damage be enough to leave me unable to get up for a while

Mere damage or injury, Kizaru described emotional harm, not physical harm

 

[The DevilMaster]

Mere damage or injury, Kizaru described emotional harm, not physical harm

Man, it’s getting funny. The guy gets hit in the head, falls to the ground trembling, tells Saturn that he won’t be able to get up for a while because of the attack, and your conclusion is that he wasn’t physically harmed at all?

You know, even if you keep denying it to yourself, the conclusion—worst-case scenario—is that YONKOU Luffy defeated/humiliated Kizaru, causing him mental damage. The mental damage caused by Gear 5 is devastating.

injury

Physical or mental?

 

[Germinator]

and your conclusion is that he wasn’t physically harmed at all?

He was physically harmed, but not enough to keep him down.

What kept him down was emotional not physical

All this means is that Kizaru could have continued fighting but was emotionally constrained as is obvious to any reader without a bias

Post automatically merged: Aug 17, 2024

Man, it’s getting funny. The guy gets hit in the head, falls to the ground trembling, tells Saturn that he won’t be able to get up for a while because of the attack, and your conclusion is that he wasn’t physically harmed at all?

You know, even if you keep denying it to yourself, the conclusion—worst-case scenario—is that YONKOU Luffy defeated/humiliated Kizaru, causing him mental damage. The mental damage caused by Gear 5 is devastating.

Physical or mental?

Mental wound as per Kizarus words

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

That’s pointless though. Luffy could also jump right to Baljrung Gun against Kaido and end him, but no one jumps to their best moves right out the bat.

Luffy trying to go all out right away would just make Kizaru more wary. He can travel a dozen miles away in a second which would waste the effort.

On another note, one could just say that he pulls out his sword, Ama no Murakumo and stabs Luffy before he powers up from base and you’re back to square one.

One: Bajrang Gun can be dodged very easily.
Two: Kizaru wouldn't be able to do that, Luffy would see it coming with FS and try to stop it before it happens. Meanwhile Kizaru canonically can't stop Star Gun due to it's absurd speed.

 

[The DevilMaster]

He was physically harmed, but not enough to keep him down.

What kept him down was emotional not physical

All this means is that Kizaru could have continued fighting but was emotionally constrained as is obvious to any reader without a bias

Post automatically merged: Aug 17, 2024

Mental wound as per Kizarus words

Perfect, Yonkou Luffy humiliated and caused deep damage mentally to the kizaru, left him lying on the bow of a ship panting and unable to get up.

 

[Germinator]

Perfect, Yonkou Luffy humiliated and caused deep damage mentally to the kizaru, left him lying on the bow of a ship panting and unable to get up.

So Ruffys punches did emotional damage now?

 

[BlackLegFring]

One: Bajrang Gun can be dodged very easily.
Two: Kizaru wouldn't be able to do that, Luffy would see it coming with FS and try to stop it before it happens. Meanwhile Kizaru canonically can't stop Star Gun due to it's absurd speed.

One: Sure, which is my point. The fight could end immediately if Kaido is stupid enough to try and take on Bajrang Gun again.
Or Kaido could dodge and actually outlast Luffy and win that way, just like Kizaru.

Two: Why not? We literally already see him do that when him and Luffy are fighting in the air and Kizaru remembers he has a job to do. He’s gone before Luffy even realizes and tries to catch up.

All we see is Kizaru was already expecting Luffy’s form to run out. He fires a basic laser beam, but Luffy goes into a spin which confuses him, hence the question mark.
It would obviously be different if Kizaru decides to use one of his own trump card moves in turn or simply chooses to dodge knowing Luffy can still maintain the form.