Controversial Are subordinates a part of General's strength?

[Xione]

I'm genuinely curious as to how the fandom feels about this, since I believe this heavily impacts the general rankings.

What brought upon this question for me is the big difference between the Zhao 3 & Qin 6. The original Zhao 3 have far better subordinate set up than the Qin 6 did, aside from Ouki having Tou. And even Ouki seemed to have only used Tou as a 5k man commander lol (which is still one of the weirdest things when you reread Bayou, his best commander spent 90% of the war chilling back with Ouki and playing yes man). Whereas on an individual basis I think the Qin 6 have the better generals. Then from the current generation, nobody sniffs Riboku's collection of underlings lol.

The argument for: Recruiting is an ability needed for leaders. Thus, a general's ability to recruit powerful underlings should be a strength for them over those who don't possess such ability. Like RSJ having the 10 heroes to make up for his flaw on the martial side.

The argument against: It's heavily luck dependent, not everyone will be put in a situation to recruit powerful underlings, thus it's not a fair thing to bring up when comparing generals.

So, should a general's underling group be counted as part of his power? Or should a general's power only be considered his abilities to the battlefield? or if you have other opinions regarding it, please state.

 

[Cichy]

Warfare in Kingdom is a team sport in which the victory does not always depends on who's the best commander-in-chief. Which is why it's better to compare the armies itself rather then just their leaders. When it's comparing characters for a tier list I try to judge commanders as they stand on their own even tho it's difficult.

With that said, there seem to be a strong corelation between characters leadership stat and the strength of their armies as generals with high leadership stat usually also have great collections of vassals (Yotanwa, Riboku, Renpa, RSJ etc).

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Yes. At least I always thought so.

I think part of the reason Renpa was undefeatable at Sanyou was his Heavenly Kings. As they are personally loyal to Renpa and follow him into pretty much any battle, they absolutely count to his strength as a commander. And the same goes for any general with subordinates who are personally loyal to them.

 

[Rumble]

Good topic for discussion. Drop the tags next time, breh.

@Owl Ki @Blackbeard @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea @FutureWarrior123 @RayanOO @Xione @Greenbeard @Dark Admiral @Jailer @Peroroncino @Monet @Shanks @Pirao @Bullet @Yo Tan Wa @𝓓𝓡 . 𝕋𝒆ñ𝐦𝐚 @Darkrai1381 @Pirao @Luffy is the mc @Warchief Sanji D Goat @Bepo @Pot Goblin @centurion

-

My answer:

No, their ability to attract and deploy subordinates are strengths unto themselves, but I don't think of a general's strength to include that of their subordinates.

If we're comparing match ups in terms of armies vs armies, that's one thing, but I otherwise look at each general (or any military commander, including Strategists and Adjutants) and assess their skills in a vacuum.

Turns out, most of the good ones don't measure up any less.

 

[RayanOO]

Yes

I always thought that removing the armies and generals from a GG to powerscale him/her isn’t the right thing to do

Obviously a GG or a leader must be strong by himself but his subnoridnates are a direct part of how he fights, how good as a leader he is to recruit him, how good he built his armies and trained them to match his mind and strengths, or even to cover his lack of strength

So we can make GG vs GG in a vacuum with random armies and this can be interesting but if you want to know the their true strength you have to give them the whole package

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Yes

I always thought that removing the armies and generals from a GG to powerscale him/her isn’t the right thing to do

Obviously a GG or a leader must be strong by himself but his subnoridnates are a direct part of how he fights, how good as a leader he is to recruit him, how good he built his armies and trained them to match his mind and strengths, or even to cover his lack of strength

So we can make GG vs GG in a vacuum with random armies and this can be interesting but if you want to know the their true strength you have to give them the whole package

Take Renpa’s subordinates away and he’s like, exactly equal to Ouki. With subordinates he is above Ouki.

 

[Pirao]

Mougou the GOAT then

 

[Bepo]

Take Renpa’s subordinates away and he’s like, exactly equal to Ouki. With subordinates he is above Ouki.

Interesting take. I always thought Hara was a bit careful with giving Ouki too powerful subordinates since he already had Tou, things have to balance out a bit.

So basically, Mouten's statement is correct but that is excluding Tou since he's obviously superior to any one of Renpa's subordinates.

 

[God Buggy]

Interesting take. I always thought Hara was a bit careful with giving Ouki too powerful subordinates since he already had Tou, things have to balance out a bit.

So basically, Mouten's statement is correct but that is excluding Tou since he's obviously superior to any one of Renpa's subordinates.

Get ready for Kouen's rhm being able to easily take one Qin Six by himself, lol.

 

[Rumble]

So we can make GG vs GG in a vacuum with random armies and this can be interesting but if you want to know the their true strength you have to give them the whole package

I think it's the opposite. Everyone plays to their strengths. How a general uses assets is innate to their person: who they are, what they believe and what they value. Aptitude and character are what define style.

Ren Pa's style of warfare wouldn't change absent the 4HK. He'd still alternate strategies on the fly, use himself as bait, and push the scales to create a direct clash when it suited him.

Kei Sha would lure opponents into traps and slaughter them whether he had an impressive host like he did at during the Coalition War or a more modest fighting force, as at Koku You.

Ou Sen is supposedly famed for his plug and play style.

Spoiler: Chapter 535

Ou Ki made do with an 100K army comprised mostly of emergency conscripts instead of trained soldiers, and I don't think there's any reason to believe he fought of character in the one battle we saw him fight. In fact, his plan to take out Fuu Ki relied on a pretty much brand new asset to him: Shin.

Spoiler: Chapter 120

Ou Ki's plan to target and kill off the talented generals of the enemy is nothing new and more than likely how he's always preferred to do business, given his own prolific kills and that of his subordinates, Tou and Kyou.

-

As I see it, depending on the general, a subordinates can be one of 2 things: a tool that can be a replaced or a crutch that must be relied upon. If they general is really good, then they're on that Ryo Fui wavelength.

Spoiler: Chapter 420

In respect of Ren Pa, the Four Heavenly Kings were no different from Ryo Fui's Four Pillars. Ou Ki would be Ou Ki whether he had his generals or he was one his own. Yo Tan Wa would be who she is with or without her familiars. Kan Ki would be who he was with or without his family.

Ultimately, a general can only be adequately assessed by looking at them and them alone. Where do their talents lie? How do they prefer to solve problems? Etc.

 

[Bullet]

Get ready for Kouen's rhm being able to easily take one Qin Six by himself, lol.

I think Kou En is about to have a buffed up version of the HK
4-5 Vassals almost on the level of Man U and his boys.

 

[Rumble]

I think Kou En is about to have a buffed up version of the HK
4-5 Vassals almost on the level of Man U and his boys.

The 4HK were forged during the golden age of the Warring States Era.

Chu has been a superstate for a long time. Who would give them enough challenge for Kou En to be able forge his own 4HK? Yeah, historically Haku Ki sacked the former Chu capitol decades ago, but Hara's made no mention of it so it may not even have happened in the history of his fictional story.

And if there were sufficient challenges, that would mean Kou En's subordinates would be mostly old ass men, as Kou En is all but assured to be an old ass man himself when he appears.

 

[God Buggy]

I think Kou En is about to have a buffed up version of the HK
4-5 Vassals almost on the level of Man U and his boys.

Imma be honest, I doubt his main group of vassals is below Juuko.

 

[Bullet]

Imma be honest, I doubt his main group of vassals is below Juuko.

Honestly i'd imagine he has 2 men that almost touch the bottom of that Qin 6 tier as his left and right hand generals kind of like a Gyou'Un and CGR on roids and stacked with a few more decent generals.

The 4HK were forged during the golden age of the Warring States Era.

Chu has been a superstate for a long time. Who give them enough challenge for Kou En to be able forge his own 4HK? Yeah, historically Haku Ki sacked the former Chu capitol decades ago, but Hara's made no mention of it so it may not even have happened in the history of his fictional story.

And if there were sufficient challenges, that would mean Kou En's subordinates would be mostly old ass men, as Kou En is assured to be an old ass man himself when he appears.

Dude no one cares who challenged them or not
Hara just wrote a random castle with 4 GG's and one of them rag dolled Moubu.
Chu has been hyped to have the most man power and highest quality of generals, does it need justification for their number one GG to have recruited 4-5 of their best generals?
If there is a need for a challenge Hara will bring the necessary antagonists.
You want an explanation: oh they fought mountain savages, destroyed smaller states, helped conqueror whatever east is.

 

[Rumble]

Dude no one cares who challenged them or not
Hara just wrote a random castle with 4 GG's and one of them rag dolled Moubu.

Setting aside that this is the fandom that endlessly complains about Zhao generals popping up, Hara did give a justification for the Juuko generals and their strength: they were former enemies of Chu turned into assets of Chu.

In other words, he justified their strength and relative obscurity in spite of that.

There was also nothing random about Juuko or its worth, as it bought Qin 3 years to focus on Zhao.

Chu has been hyped to have the most man power and highest quality of generals, does it need justification for their number one GG to have recruited 4-5 of their best generals?
If there is a need for a challenge Hara will bring the necessary antagonists.
You want an explanation: oh they fought mountain savages, destroyed smaller states, helped conqueror whatever east is.

A Chu general has boasted about Chu possessing the highest quality of generals, that doesn't make it so. It may be true, but Rin Bu Kun was hardly a trustworthy source on that.

I've no problem with Kou En having 1 amazing vassal or a baker's dozen. The point I'm making is that if he does have such a formidable retinue, they are likely old in age already, as Kou En will be.

I think expecting Kou En to have an equivalent to 4HK in terms of skillset is setting yourself up for disappointment. Better to expect nothing. Depending on his relation to Kou Yoku, we may already be know 2 of his future vassals.

 

[God Buggy]

Honestly i'd imagine he has 2 men that almost touch the bottom of that Qin 6 tier as his left and right hand generals kind of like a Gyou'Un and CGR on roids and stacked with a few more decent generals.

Could be. I think some of his vassals are gonna be ex Great Generals that he defeated in his conquest of the East. Like I said I wouldn't be surprised if one (or even a couple) of them could easily go blow for blow with some of Qin's top.

Kyoukai could herself be a legit "Qin Six level" commander under Shin by the time the Chu conquest happens (yeah... @Elder Lee Hung @Owl Ki ). She is gonna take on one of Kouen's Generals.

 

[Bullet]

On topic tho: it depends.
Ofc the people you recruit and have loyal to you reflects on your leadership but some generals have been unlucky or didn't have the time or means to build up their army.
Some examples:
Kyou died too young.
Gokei didn't have access to the other fire dragons while GHM does.
Duke refused to join the Qin6 and thus we can guess wasn't given the same resources and opportunities as them etc..

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

Mougou had a stronger army than any of the Old Qin 6, doesn't change he was far below them

 

[SakazOuki]

Mougou had a stronger army than any of the Old Qin 6, doesn't change he was far below them

I'd say it depends on the general
Ousen's officers were nurtured by him
Someone like Mougou is the opposite
Renpa is closer to Mougou than Ousen in that regard

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

I'd say it depends on the general
Ousen's officers were nurtured by him
Someone like Mougou is the opposite
Renpa is closer to Mougou than Ousen in that regard

Renpa did basically raise Rinko from what we know

Genpou seemed to teach/raise Renpa. Kyou'En was recruited after a loss like Akou it seems like. Zero idea for Kaishibou