Spoiler One Piece Chapter 1164 Spoilers Discussion
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The strangest thing about this flashback is that Roger and Rocks are barely enemies
People like playing up the Teach and Luffy parallels but ignore that Roger and Rocks are almost friends if anything in this flashback
I think this wasn’t the original plan. Oda somewhere along the way changed Rocks’ character and his relationship to Roger. I wonder why?
People like playing up the Teach and Luffy parallels but ignore that Roger and Rocks are almost friends if anything in this flashback
I think this wasn’t the original plan. Oda somewhere along the way changed Rocks’ character and his relationship to Roger. I wonder why?
How can WSP/WSM have equals??
The title you always bought up when discussing with how old WB is confirm above other Yonko.
Shiki was that much popular in the old era and wasn't erased from history like Xebec, how come he was never included when people talk about Roger n WB as the peak of pirates?? People put ONLY WB and Roger at higher league
He was infact treated as nigh filler character like he is?
Not even worth relevant enough to reveal his bounty during the Yonkos bounty chapter when Roger and WB got it.
The title you always bought up when discussing with how old WB is confirm above other Yonko.
Shiki was that much popular in the old era and wasn't erased from history like Xebec, how come he was never included when people talk about Roger n WB as the peak of pirates?? People put ONLY WB and Roger at higher league
He was infact treated as nigh filler character like he is?
Not even worth relevant enough to reveal his bounty during the Yonkos bounty chapter when Roger and WB got it.
Yeah I don’t think that’s a realistic scenario tbh. If Oda is giving Teach things he needs to reach Laugh Tale, I’m going to bet heavy on the direction that Teach is going to Laugh Tale.
I do think they both might have ancient weapons but it doesn’t make sense to emphasize the PK race this saga, to kick out Law and steal his rubbings, have your subordinates kidnap a 3 eyed girl, just to do a complete swerve and never sniff Laugh Tale.
I do think they both might have ancient weapons but it doesn’t make sense to emphasize the PK race this saga, to kick out Law and steal his rubbings, have your subordinates kidnap a 3 eyed girl, just to do a complete swerve and never sniff Laugh Tale.
And Doflamingo was wrong. Like Kaido and BM were wrong for thinking the Ancient Weapons were the only way. And that exactly like Rocks thinking 2 devil fruits are the sole requirement for also doing.
See the pattern? All of these views are flawed. Im actually in full belief Teach's view is also flawed, but closer than anyone else. He obviously knows he needs One Piece. He knows he needs the Ancient Weapons. He knows his endgoal lies in Mariejoa. What I doubt he knows is the requirement of Luffy and presumably Elbaf's (i.e. Loki's) power as the presumed 2 sides of Nika. That is something Rocks thought he needed and what this flashback has been telling us. Its also what Imu seems to want too given he wants to make sure they are subdued.
Teach doesnt have the constant backing of many countries (Alabasta, Ryuguu Kingdom, Dressrosa, Zou, Wano, etc) unlike Luffy and he definitely wont force Shirahoshi to ally with him, who is prophesied to do something with Luffy.
This is why the order and time matters. Teach cutting the line so to speak breaks everything we know about the series lol
See the pattern? All of these views are flawed. Im actually in full belief Teach's view is also flawed, but closer than anyone else. He obviously knows he needs One Piece. He knows he needs the Ancient Weapons. He knows his endgoal lies in Mariejoa. What I doubt he knows is the requirement of Luffy and presumably Elbaf's (i.e. Loki's) power as the presumed 2 sides of Nika. That is something Rocks thought he needed and what this flashback has been telling us. Its also what Imu seems to want too given he wants to make sure they are subdued.
Teach doesnt have the constant backing of many countries (Alabasta, Ryuguu Kingdom, Dressrosa, Zou, Wano, etc) unlike Luffy and he definitely wont force Shirahoshi to ally with him, who is prophesied to do something with Luffy.
This is why the order and time matters. Teach cutting the line so to speak breaks everything we know about the series lol
1000% agree with this. Look at the architecture of Castle Pangea:
The doors are so big, HARALD FUCKING FIT IN THIS PLACE
The Ancient Kingdom built Pangea, IMO: this explains why people of all sizes are able to fit in the castle.
It was built to welcome EVERYONE, it was built by the Ancient Kingdom.
The Earth God from the 1st World was turned into a Devil Fruit, like Nika was turned into the Devil Fruit Joy Boy ate, since we know the Ancient Kingdom created Devil Fruits.
IMO, Devil Fruits were created to recreate powers ancient beings had possessed, that were lost in the war between Sun God Nika and Earth God: we see remnants of this ancient war in Elbaph, with the 3000 year old lab. This proves the 1st World Nika and the Earth God lived in also had advanced technology.
We know from Vegapunk you can use Lineage Factor to make new Devil Fruits, from Vegapunk semi-cloning Kaido's Fruit, as well as Senor Pink's, Mr. 1's, etc.
The Ancient Kingdom grave-robbed the graves of the likes of the Earth God/Nika, and used their Lineage Factor to "become" Gods.
However, we know what happens when Zoan Awakenings go bad.
Once Mythical Zoans began Awakening their Fruits, it became ABSOLUTE CHAOS.
The "Gods" who Nika fought in the First Age, were replicated through Devil Fruits. These were the Gods Whitebeard described living on the Red Line long before Marijoa, the Holy Land, was built by Joy Boy, the "Sun God", and his allies in the Ancient Kingdom.
The "Land of Gods" in the time of Marijoa, the 2nd Age, was the Ancient Kingdom, ruled by those who had used Lineage Factor to create Devil Fruits allowing them to become as powerful as Gods, effectively. They built Castle Pangea and the Holy Land on the Red Line to unite the world, making a round table every royal, of every size/race, would be welcome in, and the empty throne to keep it from being ruled by one individual.
The Red Line could be died red, in the blood of the Gods who died in the 1st Age. So, the Ancient Kingdom we know of in the 2nd Age, used the Ancient Technology and Lineage Factors from the 1st Age, to become a people/kingdom so advanced, they were a threat to the other 20 Kingdoms, due to their amazing power.
My one question is where do the Lunarians fit in. Birkans from the Moon, who became Cyborgs?
Where the Lunarians the Ancient Kingdoms attempts, at cloning... actual Angels, from the time of Nika, the 1st World?
The Halley depicts being with Halos over their heads losing them, and the name Seraphim is completely Angel-based:
There's an Angel next to the Noah, as well, on the right side of the mural. However, unlike the Lunarian on the left side, this angel is white. Is this depicting the Angels the Lunarians were created using the Lineage Factor of?
The Halley is not depicting the 3rd Age at all, IMO: how could they? They hadn't lived it, yet. But, 2nd Age pre-Void Century Elbaph, due to the age of Giants, most likely had records of the 1st Age.
So, the right of the Hally is the 1st World, and the left is the 2nd World.
I now believe the Serpent of Hellfire is Pluton, not the Red Line/Jormungandr. Pluton = God of the Underworld, beneath the earth. Imu = Earth God. Serpent of Hellfire = Serpent of Lava, Pluton, which lurks in the Magma of Wano's Mt. Fuji.
What if the Ancient Kingdom WASN'T Ancient to the 1st World, but, to the 2nd as well? WE know Alubarna's Palace was built 4000 years ago, and the Tree of Knowledge was planted 5000 years ago on Ohara. The Ancient Kingdom existed at least 4,000 years ago, in Alabasta.
This means that the war that destroyed Elbaph's history 3000 years ago, did not spread to the rest of the world, and destroy places like Alabasta and Ohara.
The 1st World depicted in the Halley is the period 3000 years ago. Since we know Elbaph was attacked 3000 years ago, it's likely this Serpent of Hellfire was defeated by the Warriors of Elbaph, stopping it from reaching Alabasta and Ohara, which survived.
We see Imu in Dragon form and the Serpent of Hellfire breathing fire on a flying ship shooting lightning: Uranus.
The "Forest God" would be the Sunlight Tree Eve, creating the Devil Fruits "Taming Demons". In Skypiea, the Jayans believed their ancestors' Spirits went into the Sacred Trees of their island. This is why they believed this: the Spirits of the Demons/Gods that died in the 1st World, became the Devil Fruits "tamed by the Forest God", ie absorbed by the Sunlight Tree Eve, in the 2nd World.
So, in the 1st World, actual Gods fought over the world, and destroyed a shit ton of it. This Ancient Kingdom was ruled by Evil Gods, and the Sun God Nika defeated them, but, the damage was great.
In the 2nd World, the remnants of the 1st World used the tech from the Ancient Kingdom to research Lineage Factor, and "clone" the old Gods through Devil Fruits. However, this time, the 2nd World's Ancient Kingdom learned from the mistakes of the 1st World, and this iteration of the Ancient Kingdom decided to try to unite the world as One Piece, rather than use their power to rule it. They built Marijoa, the Holy Land, to "marry" the Kingdoms of the World together in joy. Marry Joy, as in Joy Boy. The 20 Kingdoms viewed the power of the Ancient Kingdom as a threat to the world, and destroyed the Ancient Kingdom's leaders/territories, to take over the Holy Land and rule it. The World Government allowed the rest of the world to be drowned in floods, destroying most traces of the Ancient Kingdom/other Kingdoms, which the World Government betrayed, after being taken over by the Earth God.
We know bad Zoan Awakenings lead to insanity: some of the users of the Devil Fruits went insane when Awakening their Mythical Zoans, especially Nerona Imu, who ate the Earth God Fruit. Man "killed the Sun" by killing Joy Boy, and Poseidon raged.
The 3rd World has yet to occur, and is not depicted.
Edited for clarity/new content. Will probably make a thread about this.
The doors are so big, HARALD FUCKING FIT IN THIS PLACE
The Ancient Kingdom built Pangea, IMO: this explains why people of all sizes are able to fit in the castle.
It was built to welcome EVERYONE, it was built by the Ancient Kingdom.
The Earth God from the 1st World was turned into a Devil Fruit, like Nika was turned into the Devil Fruit Joy Boy ate, since we know the Ancient Kingdom created Devil Fruits.
IMO, Devil Fruits were created to recreate powers ancient beings had possessed, that were lost in the war between Sun God Nika and Earth God: we see remnants of this ancient war in Elbaph, with the 3000 year old lab. This proves the 1st World Nika and the Earth God lived in also had advanced technology.
We know from Vegapunk you can use Lineage Factor to make new Devil Fruits, from Vegapunk semi-cloning Kaido's Fruit, as well as Senor Pink's, Mr. 1's, etc.
The Ancient Kingdom grave-robbed the graves of the likes of the Earth God/Nika, and used their Lineage Factor to "become" Gods.
However, we know what happens when Zoan Awakenings go bad.
Once Mythical Zoans began Awakening their Fruits, it became ABSOLUTE CHAOS.
The "Gods" who Nika fought in the First Age, were replicated through Devil Fruits. These were the Gods Whitebeard described living on the Red Line long before Marijoa, the Holy Land, was built by Joy Boy, the "Sun God", and his allies in the Ancient Kingdom.
The "Land of Gods" in the time of Marijoa, the 2nd Age, was the Ancient Kingdom, ruled by those who had used Lineage Factor to create Devil Fruits allowing them to become as powerful as Gods, effectively. They built Castle Pangea and the Holy Land on the Red Line to unite the world, making a round table every royal, of every size/race, would be welcome in, and the empty throne to keep it from being ruled by one individual.
The Red Line could be died red, in the blood of the Gods who died in the 1st Age. So, the Ancient Kingdom we know of in the 2nd Age, used the Ancient Technology and Lineage Factors from the 1st Age, to become a people/kingdom so advanced, they were a threat to the other 20 Kingdoms, due to their amazing power.
My one question is where do the Lunarians fit in. Birkans from the Moon, who became Cyborgs?
Where the Lunarians the Ancient Kingdoms attempts, at cloning... actual Angels, from the time of Nika, the 1st World?
The Halley depicts being with Halos over their heads losing them, and the name Seraphim is completely Angel-based:
There's an Angel next to the Noah, as well, on the right side of the mural. However, unlike the Lunarian on the left side, this angel is white. Is this depicting the Angels the Lunarians were created using the Lineage Factor of?
The Halley is not depicting the 3rd Age at all, IMO: how could they? They hadn't lived it, yet. But, 2nd Age pre-Void Century Elbaph, due to the age of Giants, most likely had records of the 1st Age.
So, the right of the Hally is the 1st World, and the left is the 2nd World.
I now believe the Serpent of Hellfire is Pluton, not the Red Line/Jormungandr. Pluton = God of the Underworld, beneath the earth. Imu = Earth God. Serpent of Hellfire = Serpent of Lava, Pluton, which lurks in the Magma of Wano's Mt. Fuji.
What if the Ancient Kingdom WASN'T Ancient to the 1st World, but, to the 2nd as well? WE know Alubarna's Palace was built 4000 years ago, and the Tree of Knowledge was planted 5000 years ago on Ohara. The Ancient Kingdom existed at least 4,000 years ago, in Alabasta.
This means that the war that destroyed Elbaph's history 3000 years ago, did not spread to the rest of the world, and destroy places like Alabasta and Ohara.
The 1st World depicted in the Halley is the period 3000 years ago. Since we know Elbaph was attacked 3000 years ago, it's likely this Serpent of Hellfire was defeated by the Warriors of Elbaph, stopping it from reaching Alabasta and Ohara, which survived.
We see Imu in Dragon form and the Serpent of Hellfire breathing fire on a flying ship shooting lightning: Uranus.
The "Forest God" would be the Sunlight Tree Eve, creating the Devil Fruits "Taming Demons". In Skypiea, the Jayans believed their ancestors' Spirits went into the Sacred Trees of their island. This is why they believed this: the Spirits of the Demons/Gods that died in the 1st World, became the Devil Fruits "tamed by the Forest God", ie absorbed by the Sunlight Tree Eve, in the 2nd World.
So, in the 1st World, actual Gods fought over the world, and destroyed a shit ton of it. This Ancient Kingdom was ruled by Evil Gods, and the Sun God Nika defeated them, but, the damage was great.
In the 2nd World, the remnants of the 1st World used the tech from the Ancient Kingdom to research Lineage Factor, and "clone" the old Gods through Devil Fruits. However, this time, the 2nd World's Ancient Kingdom learned from the mistakes of the 1st World, and this iteration of the Ancient Kingdom decided to try to unite the world as One Piece, rather than use their power to rule it. They built Marijoa, the Holy Land, to "marry" the Kingdoms of the World together in joy. Marry Joy, as in Joy Boy. The 20 Kingdoms viewed the power of the Ancient Kingdom as a threat to the world, and destroyed the Ancient Kingdom's leaders/territories, to take over the Holy Land and rule it. The World Government allowed the rest of the world to be drowned in floods, destroying most traces of the Ancient Kingdom/other Kingdoms, which the World Government betrayed, after being taken over by the Earth God.
We know bad Zoan Awakenings lead to insanity: some of the users of the Devil Fruits went insane when Awakening their Mythical Zoans, especially Nerona Imu, who ate the Earth God Fruit. Man "killed the Sun" by killing Joy Boy, and Poseidon raged.
The 3rd World has yet to occur, and is not depicted.
Edited for clarity/new content. Will probably make a thread about this.
Last edited:
I don't think rocks over shadow him.
On GV he not taking order from rocks he stay because he wanted to.
Showing that he was always a person that was loyal .
To me if anything the flashback show that WB just on differnt level from others.
Not only was he super strong but man was cool enough that even roger was you want be PK i tell could you everything .
WB was nah i cool when he former captain wanted to rule the world and WB stay at top for another 20 year after roger died .
On GV he not taking order from rocks he stay because he wanted to.
Showing that he was always a person that was loyal .
To me if anything the flashback show that WB just on differnt level from others.
Not only was he super strong but man was cool enough that even roger was you want be PK i tell could you everything .
WB was nah i cool when he former captain wanted to rule the world and WB stay at top for another 20 year after roger died .
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