Controversial General Political Discussion

[Natalija]

Except it isn't direct foreign nations, it's corporations.

I am not against nationalizing some industries, so at least make that argument. You don't want privatization of national resources, I think that's valid and I've always been against the U.S intervention over this topic

I think people are confusing a lot of terms when it comes to this topic, every country has sovereignty over their resources and sets their own rules about extraction, but in case of "ownership", it's most common for the resource to be state owned and extracted by private companies.

It's not de facto bad if a state owned company does it, but the issue is that the way of governance is most important, and if you have a second or third world country where it's just a political tool like in the case of Venezuela with zero investment ... It'll fail miserably.

His take is like 80% correct though.

@Natalija just mistake Venezuela's governament with Venezueala's people. The governament is benefit by taxes not the people.

Oh never mind him, he's just saying things to stir shit with zero arguments.

Yes, essentially the taxes and royalties go to the government, it's on them to make a new one which will make sure that the country and its citizens will benefit from this industry.

But also the Venezuelan people directly, who will have direct, indirect, and induced employment. So connected to the industry, supply chain, supporting economy, etc. etc.

 

[Mathias]

Maduro already in New-York for his upcoming trial.

There is no way that the US decides to just lose "the case" and let Maduro go back to Venezuela.

He will spend the rest of his life behind bars or executed or way worse.

I don't care much about him personally but this is very bad for diplomacy with Latin American lefties (and more).

Looks like it...

Trump might be the worst thing that ever happened to the US.. and everyone else around.

Paratroopers kidnapping and killing behind « enemy lines » will be presented as a peaceful war.

So, in your opinion, how would you get rid of imperialism?

Kidnap the WhiteHouse

I was born in a socialist state, so indeed

"I was born in Pinochet's Chile. I can tell that capitalism is bad and we need literally the whole opposite"

 

[MonochromeYoru]

I mean I am for self sovereignty, but you do realize what happened after the french revolution right? lmao

yes

After a few more revolutions, they gained real freedom. Freedom they use to purposely eat snails and frogs.

I guess it's probable, you just need to be more clear as to what this entails

The american oil companies will set up shop in Venezuela. Use the locals as cheap labor with below minimum wages. Drain the natural resources. Then get the fuck out of there.
To let them do that, the companies will bribe the new regime and politicians. The wealthy will also get a cut.
Rich get richer. Poor stay poor or get even more poor.

That's the best case scenario. Worst case is armed uprisings against the murican invaders that end in bloodshed on both sides.

We'll see what happens.
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Maduro already in New-York for his upcoming trial.

There is no way that the US decides to just lose "the case" and let Maduro go back to Venezuela.

He will spend the rest of his life behind bars or executed or way worse.

I don't care much about him personally but this is very bad for diplomacy with Latin American lefties (and more).

Maduro is not a good person

But it's insanely hilarious that he's being prosecuted by a country who's sitting president was literally convicted of 34 counts of felony, and is a confirmed creep lmao

He pardoned Honduras president who did the same shit as Maduro supposedly did too lol.

 

[Natalija]

"I was born in Pinochet's Chile. I can tell that capitalism is bad and we need literally the whole opposite"

Capitalism is the most successful economic system out of everything which was tried in history, but if you think of something better, make a suggestion. As long as it isn't socialism.

 

[Mathias]

Capitalism is the most successful economic system out of everything which was tried in history, but if you think of something better, make a suggestion. As long as it isn't socialism.

You've missed the entire point. Read again.

My point is that the argument of "I was born in socialist state so I KNOW it doesn't work" is a fallacy.

Before the election in the 50s in Turkey, "democracy doesn't work with Islamic populations" was a great argument too then.

 

[Natalija]

You've missed the entire point. Read again.

My point is that the argument of "I was born in socialist state so I KNOW it doesn't work" is a fallacy.

Before the election in the 50s in Turkey, "democracy doesn't work with Islamic populations" was a great argument too then.

It's not an argument, it's a fact in response to Roo.

If you wanna argue about socialism, we can

 

[HerreraIsBack]

Oh never mind him, he's just saying things to stir shit with zero arguments.

Yes, essentially the taxes and royalties go to the government, it's on them to make a new one which will make sure that the country and its citizens will benefit from this industry.

But also the Venezuelan people directly, who will have direct, indirect, and induced employment. So connected to the industry, supply chain, supporting economy, etc. etc.

Yup, my point was just to remind that things that go to governament have 0 positive impact on population. Or at least less positive impact if there was no tax.

 

[Logiko]

Capitalism is the most successful economic system out of everything which was tried in history, but if you think of something better, make a suggestion. As long as it isn't socialism.

It's not really fair to say that one system that has been hegemonic for centuries is necessarily better than a system that was never really tried and even attacked constantly by the other system thus prevent to really come to light... and it's not even counting the number of casualty that would demonstrate Capitalism as an instant failure compared to socialist systems...

 

[Roo]

yes

After a few more revolutions, they gained real freedom. Freedom they use to purposely eat snails and frogs.

The american oil companies will set up shop in Venezuela. Use the locals as cheap labor with below minimum wages. Drain the natural resources. Then get the fuck out of there.
To let them do that, the companies will bribe the new regime and politicians. The wealthy will also get a cut.
Rich get richer. Poor stay poor or get even more poor.

That's the best case scenario. Worst case is armed uprisings against the murican invaders that end in bloodshed on both sides.

We'll see what happens.

The best case scenario is pretty much the current one lmao.

 

[Natalija]

Yup, my point was just to remind that things that go to governament have 0 positive impact on population. Or at least less positive impact if there was no tax.

Well, most mining laws in Europe demand that part of the royalties go to the local communities, which in itself is great (this is not the case for US states).

Again, it depends on how the country is governed.

 

[Roo]

You've missed the entire point. Read again.

My point is that the argument of "I was born in socialist state so I KNOW it doesn't work" is a fallacy.

Before the election in the 50s in Turkey, "democracy doesn't work with Islamic populations" was a great argument too then.

I never made that argument you snail eater. I just saw where convo was going and gave logiko a headsup about nat

 

[Mathias]

It's not an argument, it's a fact in response to Roo.

If you wanna argue about socialism, we can

I didn't read Logiko's post from two posts above the quote...
Thread literally jumped over 10pages within less than a day.


France had a socialist president in the 80s with communists in its government.
It's a fact too.

 

[Natalija]

It's not really fair to say that one system that has been hegemonic for centuries is necessarily better than a system that was never really tried and even attacked constantly by the other system thus prevent to really come to light... and it's not even counting the number of casualty that would demonstrate Capitalism as an instant failure compared to socialist systems...

Which one was never tried?

 

[Logiko]

Which one was never tried?

Socialism
Never really implemented rather*

 

[Natalija]

Socialism

 

[Roo]

I didn't read Logiko's post from two posts above the quote...
Thread literally jumped over 10pages within less than a day.


France had a socialist president in the 80s with communists in its government.
It's a fact too.

that's the neat part about liberalism

communist and socialist can exist in it

 

[Logiko]

Can you tell me what is scaring you in socialism? Maybe I can clear a few fears

 

[Mathias]

Salvador Allende's socialist Chile was doing good before the Pinochet military coup too.

that's the neat part about liberalism

communist and socialist can exist in it

What do you mean exactly in the context of your reply to me saying that France had a socialist president for over a decade ?

It seems like you're talking about something else.

 

[Roo]

Salvador Allende's socialist Chile was doing good before the Pinochet military coup too.



What do you mean exactly in the context of your reply to me saying that France had a socialist president for over a decade ?

It seems like you're talking about something else.

France is basically the heart of liberalism, and the good part of liberalism is that it allows other beliefs such as communism and socialism exist within it.

Even if France had a socialist leader, it still was largely a capitalist society. Just like Mandami is a socialist who runs a hyper capitalist city.

Those things are very different than an actual socialist country, because for the most part they don't allow capitalist to exist

 

[MonochromeYoru]

The best case scenario is pretty much the current one lmao.

he was kinda good for france. but also kinda bad.

But there were revolutions after him too.

A country does not simply fix all it's problems with one single revolution. It's a long process.