The false 'materialism' you preach
The "false materialism"!!??




This is precisely why @Uncle Van contests your points. You want actions to occur based on your ideal end-point, not the current position.
How do you think civil and social right activists fought in the past? Do you think they waited for the "right political paradigm", something not to "hardcore on them" to start fighting and create collectives of struggles?

@Logiko I think I'm going to start reading Capital
Good idea.

But within a materialism framework, I fear that you will not like what he has to say....
 

Uncle Van

Monké Don't Do Taxes
The false 'materialism' you preach, or the materialist nature of almost all communist movements? Because I mean the latter in this instance. :vistalaugh:

Ultimately, communism is a godless philosophy. It lacks transcendentalism.



This is precisely why @Uncle Van contests your points. You want actions to occur based on your ideal end-point, not the current position. At present, it will just cause misery. You need to foster the environment you want before it can function effectively. Forcing it will just cause collapse and resentment.
Pretty much. It's the complete disregard for pragmatism in favor of forcing an ideal scenario where everything goes exactly to plan and everyone happily join hands singing kumbaya.

He calls himself a Marxist, it is like he is completely unaware about what that means or is trying to change the negative connotations about it by always using the no true Scotsman fallacy.

Communism fucked up Russia and Brazil. Smaller countries where socialism prevailed still came at the cost of hundreds of thousands along with sanctions from the global capitalist economy. How exactly can a revolution occur without significance social and economic instability? How can you be so sure that revolution would succeed? How can be sure that leaders of the revolution wouldn't be shitheads? Etc. Etc.
 
It's the complete disregard for pragmatism in favor of forcing an ideal scenario where everything goes exactly to plan and everyone happily join hands singing kumbaya.
This is where my issue stems from. The desire for a result does not mean that others will also work towards that goal in a productive manner. Forcing it is just going to cause untold amounts of tragedy.

Ultimately, it's a Utopian vision to believe this cannot happen without major sacrifices - and if you're willing to force it before the culture is ready for it, then you're basically doing a Lord Farquad: "Some of you might die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make."
 

Uncle Van

Monké Don't Do Taxes
Brazil was never a full-blown communist dictatorship, though. It kind of is a left-wing judicial dictatorship right now.
I know. Communism still had a strong presence in Brazil, and their multiple fail coups caused political instability leading to far right authoritarianism taking hold(well, being a big factor to it).
 
I know. Communism still had a strong presence in Brazil, and their multiple fail coups caused political instability leading to far right authoritarianism taking hold(well, being a big factor to it).
More like center-left authoritarianism. Most economic policies the military employed were left-wing.
 
Pretty much. It's the complete disregard for pragmatism in favor of forcing an ideal scenario where everything goes exactly to plan and everyone happily join hands singing kumbaya.
Materialism is literally a philosophy of pragmatism Van.

He calls himself a Marxist, it is like he is completely unaware about what that means or is trying to change the negative connotations about it by always using the no true Scotsman fallacy.
...

How exactly can a revolution occur without significance social and economic instability?
No one said creating paradise would be a ride in the park. To build such society, we would need to strip the bourgoisie from it power. It will NEVER happen without a panic of their side and an attempt to destroy us through fire and bombs.

Now the question is : Is it worth it?

The answer is simple: If we don't do it soon, the next century will see humans societies roaming with sticks and stones.

How can you be so sure that revolution would succeed?
We can't be sure. Revolutions are not made with certainties, they are created through necessities.

How can be sure that leaders of the revolution wouldn't be shitheads?
By creating revolutionnary systems that will prevent shitheads from accessing power.

Now, there is the easy way, or the hard way. I consider the hard way to be more viable : A slow revolution, a change from the bottom, with big revolutionnary pushes from all side, a steady growing bases, larges scale collectives and associations, a CLEAR project and patience.

A revolution today would be suicidal, only a complete fascist regime should warrant such extrem measures. I think we can work differently, but revolutionnaries will still need to work fast. People are dying, the planet is boiling, capitalists are entering crisis mode, fascism is rising, the balance of power is shifting, world war 3 is looming... this century will be one of the most defining century in the history of mankind.

I say century, but you can even count that in decades and even years.

Everyone must do their part before it's too late.

Being a old conspi, I'm personnally convinced that my "part" is to try to find a replicable recipe to politicize people pacifically as easily as I was. My goal is to later use that experience to help politicize people in real life more easily. It doesn't seems to be possible as of now. But I won't give up that easily.

You don't have to agree with me, but you can help me if you believe that we do need to surpass capitalism in one way or another.

I need you to politicize. And by that I'm not trying to be judgefull, I'm asking a favor. I'm asking you to try to seek thinkers specifically on dialectical materialism, intersectionnality (not a focus on the liberal version, seek the materialist one) and anti-imperialism. These 3 specific domains.

My hypothesis is the following : I'm currently considered a lolcow on this thread. This is a fact and even I play with it sometimes. But it doesn't matter. I may have my personnality defects but my current perspective on materialism is solid (even if not perfect).

I believe that if ONE person - who has been vocally conflictual against me on this thread - manages to politicize themselves enough in order to side with a materialistic frameworks, it will send a shockwave strong enough to lower the threadshold of acceptance of people all over this thread. Not necessarily politicizing in itself, but moving enough so that people may pause and question their preconception of this perspective.

On this precise moment, we will try to give keys of politicization for people to slightly shift their perspective. Things that I may have already said before, but which should be seen differently. (I still don't know what keys)

If it works, we would have proven that it is possible to politicize an entire politically hostile space pacifically. Shifting the power dynamic just enough to produce a ripple effect, to jumpstart a potential politicization chain reaction from the closest to the farthest on the political spectrum. Then we will have to analyze the conditions, the tone, the subjects, the antagonisms... To reproduce that process elsewhere.

This is perhaps my madness or my stupid savior complex talking, but I feel in my bone that creating such reaction is possible. And I need you. Or at least someone who has been highly conflictual with me on political subjects. I told you before, but with your knowledge, you could even become more radical than me and start to correct me based on the rethoric I'm devlopping here.

But I can't simply ask you to check books like that, first I need to make sure your material conditions change just enough for you to change your perspective and create the will to politicize farther. I know that you are curious, so I'll send you a list of twitter @ in PM that should help you with that.

I don't want people to bother them here, so I'll keep this private for now. Keep these @ around three month daily and then come back to tell me if your perspective has slightly changed (perhaps it won't). Don't be afraid to be sceptical. Their rethorics will shock you, that is the point.
 
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Reborn

Throughout Heaven & Earth,I alone am d Honored One
Before anyone sign up for logiko's experiment, I would like to say that I tried this experiment via PM and zoom meetings for 5 months

It's highly effective but not as I imagined

I went from the left to the right leaning

From having hair to being bald

From being gigachad to a troll and a clown

Got forced by others to get myself tested for being crazy :josad:
 
Before anyone sign up for logiko's experiment, I would like to say that I tried this experiment via PM and zoom meetings for 5 months

It's highly effective but not as I imagined

I went from the left to the right leaning

From having hair to being bald

From being gigachad to a troll and a clown

Got forced by others to get myself tested for being crazy :josad:
Skill issue

:pepepopcorn:
 
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