Chapter Discussion Is Killer underrated?
- Thread starter T.D.A
- Start date
Judging too early, as usual. Once Wano is over, then you will see who was daydreaming and who not. :cheers:
Betting against Zoro has never been wise whether you hate him or not, after all, the author himself said not to speak ill of Zoro.
Betting against Zoro has never been wise whether you hate him or not, after all, the author himself said not to speak ill of Zoro.
Also you seem the one who judges too early
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But Kid couldn't do it in a 3 vs 1 against Apoo with a free shot while apoo was dealing with luffy and zoro and not giving them the chance to counter attack 
@rerere what manga are u reading u have the audacity to claim some shit without proofs
As for the argument that Kamazou had been tortured,. We see some of the bandages covering his face removed in Udon, and the skin underneath is relatively unmarked:
Killer's torture is presumed to have been by Orochi, but it was revealed in the latest chapter that Killer took the SMILE voluntarily to gain the chance to save his captain:
[/QUOTE]
As for the argument that Kamazou had been tortured,. We see some of the bandages covering his face removed in Udon, and the skin underneath is relatively unmarked:
Killer's torture is presumed to have been by Orochi, but it was revealed in the latest chapter that Killer took the SMILE voluntarily to gain the chance to save his captain:
lmao that bs of killer is injured and he is mentally broken and and to downplay Zoro massacring him here
Arguments
Killer was Mentally Hindered
Killer as Kamazou was mentally broken due to his defeat and being forced to fight against his will. He was not able to deploy his full combat abilities when he encountered Zoro. Becoming a pleasure further encumbered his mental capacities as he could not stop his incessant laughter:
He was shown to hate laughter to the extent that he wore a mask to hide his face and he would beat people to within an inch of their lives for seeing his laughter:
Killer may even have been tortured by Orochi given all the bandages we saw him wearing in battle.
I do not find this argument in the slightest bit credible. Killer appeared completely lucid and in his right senses during his battle with Zoro. He recognised Zoro as the wanted criminal Zorojuro and interrogated him and Hiyori on why they were protecting Otama:
He chastised Hiyori for referring to Orochi by name:
He engaged in pre fight banter with Zoro:
He was able to tell that Zoro wasn't taking their confrontation seriously:
Kamazou appeared to be in full possession of his mental faculties during the fight and did not give me any reason to believe he was in anyway hindered. He did not come across as a broken man who was unable to deploy his full abilities. If the laugh is the reason for his mental inhibition, then that would mean current Killer is still nerfed, after all he still laughs incessantly (and there doesn't really appear to be any indication that this would change soon either):
Besides, the SMILE does not encumber its victims apart from denying them the ability to swim and granting incessant laughter:
As for the argument that Kamazou had been tortured, this has very little to back it up. We see some of the bandages covering his face removed in Udon, and the skin underneath is relatively unmarked:
Killer's torture is presumed to have been by Orochi, but it was revealed in the latest chapter that Killer took the SMILE voluntarily to gain the chance to save his captain:
Killer was Orochi's assassin:
It doesn't make much sense that Orochi would have deliberately neutered the effectiveness of his tool. That Killer was fighting to save Kidd suggest that his willpower and determination should have been at its maximum. Suggesting that Killer was in anyway mentally broken is frankly an insult to his character and stature as a supernova. I think his tears at the beginning of Udon was ultimately from failing at the task Orochi assigned him and thus being unable to rescue Kidd or being the result of Kidd's (re)capture. His tears could have also been tears of joy due to his reunion. Whatever the reason is, it seems it wasn't due to a mental breakdown as a result of eating the SMILE.
Killer was Denied his Main Weapons
Arguments
- Killer was mentally hindered
- Killer didn't have access to his custom weapons
- Killer is injured
Killer was Mentally Hindered
Killer as Kamazou was mentally broken due to his defeat and being forced to fight against his will. He was not able to deploy his full combat abilities when he encountered Zoro. Becoming a pleasure further encumbered his mental capacities as he could not stop his incessant laughter:
He was shown to hate laughter to the extent that he wore a mask to hide his face and he would beat people to within an inch of their lives for seeing his laughter:
Killer may even have been tortured by Orochi given all the bandages we saw him wearing in battle.
I do not find this argument in the slightest bit credible. Killer appeared completely lucid and in his right senses during his battle with Zoro. He recognised Zoro as the wanted criminal Zorojuro and interrogated him and Hiyori on why they were protecting Otama:
He chastised Hiyori for referring to Orochi by name:
He engaged in pre fight banter with Zoro:
He was able to tell that Zoro wasn't taking their confrontation seriously:
Kamazou appeared to be in full possession of his mental faculties during the fight and did not give me any reason to believe he was in anyway hindered. He did not come across as a broken man who was unable to deploy his full abilities. If the laugh is the reason for his mental inhibition, then that would mean current Killer is still nerfed, after all he still laughs incessantly (and there doesn't really appear to be any indication that this would change soon either):
Besides, the SMILE does not encumber its victims apart from denying them the ability to swim and granting incessant laughter:
As for the argument that Kamazou had been tortured, this has very little to back it up. We see some of the bandages covering his face removed in Udon, and the skin underneath is relatively unmarked:
Killer's torture is presumed to have been by Orochi, but it was revealed in the latest chapter that Killer took the SMILE voluntarily to gain the chance to save his captain:
Killer was Orochi's assassin:
It doesn't make much sense that Orochi would have deliberately neutered the effectiveness of his tool. That Killer was fighting to save Kidd suggest that his willpower and determination should have been at its maximum. Suggesting that Killer was in anyway mentally broken is frankly an insult to his character and stature as a supernova. I think his tears at the beginning of Udon was ultimately from failing at the task Orochi assigned him and thus being unable to rescue Kidd or being the result of Kidd's (re)capture. His tears could have also been tears of joy due to his reunion. Whatever the reason is, it seems it wasn't due to a mental breakdown as a result of eating the SMILE.
Killer was Denied his Main Weapons
Another popular argument (and the one I find to be the most credible) that Killer was nerfed while he fought as Kamazou was that he was denied access to his signature mechanical sickles. Killer was not using his main weapons and so he was not able to perform to the fullest of his abilities. WIthout his mechanical sickles, he may have lost access to his fighting style.
I think this is more a plausible argument than claiming Killer was mentally hindered, but I am not fully on board with it.
Killer was capable of effectively replicating his acrobatic combat style that he normally uses with his mechanical sickles through his scythes:
He was clashing quite comfortably with Zoro and displayed high proficiency in the use of the mechanical sickles:
Within seconds of seizing one of the scythes (a weapon that is most decidedly not a sword) Zoro was able to adapt and improvise one of his signature Santoryu techniques:
Killer has had the scythes for several days (possibly even weeks), and the scythes are much closer to his mechanical ones than they are to a sword. If Zoro can adapt within seconds, Killer should already be highly proficient given the much longer timespan he had to get used to it (from his performance against Zoro, I would say that this is the case).
Some people have compared Zoro with Killer using the scythes to Zoro adapting to random swords. I guess it's a fair comparison. Here's how Zoro performed against Hacchi (again, within mere seconds) of receiving random swords:
He was able to replicate three of his santoryu techniques (Toro Nagashi, Onigiri and Tatsumaki) and completely outskilled Hatchan in CQC. Was this Zoro (who only had a few seconds to get used to his swords) noticeably weaker than a Zoro with swords he was accustomed to? Perhaps, but if he was weaker at all, it wouldn't have been by a large amount.
On another occasion, Zoro stole random swords from the Sakura kingdom and easily disposed of his assailants (again with no indication that his combat ability had significantly declined):
But people stress that Zoro was weaker because he was missing Shusui! Yes this is true, but this is not because Zoro was merely missing a sword that he was accustomed to, but because Zoro had lost access to his signature Santoryu style. He mentioned that he doesn't feel right without a third sword and lamented being unable to show it to Ryuma:
Shusui is also not an ordinary sword. It is an O Wazamono (one of only 21 in the world) and a black blade (one of only two to be shown in the series) that boasts of hardness and is "much heavier" than normal:
The slashes produced by Shusui are much stronger than the slashes produced by Sandai Kitetsu and Wado Ichimonji, to the extent that it swallowed up the other two:
Shusui's absence is different from the other swords, because it is in a sense special and directly boosted Zoro's attack power. Because of these tangible benefits that Shusui provides Zoro, losing Shusui would be a significant reduction in Zoro's combat ability.
Before Zoro acquired Shusui, I don't think the particular sword Zoro used was that influential on his combat ability. In general, it usually takes Zoro a while to get accustomed to new Meitou (of the five Meitou we've seen him weild, he mentioned having to get accustomed to 3 of them (Sandai Kitetsu, Shusui and Enma):
But this seems to only apply to Meitou. He's able to instantly wield nameless blades to great effectiveness. He's never mentioned having any difficulty using those swords, and he has had to change blades many times due to his blades being broken.
Santoryu Zoro with three random swords would be weaker than Santoryu Zoro with Wado Ichimonji, Shusui and Sandai Kitetsu, but the difference would not be all that large (I think it would be at least a lower high difficulty fight). Mihawk said that with haki, any blade can become a black blade (what Shusui is):
Whatever (probably not that large) gap there was in Zoro's ability dependent on his blades preskip, it has substantially shrunk postskip.
The ability of the wielder is more important than the blade itself (and overwhelmingly so it appears).
On top of the loss of his strongest weapon, Zoro also lost access to his strongest fighting style (Santoryu), and I think that was the main cause of the drop in his combat ability.
Killer seems to have retained his fighting style, but he did not have access to his preferred weapons. Might Killer's mechanical sickles fulfill a role similar to Shusui? I think that is plausible, but it hasn't really been demonstrated in the manga. If we are shown that Killer's mechanical sickles boost his combat stats, then I would update towards Kamazou having been significantly weaker. As of now, it is unknown to what extent the mechanical sickles add on to his abilities. In a later section, I would cover some reasons to be sceptical of a big gap between the mechanical sickles and the scythes.
The Argument
Reasons for Skepticism
I think this is more a plausible argument than claiming Killer was mentally hindered, but I am not fully on board with it.
Killer was capable of effectively replicating his acrobatic combat style that he normally uses with his mechanical sickles through his scythes:
Rotating to attack Hiyori and Tama:
Backflipping away from Zoro.
Jumping around the place while trying to find an opening to attack Zoro from:
Backflipping to fall back:
Backflipping away from Zoro.
Jumping around the place while trying to find an opening to attack Zoro from:
Backflipping to fall back:
He was clashing quite comfortably with Zoro and displayed high proficiency in the use of the mechanical sickles:
Within seconds of seizing one of the scythes (a weapon that is most decidedly not a sword) Zoro was able to adapt and improvise one of his signature Santoryu techniques:
Killer has had the scythes for several days (possibly even weeks), and the scythes are much closer to his mechanical ones than they are to a sword. If Zoro can adapt within seconds, Killer should already be highly proficient given the much longer timespan he had to get used to it (from his performance against Zoro, I would say that this is the case).
Some people have compared Zoro with Killer using the scythes to Zoro adapting to random swords. I guess it's a fair comparison. Here's how Zoro performed against Hacchi (again, within mere seconds) of receiving random swords:
He was able to replicate three of his santoryu techniques (Toro Nagashi, Onigiri and Tatsumaki) and completely outskilled Hatchan in CQC. Was this Zoro (who only had a few seconds to get used to his swords) noticeably weaker than a Zoro with swords he was accustomed to? Perhaps, but if he was weaker at all, it wouldn't have been by a large amount.
On another occasion, Zoro stole random swords from the Sakura kingdom and easily disposed of his assailants (again with no indication that his combat ability had significantly declined):
But people stress that Zoro was weaker because he was missing Shusui! Yes this is true, but this is not because Zoro was merely missing a sword that he was accustomed to, but because Zoro had lost access to his signature Santoryu style. He mentioned that he doesn't feel right without a third sword and lamented being unable to show it to Ryuma:
Shusui is also not an ordinary sword. It is an O Wazamono (one of only 21 in the world) and a black blade (one of only two to be shown in the series) that boasts of hardness and is "much heavier" than normal:
The slashes produced by Shusui are much stronger than the slashes produced by Sandai Kitetsu and Wado Ichimonji, to the extent that it swallowed up the other two:
Shusui's absence is different from the other swords, because it is in a sense special and directly boosted Zoro's attack power. Because of these tangible benefits that Shusui provides Zoro, losing Shusui would be a significant reduction in Zoro's combat ability.
Before Zoro acquired Shusui, I don't think the particular sword Zoro used was that influential on his combat ability. In general, it usually takes Zoro a while to get accustomed to new Meitou (of the five Meitou we've seen him weild, he mentioned having to get accustomed to 3 of them (Sandai Kitetsu, Shusui and Enma):
But this seems to only apply to Meitou. He's able to instantly wield nameless blades to great effectiveness. He's never mentioned having any difficulty using those swords, and he has had to change blades many times due to his blades being broken.
Santoryu Zoro with three random swords would be weaker than Santoryu Zoro with Wado Ichimonji, Shusui and Sandai Kitetsu, but the difference would not be all that large (I think it would be at least a lower high difficulty fight). Mihawk said that with haki, any blade can become a black blade (what Shusui is):
Whatever (probably not that large) gap there was in Zoro's ability dependent on his blades preskip, it has substantially shrunk postskip.
The ability of the wielder is more important than the blade itself (and overwhelmingly so it appears).
On top of the loss of his strongest weapon, Zoro also lost access to his strongest fighting style (Santoryu), and I think that was the main cause of the drop in his combat ability.
Killer seems to have retained his fighting style, but he did not have access to his preferred weapons. Might Killer's mechanical sickles fulfill a role similar to Shusui? I think that is plausible, but it hasn't really been demonstrated in the manga. If we are shown that Killer's mechanical sickles boost his combat stats, then I would update towards Kamazou having been significantly weaker. As of now, it is unknown to what extent the mechanical sickles add on to his abilities. In a later section, I would cover some reasons to be sceptical of a big gap between the mechanical sickles and the scythes.
An Examination of the Weapons Argument
The Argument
The argument goes that Killer was using weapons that are very different in shape and form to his usual weapons. Compare his mechanical sickles:
To the scythes he wielded as Kamazou:
The shape, reach, and other pertinent characteristics of the weapons are very different. In my initial post I compared Killer switching his mechanical sickles for the scythes can be compared to Zoro switching his usual katana for three random swords, but it was brought to my attention that a more apt analogy would be Zoro switching his three katana for three spears or three axes. In such a situation, we would all likely agree that Zoro's combat abilities were severely limited. @Garp the Fist made a comparison to how Zoro was severely hindered at the Davy Back fight when he had to fight without his swords and was limited to Mutoryu.
Do you guys agree that the above is an accurate representation of your argument? It's important that we are discussing the same argument. If you feel I have accurately represented the argument, then you can proceed (if not, let me know in a below reply and I'll update this section to incorporate your feedback).
To the scythes he wielded as Kamazou:
The shape, reach, and other pertinent characteristics of the weapons are very different. In my initial post I compared Killer switching his mechanical sickles for the scythes can be compared to Zoro switching his usual katana for three random swords, but it was brought to my attention that a more apt analogy would be Zoro switching his three katana for three spears or three axes. In such a situation, we would all likely agree that Zoro's combat abilities were severely limited. @Garp the Fist made a comparison to how Zoro was severely hindered at the Davy Back fight when he had to fight without his swords and was limited to Mutoryu.
Do you guys agree that the above is an accurate representation of your argument? It's important that we are discussing the same argument. If you feel I have accurately represented the argument, then you can proceed (if not, let me know in a below reply and I'll update this section to incorporate your feedback).
Reasons for Skepticism
The argument presented above sounds prima facie reasonable and seems appealing. After all, someone forced to use a fighting style they are completely unused to would be unable to demonstrate anywhere near the fullness of their combat abilities, and there are substantial differences between the weapons Killer used. It is because of this prima facie case that I find this argument to be credible. However on closer examination, the argument doesn't hold up as well as I initially thought. We can treat the argument as an hypothesis (one that would purportedly explain Killer's performance in his duel with Zoro). Good hypotheses should make testable predictions. What predictions would this hypothesis have made? Or, what would you expect if this argument was true?
Well, a general (without contextualising to the world of One Piece) prediction would be that Killer would perform substantially worse with the scythes than his mechanical sickles. Since the Kamazou duel, we haven't really had the chance to see Killer have full fledged encounters with his sickles so we can't evaluate this very well. Fortunately, because this is One Piece, there are other things one would expect:
Killer Would Have Demonstrated Difficulty or Unease in Using His New Weapons
Well, a general (without contextualising to the world of One Piece) prediction would be that Killer would perform substantially worse with the scythes than his mechanical sickles. Since the Kamazou duel, we haven't really had the chance to see Killer have full fledged encounters with his sickles so we can't evaluate this very well. Fortunately, because this is One Piece, there are other things one would expect:
- Killer would have demonstrated difficulty or unease in using his new weapons.
- We would have been told that Killer's combat ability was not at its best.
Killer Would Have Demonstrated Difficulty or Unease in Using His New Weapons
This is simply based on the common sense reasoning that if Killer was indeed unskilled with his new weapons, there would be some indication of it. He would not be able to perform very adeptly with his new weapons. Let's make the comparison to Zoro using three spears or three scythes, he'd be able to fight somewhat, but his attacks would not be as skillful and he wouldn't be as adept in close quarters combat as if he was using three katana.
I think this is clearly not true for Killer. Killer was able to have a long and extended CQC clash with Zoro:
After Zoro started taking the fight seriously, the confrontation was largely off paneled and significant amounts of time is implied to have elapsed:
To get back to the Zoro with spears analogy, no, a Zoro with spears could not keep up with Kyoshiro, neither could a Zoro with axes, and definitely not a no sword Zoro. If Zoro was forced to have an extended CQC encounter with weapons he was so unfamiliar with, he wouldn't be able to perform anywhere near as good as what Killer demonstrated. Furthermore, his unfamiliarity and unskillfulness with the weapons would have been highlighted.
Not only is there no visible indication that Killer was unfamiliar with, unskilled in the use of, or otherwise unable to deploy the fullness of his abilities through the scythes, Killer actually performed very well with them. If before the entire Kamazou encounter I was told Killer fought on par with Nitoryu Zoro, I wouldn't have been surprised. That's better portrayal than what Hawkins received:
Hawkins is a supernova captain and one that has been hyped above some of the other supernova (including Killer):
There's not really much reason to place Hawkins below Killer, let alone so far below him that a significantly restrained Killer is superior to Hawkins.
I don't really expect Killer to perform significantly better than the level indicated by someone who can keep up with Kyoshiro in CQC. Yes, Zoro did eventually oneshot Killer, but the manner in which that happened had nothing to do with Killer's weapons. His mechanical sickles wouldn't have raised his endurance or enable him land his counterattack before Zoro, nor would it have let him react faster to Zoro's Rengoku Onigiri (in short, Killer's mechanical scythes wouldn't have prevented Zoro from blitzing and oneshotting him). Or in other words, the reasons for Killer's eventual defeat had nothing to do with the weapons he used and everything to do with Zoro gaining a third sword. Oda is insistent on depicting three sword Zoro as being of a higher caliber than two sword Zoro:
I think this is clearly not true for Killer. Killer was able to have a long and extended CQC clash with Zoro:
After Zoro started taking the fight seriously, the confrontation was largely off paneled and significant amounts of time is implied to have elapsed:
To get back to the Zoro with spears analogy, no, a Zoro with spears could not keep up with Kyoshiro, neither could a Zoro with axes, and definitely not a no sword Zoro. If Zoro was forced to have an extended CQC encounter with weapons he was so unfamiliar with, he wouldn't be able to perform anywhere near as good as what Killer demonstrated. Furthermore, his unfamiliarity and unskillfulness with the weapons would have been highlighted.
Not only is there no visible indication that Killer was unfamiliar with, unskilled in the use of, or otherwise unable to deploy the fullness of his abilities through the scythes, Killer actually performed very well with them. If before the entire Kamazou encounter I was told Killer fought on par with Nitoryu Zoro, I wouldn't have been surprised. That's better portrayal than what Hawkins received:
Hawkins is a supernova captain and one that has been hyped above some of the other supernova (including Killer):
There's not really much reason to place Hawkins below Killer, let alone so far below him that a significantly restrained Killer is superior to Hawkins.
I don't really expect Killer to perform significantly better than the level indicated by someone who can keep up with Kyoshiro in CQC. Yes, Zoro did eventually oneshot Killer, but the manner in which that happened had nothing to do with Killer's weapons. His mechanical sickles wouldn't have raised his endurance or enable him land his counterattack before Zoro, nor would it have let him react faster to Zoro's Rengoku Onigiri (in short, Killer's mechanical scythes wouldn't have prevented Zoro from blitzing and oneshotting him). Or in other words, the reasons for Killer's eventual defeat had nothing to do with the weapons he used and everything to do with Zoro gaining a third sword. Oda is insistent on depicting three sword Zoro as being of a higher caliber than two sword Zoro:
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But Kid couldn't do it in a 3 vs 1 against Apoo with a free shot while apoo was dealing with luffy and zoro and not giving them the chance to counter attack
Stop bringing up Kidd. Focus on Zoro. You Zoro fans go around spreading this bs that “Zoro beat Apoo” when it’s false. He sneaked him 2 v 1 and Apoo got up the next chapter
We’ve already been over this shit in the Zoro vs Kidd thread man, don’t start it again.
Killer did the same with the stab wound.
Oh wow zoro manage to defeat an already injured apoo with a surprise attack who was in confrontation against x-drake who by the way was dominanting the fight. To make matters worse he was not completely down so in other words it was x-drake that defeated apoo all zoro manage to do is get the antidote from him while apoo was distracted it's not remarkable of a feat.
Oh wow zoro manage to defeat an already injured apoo with a surprise attack who was in confrontation against x-drake who by the way was dominanting the fight. To make matters worse he was not completely down so in other words it was x-drake that defeated apoo all zoro manage to do is get the antidote from him while apoo was distracted it's not remarkable of a feat.
You should be thanking Kidd. Your boy was about to get trashed by Apoo’s ultimate attack before Kidd came in there and saved him
Stop bringing up Kidd. Focus on Zoro. You Zoro fans go around spreading this bs that “Zoro beat Apoo” when it’s false. He sneaked him 2 v 1 and Apoo got up the next chapter
We’ve already been over this shit in the Zoro vs Kidd thread man, don’t start it again.
Stop bringing up Kidd. Focus on Zoro. You Zoro fans go around spreading this bs that “Zoro beat Apoo” when it’s false. He sneaked him 2 v 1 and Apoo got up the next chapter
We’ve already been over this shit in the Zoro vs Kidd thread man, don’t start it again.
kid sneaked apoo and some of u are trying to use mental gymnastics to say it isn't a cheap shot in a 3 vs 1 and with a named attack and he still couldn't even make him down for 10 sec and i brought panels to destroy ur claims while u use headcanons all over your arguments even @Nidai_Kitetsu exposed kid stans bs
3 vs 1 kid did nothing
2 vs 1 apoo was shaking and painting and out for a moments with gody treatment
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i exposed ur bs now u are switching to another topic
and kid got slashed after that he couldn't even save himself how would he save other members
kid sneaked apoo and some of u are trying to use mental gymnastics to say it isn't a cheap shot in a 3 vs 1 and with a named attack and he still couldn't even make him down for 10 sec and i brought panels to destroy ur claims while u use headcanons all over your arguments even @Nidai_Kitetsu exposed kid stans bs
3 vs 1 kid did nothing
2 vs 1 apoo was shaking and painting and out for a moments with gody treatment
kid sneaked apoo and some of u are trying to use mental gymnastics to say it isn't a cheap shot in a 3 vs 1 and with a named attack and he still couldn't even make him down for 10 sec and i brought panels to destroy ur claims while u use headcanons all over your arguments even @Nidai_Kitetsu exposed kid stans bs
3 vs 1 kid did nothing
2 vs 1 apoo was shaking and painting and out for a moments with gody treatment
You should be thanking Kidd. Your boy was about to get trashed by Apoo’s ultimate attack before Kidd came in there and saved him
Stop bringing up Kidd. Focus on Zoro. You Zoro fans go around spreading this bs that “Zoro beat Apoo” when it’s false. He sneaked him 2 v 1 and Apoo got up the next chapter
We’ve already been over this shit in the Zoro vs Kidd thread man, don’t start it again.
Stop bringing up Kidd. Focus on Zoro. You Zoro fans go around spreading this bs that “Zoro beat Apoo” when it’s false. He sneaked him 2 v 1 and Apoo got up the next chapter
We’ve already been over this shit in the Zoro vs Kidd thread man, don’t start it again.
ungrateful and he couldn't even bring him down and kid has to thank luffy because he couldn't even deal with a fucking arrow from a gifter
is that a sweat in his face in the last panel
is that a sweat in his face in the last panel
Still waiting for Zoro to thank Kidd though
