No more games. No more trolling, or tricking people to question themselves and doubt what they already know. Let's just put the serious mode gloves on and just say it how it is.
Some of you guys are getting caught up in a silly discussion and ego tripping culture needlessly. So I am going to drop two big points on haki, and really just point out the obvious that I know you all already know deep inside.
Point One: People have private, personal, individual definitions of "Adv CoC" because Oda lacks clarity and consistency
So I will start with this: "Adv CoC attacks". What do people even mean by this? This is the first problem most of you are making. You're acting as if everyone who uses these terms has some universal definition and agreement as if there was a worldwide One Piece dictionary. Obviously they don't. Not everyone who is using this term "Adv CoC" means "They're not even touching" Roger vs. Whitebeard haki clash. How can I know this? Simple. If they all meant that, why do they contest to interpretation of a panel like G5 Luffy and Lucci bumping fists when it is obvious that they are indeed touching?
In case you don't understand what I am implying, let's call back a passage from quite some time ago - and you're going to see that this really is an actual problem Oda created for himself. Remember this? Take a close look and an even closer reading.
Now let me be clear. I myself, when I hear "Adv CoC" I am thinking about the "They're not even touching", "The heavens have split" kind - the same one Kaidou used to one shot G4 Luffy. But apparently, some people mean this.
Now, if you're one of the ones that think like I do - and you're like "Why do they think this way? Luffy - Lucci punch is adv. coc?" Well, look at this panel and you see the problem.
This was the same thing going on in the Luffy-Chinjao clash.
We all either forget it, take it for granted or in some other cases (other cases being the "Omg Oda is the best writer evar!1! agenda) pretend Oda wrote the Haki concept with perfect clarity, and perfectly consistent with perfect foreknowledge.
But that was never the case.
Luffy-Lucci, Luffy-Chinjao, Luffy Doflamingo - all the same.
Because apparently, when CoA users who are also CoC users clash with CoA, their CoC can stream into the CoA coated physical attack without the "They're not even touching" thing going on. To make matters worse, it is not always apparent that that they are just using a willful exertion of that "knock out of the fodder" version while simultaneously punching with CoA per se and yet at the same time it seems that it is consciously exerted conqueror haki, not unconscious like when Luffy screamed in Marineford. You might think that was the case - that it was just the fodder knock out version- because of the Don Chijao clash. However, if you remember, when it happened with Doflamingo there were no fodders "falling unconscious" at all, though I guess some some will say that was just because no fodders were close enough.
What's the relevancy of all that? Well its everything. If fodders falling unconscious is not the implied purposes of those "CoC CoA" haki clashes (Chinjao, Doflamingo, Lucci) then it implies instead that the CoC is somehow augmenting the CoA and affecting the overall attack power, not simply knocking fodders out and that Luffy has been using CoC to augment CoA attack power since Don Chinjao days. In which case, the big difference is the ability to do "internal destruction" versions of both CoA and CoC, and it would stand to be the case that the most suprmeme knock out power for top tiers is all about internal damage attacks.
So apparently some of the guys, when they say "Adv CoC" they mean this, like in that Doflamingo panel I just linked. Thus when the G5 Luffy-Lucci punch panel comes, they can say "dude its adv coc" no problem, because that is their own personal definition they are using. And those of you that differ for that "they're not touching" version only are wasting your time arguing with them, because you both have a different world view for the same exact word. (In this case, "Adv. CoC".
And you should be seeing the problem now. In fact, probably - as with most of you I am sure - you already knew the problem, and at best needed someone like me to simply remind you that you are intelligent, and you do know exactly what is going on.
But I will reiterate the obvious with my second point.
Point Two: Oda did not have a set consistent concept for haki from day one. He obviously changed his opinion on what he would display, changed it again and then reiterated old concepts he scrapped later on again
So, I am going to take you back again, because you need it. You need it because you've got all these dudes playing dumb and trying to troll you into doubting yourself, but you the reader, already know all these things and don't need to be reeducated by some silly narcissist, you just need to be reminded that you're just as smart as you think. And me- I'm happy to be the guy to remind you.
Let me take you back.
First, remember that Rayleigh stopping Kizaru's kick.
No black lightning. No orb. In fact, we don't even know if this is CoA or CoC. Some will say "It's not touching". And guess what? You can't know if it is even touching or not here because the way it is drawn as this stupid shockwave effect. And the only reason we're having the "not touching" discussion is because we're reading in a concept that was not even talked about until Rayleigh had a discussion with Luffy on the training island into a panel that predates it. That is not all, some are reading the "They're not touching" concept of Roger vs. Whitebeard into this above panel with Rayleigh when, obviously, its different, it looks different and regardless of what type of haki it is no one can argue that Oda already had it all figured out and perfectly planned out.
But, that's not all. We have the Summit War.
Marco left us no shortage of examples.
I am not going to bother posting them all here, or linking them all, but I challenge you - go pull up the mange chapters (NOT ANIME, JUST THE MANGA) for the Marco fights.
Marco kicking Kizaru, Marco kicking aokiji, Marco clashing with Akainu.
Before I can even comment on the depictions of the haki, let's first agree that they were indeed using haki.
Here's a word from big man Akainu himself:
"How irritating!!", "Haki Users, huh...?"
There are some people who are going to say when Marco kicks Kizaru, and when Marco kicks Aokiji that he wasn't using haki. Think about that logically. Akainu confirms, in the very least that he used haki on him. If he used haki on Akainu- why not on Kizaru, why not on Aokiji?
Well, they were tangible to him, so it should be obvious that he used it. This is the case, yet some will debate - why? Well, we're dealing with ODA WORSHIPPERS.
The silly and childish "Oda is Goda" agenda guys. They are the only ones that would even argue this, and why do they argue it? Because if Marco is using haki here, then it is obvious that their silly false god Oda was fumbling and bumbling his way through his own haki concept development while the manga chapters were being serialized, and therefore Oda is not quite godlike as they thought. And that is exactly what some of them are trying to imply - that Oda, like Aizen "had it all planned out". Though that analogy fails too because Aizen clearly lost to Ichigo, which wasn't too impressive on his planning, but even still Oda is no Aizen and the comparison fails because its simply 100 years too early for Oda to be portrayed as thinking that far ahead.
So yes, Marco used haki. Let's not debate it.
Now, I challenge you. Look at Marco hitting Kizaru, and Marco hitting Aokiji.
When you finally find those chapters and panels, notice what is not there.
Is there black lightning? Nooo! Are there "They're not touching orbs"? Nooo. Are there black coloured limbs and fists from the post-ts CoA coloring concept? Noooo.
No, none of that appears at all. Instead you get, at best weird effects like when you punch someone in super smash brothers, and sometimes those same effects are clearly used on non-haki physical attacks back in the days, for example when Luffy had not even fought Crocodile yet -as far as I remember.
Oda had no idea.
But this is not all. The confusion does not end here.
Take a look at POST-TS Luffy knocking out the Pacifista.
Touching or not-touching haki? What do you think?
So first, obviously there is a little controversy and debate. It's jet pistol. It's an attack so fast, that even if you can't see the fist does not mean they "did not touch".
Sure I will concede that point. Fair enough. Still just look at this thing. Does it look like Luffy is touching him, or does it not look, rather like Luffy's punch had an invisible barrier and smacked the Pacifista with that invisible barrier thus "not even touching" him? Remember, when this chapter was fresh the best we had to work with was the blocking defensive version of haki shown by Sentomaru and the 3 Admirals, and Rayleigh - so obviously for most of us when we visualized what a CoA powered attack looks like, we figured that the invisible barrier was being smashed into the opponent. And that makes perfect sense. Why?
Black colored fists did not even exist yet. That's your problem with that form for "haki".
Is this attack, where Luffy hits a Pacifista CoA, or is it CoC, or is it CoA+CoC? You have no friggin clue. Don't pretend to.
What we do see is that there were some sparks, hinting to Oda developing this lightning concept. The sparks were not black yet, they were clear looking. Then there's an impact shockwave with the lightning.
Then later, as I recall in Fishman island, Oda pulls out the black colored fists and feet, and also the added mess (simultaneously beautiful, awesome and yet brain cell destroying) that was Red Hawk.
Then, you get the Black Lightning, the Chinjao thing, and only, much, much, much later....
"They're not even touching!"
And yet long before we got there, numerous panels both mentioning and hinting to characters putting CoC into their attacks long before it was post Roger-Whitebeard clash Oda-kosher, per se - as you can see in that one with Doflamingo.
Also, Luffy vs. Lucci has an added element to make it even more confusing.
Lucci gets hit by a punch and says "What the hell? My consciousness is fading."
And the people who only were focused on CoC haki's attribute demonstrated by Kaido (having more knock out power) were immediately all over this "Luffy punched Lucci with CoC and it almost one shotted him" - that was their agenda.
Those few smart ones, however, pointed out an important detail they overlooked. When Luffy hit Lucci back in water 7 with Gigant Pistol, Lucci said something almost identical. That means, "My consciousness is fading" is very likely a kickback, or an homage.
Ok, no problem. But then, regardless of that homage - was that punch from G5 CoC, or CoA, or both? If its CoC, was it this version where they touch, or was it "They're not even touching!" - because if its not that internal destruction version, then yes, Luffy was not even going "all out".
But then, later Luffy says "I always go all out" and all the agenda-people, especially the Zoro ones who feel threatened by Luffy were all over that, as if they were a religious folk like a "Sola Scriptura" Christian quoting the Bible - only with One Piece manga, and either the agenda or idol as the deity worshipped - but whatever.
Let it be said. That punch? If you don't see a clear barrier and distance between the fist and the target, you cannot even say it's this "they're not even touching version".
And what do we see? Toon force punch, Lucci's body turning into rubber and we have no friggin clue what's going on.
We don't even know what that punch was, if it was even the "not touching CoC" or not.
Do you guys see the problem?
It's silly. I get that disgruntled agenda fans, maybe Zoro and Admiral are going to grab on to panels. I don't care what character you get behind, that's not the issue.
But if you are claiming that haki is consistent and a well-drawn concept, that its so obvious what is going on only because it serves your fandom agenda, you are being really incredibly silly. If Oda lets down Luffy with this concept, then at some point your fan favorite will be failed by it as well don't you think?
Though to be honest, in my opinion, I don't even care what character this makes look good or bad.
I am just stating the obvious.
This haki stuff is a big mess, Oda did NOT have it all planned out, the people hyping Oda as if he's this perfect writer with infinite foreknowledge are in a delusion and deserve a slap. The concept seems to have been redrawn, modified and developed over time while the chapters with haki were already released. Most likely, concepts were explored within released chapters. were ditched in others, and then explored again later when Oda thought it out more later.
We don't know if it was all Oda, if it was pressure from editors, or whoever. Haki Piece sucks.
Just to add one thing here, if any of these links or images are funky in any way, I apologize. I was literally just google searching for images and grabbing on to whatever manga website or image link seemed to work. I didn't really think out the image link sources all that much.
Some of you guys are getting caught up in a silly discussion and ego tripping culture needlessly. So I am going to drop two big points on haki, and really just point out the obvious that I know you all already know deep inside.
Point One: People have private, personal, individual definitions of "Adv CoC" because Oda lacks clarity and consistency
So I will start with this: "Adv CoC attacks". What do people even mean by this? This is the first problem most of you are making. You're acting as if everyone who uses these terms has some universal definition and agreement as if there was a worldwide One Piece dictionary. Obviously they don't. Not everyone who is using this term "Adv CoC" means "They're not even touching" Roger vs. Whitebeard haki clash. How can I know this? Simple. If they all meant that, why do they contest to interpretation of a panel like G5 Luffy and Lucci bumping fists when it is obvious that they are indeed touching?
In case you don't understand what I am implying, let's call back a passage from quite some time ago - and you're going to see that this really is an actual problem Oda created for himself. Remember this? Take a close look and an even closer reading.
Now let me be clear. I myself, when I hear "Adv CoC" I am thinking about the "They're not even touching", "The heavens have split" kind - the same one Kaidou used to one shot G4 Luffy. But apparently, some people mean this.
Now, if you're one of the ones that think like I do - and you're like "Why do they think this way? Luffy - Lucci punch is adv. coc?" Well, look at this panel and you see the problem.
This was the same thing going on in the Luffy-Chinjao clash.
We all either forget it, take it for granted or in some other cases (other cases being the "Omg Oda is the best writer evar!1! agenda) pretend Oda wrote the Haki concept with perfect clarity, and perfectly consistent with perfect foreknowledge.
But that was never the case.
Luffy-Lucci, Luffy-Chinjao, Luffy Doflamingo - all the same.
Because apparently, when CoA users who are also CoC users clash with CoA, their CoC can stream into the CoA coated physical attack without the "They're not even touching" thing going on. To make matters worse, it is not always apparent that that they are just using a willful exertion of that "knock out of the fodder" version while simultaneously punching with CoA per se and yet at the same time it seems that it is consciously exerted conqueror haki, not unconscious like when Luffy screamed in Marineford. You might think that was the case - that it was just the fodder knock out version- because of the Don Chijao clash. However, if you remember, when it happened with Doflamingo there were no fodders "falling unconscious" at all, though I guess some some will say that was just because no fodders were close enough.
What's the relevancy of all that? Well its everything. If fodders falling unconscious is not the implied purposes of those "CoC CoA" haki clashes (Chinjao, Doflamingo, Lucci) then it implies instead that the CoC is somehow augmenting the CoA and affecting the overall attack power, not simply knocking fodders out and that Luffy has been using CoC to augment CoA attack power since Don Chinjao days. In which case, the big difference is the ability to do "internal destruction" versions of both CoA and CoC, and it would stand to be the case that the most suprmeme knock out power for top tiers is all about internal damage attacks.
So apparently some of the guys, when they say "Adv CoC" they mean this, like in that Doflamingo panel I just linked. Thus when the G5 Luffy-Lucci punch panel comes, they can say "dude its adv coc" no problem, because that is their own personal definition they are using. And those of you that differ for that "they're not touching" version only are wasting your time arguing with them, because you both have a different world view for the same exact word. (In this case, "Adv. CoC".
And you should be seeing the problem now. In fact, probably - as with most of you I am sure - you already knew the problem, and at best needed someone like me to simply remind you that you are intelligent, and you do know exactly what is going on.
But I will reiterate the obvious with my second point.
Point Two: Oda did not have a set consistent concept for haki from day one. He obviously changed his opinion on what he would display, changed it again and then reiterated old concepts he scrapped later on again
So, I am going to take you back again, because you need it. You need it because you've got all these dudes playing dumb and trying to troll you into doubting yourself, but you the reader, already know all these things and don't need to be reeducated by some silly narcissist, you just need to be reminded that you're just as smart as you think. And me- I'm happy to be the guy to remind you.
Let me take you back.
First, remember that Rayleigh stopping Kizaru's kick.
No black lightning. No orb. In fact, we don't even know if this is CoA or CoC. Some will say "It's not touching". And guess what? You can't know if it is even touching or not here because the way it is drawn as this stupid shockwave effect. And the only reason we're having the "not touching" discussion is because we're reading in a concept that was not even talked about until Rayleigh had a discussion with Luffy on the training island into a panel that predates it. That is not all, some are reading the "They're not touching" concept of Roger vs. Whitebeard into this above panel with Rayleigh when, obviously, its different, it looks different and regardless of what type of haki it is no one can argue that Oda already had it all figured out and perfectly planned out.
But, that's not all. We have the Summit War.
Marco left us no shortage of examples.
I am not going to bother posting them all here, or linking them all, but I challenge you - go pull up the mange chapters (NOT ANIME, JUST THE MANGA) for the Marco fights.
Marco kicking Kizaru, Marco kicking aokiji, Marco clashing with Akainu.
Before I can even comment on the depictions of the haki, let's first agree that they were indeed using haki.
Here's a word from big man Akainu himself:
"How irritating!!", "Haki Users, huh...?"
There are some people who are going to say when Marco kicks Kizaru, and when Marco kicks Aokiji that he wasn't using haki. Think about that logically. Akainu confirms, in the very least that he used haki on him. If he used haki on Akainu- why not on Kizaru, why not on Aokiji?
Well, they were tangible to him, so it should be obvious that he used it. This is the case, yet some will debate - why? Well, we're dealing with ODA WORSHIPPERS.
The silly and childish "Oda is Goda" agenda guys. They are the only ones that would even argue this, and why do they argue it? Because if Marco is using haki here, then it is obvious that their silly false god Oda was fumbling and bumbling his way through his own haki concept development while the manga chapters were being serialized, and therefore Oda is not quite godlike as they thought. And that is exactly what some of them are trying to imply - that Oda, like Aizen "had it all planned out". Though that analogy fails too because Aizen clearly lost to Ichigo, which wasn't too impressive on his planning, but even still Oda is no Aizen and the comparison fails because its simply 100 years too early for Oda to be portrayed as thinking that far ahead.
So yes, Marco used haki. Let's not debate it.
Now, I challenge you. Look at Marco hitting Kizaru, and Marco hitting Aokiji.
When you finally find those chapters and panels, notice what is not there.
Is there black lightning? Nooo! Are there "They're not touching orbs"? Nooo. Are there black coloured limbs and fists from the post-ts CoA coloring concept? Noooo.
No, none of that appears at all. Instead you get, at best weird effects like when you punch someone in super smash brothers, and sometimes those same effects are clearly used on non-haki physical attacks back in the days, for example when Luffy had not even fought Crocodile yet -as far as I remember.
Oda had no idea.
But this is not all. The confusion does not end here.
Take a look at POST-TS Luffy knocking out the Pacifista.
Touching or not-touching haki? What do you think?
So first, obviously there is a little controversy and debate. It's jet pistol. It's an attack so fast, that even if you can't see the fist does not mean they "did not touch".
Sure I will concede that point. Fair enough. Still just look at this thing. Does it look like Luffy is touching him, or does it not look, rather like Luffy's punch had an invisible barrier and smacked the Pacifista with that invisible barrier thus "not even touching" him? Remember, when this chapter was fresh the best we had to work with was the blocking defensive version of haki shown by Sentomaru and the 3 Admirals, and Rayleigh - so obviously for most of us when we visualized what a CoA powered attack looks like, we figured that the invisible barrier was being smashed into the opponent. And that makes perfect sense. Why?
Black colored fists did not even exist yet. That's your problem with that form for "haki".
Is this attack, where Luffy hits a Pacifista CoA, or is it CoC, or is it CoA+CoC? You have no friggin clue. Don't pretend to.
What we do see is that there were some sparks, hinting to Oda developing this lightning concept. The sparks were not black yet, they were clear looking. Then there's an impact shockwave with the lightning.
Then later, as I recall in Fishman island, Oda pulls out the black colored fists and feet, and also the added mess (simultaneously beautiful, awesome and yet brain cell destroying) that was Red Hawk.
Then, you get the Black Lightning, the Chinjao thing, and only, much, much, much later....
"They're not even touching!"
And yet long before we got there, numerous panels both mentioning and hinting to characters putting CoC into their attacks long before it was post Roger-Whitebeard clash Oda-kosher, per se - as you can see in that one with Doflamingo.
Also, Luffy vs. Lucci has an added element to make it even more confusing.
Lucci gets hit by a punch and says "What the hell? My consciousness is fading."
And the people who only were focused on CoC haki's attribute demonstrated by Kaido (having more knock out power) were immediately all over this "Luffy punched Lucci with CoC and it almost one shotted him" - that was their agenda.
Those few smart ones, however, pointed out an important detail they overlooked. When Luffy hit Lucci back in water 7 with Gigant Pistol, Lucci said something almost identical. That means, "My consciousness is fading" is very likely a kickback, or an homage.
Ok, no problem. But then, regardless of that homage - was that punch from G5 CoC, or CoA, or both? If its CoC, was it this version where they touch, or was it "They're not even touching!" - because if its not that internal destruction version, then yes, Luffy was not even going "all out".
But then, later Luffy says "I always go all out" and all the agenda-people, especially the Zoro ones who feel threatened by Luffy were all over that, as if they were a religious folk like a "Sola Scriptura" Christian quoting the Bible - only with One Piece manga, and either the agenda or idol as the deity worshipped - but whatever.
Let it be said. That punch? If you don't see a clear barrier and distance between the fist and the target, you cannot even say it's this "they're not even touching version".
And what do we see? Toon force punch, Lucci's body turning into rubber and we have no friggin clue what's going on.
We don't even know what that punch was, if it was even the "not touching CoC" or not.
Do you guys see the problem?
It's silly. I get that disgruntled agenda fans, maybe Zoro and Admiral are going to grab on to panels. I don't care what character you get behind, that's not the issue.
But if you are claiming that haki is consistent and a well-drawn concept, that its so obvious what is going on only because it serves your fandom agenda, you are being really incredibly silly. If Oda lets down Luffy with this concept, then at some point your fan favorite will be failed by it as well don't you think?
Though to be honest, in my opinion, I don't even care what character this makes look good or bad.
I am just stating the obvious.
This haki stuff is a big mess, Oda did NOT have it all planned out, the people hyping Oda as if he's this perfect writer with infinite foreknowledge are in a delusion and deserve a slap. The concept seems to have been redrawn, modified and developed over time while the chapters with haki were already released. Most likely, concepts were explored within released chapters. were ditched in others, and then explored again later when Oda thought it out more later.
We don't know if it was all Oda, if it was pressure from editors, or whoever. Haki Piece sucks.
Post automatically merged:
Just to add one thing here, if any of these links or images are funky in any way, I apologize. I was literally just google searching for images and grabbing on to whatever manga website or image link seemed to work. I didn't really think out the image link sources all that much.
