Powers & Abilities An Explanation of The Deal With Enma

[Kuro Ashi]

Yeah, but that’s not a good thing. That’s what we keep trying to point out to you. In a real fight, that’s suicide, it’s why no one does it.


That is not what Enma does. Enma can only make Zoro use Haki that he has at his disposal. It cannot make an attack stronger.

If Zoro was to use an attack, with everything he had, using Enma, or using Shusui, the two attacks would be just as strong. Because Enma does not give Zoro more Haki than he possesses.



Because you don’t understand what Enma actually does and how it works, and the way you are phrasing everything makes it seem like it’s the sword that is doing all the work, and not something that is coming naturally from Zoro.

It puts all of that Haki right into the blade. Zoro can juggle with the amount, given enough mastery, but it shows that it can definitely put way more than he did in the past with his other blades.

After the Haki is in the blade, it's up to Zoro to make use of it.

Yes, the difference is only that Shusui or any other blade we've seen so far doesn't help Zoro draw that much Haki at once.

It can be a suicide. That's what i'm trying to point out to you, it's a give and take. The way G4 was very risky, so starting a fight in G4 could be suicide if you end up depleted in minutes. It's a tool, and it can help Zoro when used properly.

It's Zoro's merit that he can survive Enma drawing so much Haki. It's Zoro's merit that he has so much Haki to begin with. It's Zoro's merit that he can train to restrain Enma at will. The list can go on with "it's Zoro's merit", there's absolutely no reason to push so heavily against Enma being useful in a certain way beside training. That's just being overly insecure in regards to this whole power up discussion.

 

[Garp the Fist]

@Kuro Ashi I think what you’re envisaging is like Zoro using Enma in some last gasp attack where he allows the sword to take all of his haki so as to use some sort of super move.

Which would be cool, i suppose

But it’s not what mastering Enma is meant to be about. It’s about stopping Enma from stealing it all, and being able to fight normally with it. That’s why we never saw Oden try and do something like a super Haki absorber move when he was fighting Kaido.

Post automatically merged: Jan 17, 2021

That's just being overly insecure in regards to this whole power up discussion.

There’s no insecurity ffs, people just think you’re wrong

 

[HA001]

@Kuro Ashi I think what you’re envisaging is like Zoro using Enma in some last gasp attack where he allows the sword to take all of his haki so as to use some sort of super move.

Which would be cool, i suppose

But it’s not what mastering Enma is meant to be about. It’s about stopping Enma from stealing it all, and being able to fight normally with it. That’s why we never saw Oden try and do something like a super Haki absorber move when he was fighting Kaido.

Post automatically merged: Jan 17, 2021

There’s no insecurity ffs, people just think you’re wrong

Lmfao thats exactly what they used to say oden did to cut kaido before 970. Good times.

 

[Kuro Ashi]

@Kuro Ashi I think what you’re envisaging is like Zoro using Enma in some last gasp attack where he allows the sword to take all of his haki so as to use some sort of super move.

Which would be cool, i suppose

But it’s not what mastering Enma is meant to be about. It’s about stopping Enma from stealing it all, and being able to fight normally with it. That’s why we never saw Oden try and do something like a super Haki absorber move when he was fighting Kaido.

It can be that as well. It can be some inbetween as well, where Zoro puts more, but not his all so that he's not left drain in one shot.

The training is about regulating how much Haki Enma can make use of. To keep the blade under control. After you have control, you have options in regards to what you're going to do with it.

We didn't really see Oden on the back foot vs Kaido. He was clearly stronger when they first met according to Kaido, and he was the one who injured Kaido before the hostage situation in the second encounter. Also we don't know how much Haki he was feeding into Enma, except that it was not quite so much that it would drasticaly drain him.

Like i said, with enough mastery you can regulate how much you "Unleash Enma".

Post automatically merged: Jan 17, 2021

There’s no insecurity ffs, people just think you’re wrong

People are also very sensitive when discussing the notion of a power up when it comes to Zoro, and some have ptsd about magic swords when discussing this topic. Maybe it's not insecurity, but there's definitely a form of bias preventing some from keeping an open mind about this discussion.

 

[Garp the Fist]

The training is about regulating how much Haki Enma can make use of. To keep the blade under control. After you have control, you have options in regards to what you're going to do with it.

Exactly- which makes the sword no different from any other once it’s mastered. If Zoro can choose how much Haki he can put into Enma... then it’s no different from his others swords, which he can also choose how much haki to put into.

 

[Kuro Ashi]

Exactly- which makes the sword no different from any other once it’s mastered. If Zoro can choose how much Haki he can put into Enma... then it’s no different from his others swords, which he can also choose how much haki to put into.

So your stance is that Enma becomes basically the worst blade of it's grade for Zoro, since it was not highlited to be exceptional in any other way, the way his other blades were each in certain regard after obtained.

The one trait it has, you think will be of no relevance, but arguably a downside since it would take from Zoro's focus to keep it in check more than his other blades.

You think that him being able to hold his Haki from Enma, will translate to him being able to force the same amount of Haki out without Enma, and he will be able to pull that with any blade and drain himself out by his own choice.

To me this seems like the type of argument that starts with the premise "i really don't want Enma to be a power up", and then you worked it around that, trying to make it as less special as possible. Maybe i'm wrong, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and leave it at that.

Do you think there's even any point he keeps Enma now that the training is done ? It certainly doesn't sound like the type of blade that should be part of his final lineup as you describe it.

 

[Sword God Ryuma]

So your stance is that Enma becomes basically the worst blade of it's grade for Zoro, since it was not highlited to be exceptional in any other way, the way his other blades were each in certain regard after obtained.

The one trait it has, you think will be of no relevance, but arguably a downside since it would take from Zoro's focus to keep it in check more than his other blades.

You think that him being able to hold his Haki from Enma, will translate to him being able to force the same amount of Haki out without Enma, and he will be able to pull that with any blade and drain himself out by his own choice.

To me this seems like the type of argument that starts with the premise "i really don't want Enma to be a power up", and then you worked it around that, trying to make it as less special as possible. Maybe i'm wrong, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and leave it at that.

Do you think there's even any point he keeps Enma now that the training is done ? It certainly doesn't sound like the type of blade that should be part of his final lineup as you describe it.

Enma has more potential than Shisui. Thats whats special about it.

 

[Fleet Leader Fenaker]

- Honestly i can confirm some ppl didn't read One piece but two pieces lmao .

what does enma do ?

Slicing more than needed isn't it ? Zoro wants to cut a tree he cut a coastline and again using Zoro's Ryou .

Spoiler

- Whereas Zoro's master Koshiro said the pinnacle of swordmanship is the power to protect what one wishes to protect ; and cut what one wishes to cut .

Zoro wanted to cut a tree but enma cut a coastline is that the pinnacle of swordmanship ?

Spoiler

 

[Geo]

Yes because of everybody reaction, Kaido statement.

But that is an appeal to majority which doesn't make it factual.
Kaido's statement also doesn't indicate that they used Ryou. It is important to note that Kaido is still able to feel force even if he doesn't take damage.
He also compliments Law Kidd and Luffy who also failed to damage him

Post automatically merged: Jan 17, 2021

He did because he harmed him but your point stands regardless.

His Kong Gun didn't harm Kaido though. Check the panel again

 

[Kuro Ashi]

Enma has more potential than Shisui. Thats whats special about it.

That's a good point. I guess it can be a "generic" blade of superior grade blade once turned black.

Thing with Zoro's other swords when he got them were that one was crazy sharp and hard to handle, other was crazy heavy and unleasing a lot of power but hard to handle.

Zoro managed to handle and master them, but no sword loses it's difficult to handle initially trait and doesn't turn it into an advantage afterwards.

Shusui remains a heavier and more durable blade with all the advantages once mastered.

You're arguing that Enma's is the only blade that once it's "quirk" is mastered, it's not turned into a specific advantage.

 

[Garp the Fist]

So your stance is that Enma becomes basically the worst blade of it's grade for Zoro, since it was not highlited to be exceptional in any other way, the way his other blades were each in certain regard after obtained.

It would be the exact same as Wado, and eventually a supreme grade blade, so... no.

 

[Kuro Ashi]

It would be the exact same as Wado, and eventually a supreme grade blade, so... no.

But see, the Kitetsu was too sharp and Shusui was too heavy but very durable.

Both required training to master, but neither lost their specific trait once mastered and become generic.

You're arguing that Enma is the only blade obtained through out the story that once mastered loses the potential advantage of it's unique trait.

 

[Sword God Ryuma]

That's a good point. I guess it can be a "generic" blade of superior grade blade once turned black.

Thing with Zoro's other swords when he got them were that one was crazy sharp and hard to handle, other was crazy heavy and unleasing a lot of power but hard to handle.

Zoro managed to handle and master them, but no sword loses it's difficult to handle initially trait and doesn't turn it into an advantage afterwards.

Shusui remains a heavier and more durable blade with all the advantages once mastered.

You're arguing that Enma's is the only blade that once it's "quirk" is mastered, it's not turned into a specific advantage.

Ofcourse Mastering a sword is an advantage. Who is denying that. Koshiro literally tells Zoro a Sword that doesn't do what the user want isn't good. Zoro fully making Enma bend to his Will is an advantage.

 

[Kuro Ashi]

Ofcourse Mastering a sword is an advantage. Who is denying that. Koshiro literally tells Zoro a Sword that doesn't do what the user want isn't good. Zoro fully making Enma bend to his Will is an advantage.

Shusui remains more durable and able to produce more raw power due to its weight even when mastered. Its just that you can do that at will, but the sword remains unique as it was initially.

Kitetsu keeps it's sharper blade even when it's user has mastered how to cut with it.

Enma's stick is that it can draw out crazy amount of Haki. But for Enma we want to make a special case, and instead of Enma remaining special the way all his other blades did once mastered, we turn Enma into a generic blade with no special traits when compared to his other ones.

 

[Garp the Fist]

But see, the Kitetsu was too sharp and Shusui was too heavy but very durable.

Both required training to master, but neither lost their specific trait once mastered and become generic.

You're arguing that Enma is the only blade obtained through out the story that once mastered loses the potential advantage of it's unique trait.

No, I’m arguing it will then be unique because it’ll be Zoro’s Supreme Grade sword and a Kokuto that he made by himself

 

[сука]

I don't know anymore. This chapter actually made Enma feel like it really is a "special" sword. Right after his attack against Kaido, Zoro mentions that he needs to unleash Enma more, but what about his other swords? They don't have a drawback like Enma does so Zoro can control how much haki he pours into them, yet he didn't seem surprised that he wasn't able to cut Kaido with Wado and Kitetsu either...

 

[nik87]

I don't know anymore. This chapter actually made Enma feel like it really is a "special" sword. Right after his attack against Kaido, Zoro mentions that he needs to unleash Enma more, but what about his other swords? They don't have a drawback like Enma does so Zoro can control how much haki he pours into them, yet he didn't seem surprised that he wasn't able to cut Kaido with Wado and Kitetsu either...

Exactly... His words dont make any sense. He is singling out Enma while performing Oni Giri - a 3 sword move.
Enma by itself is irrelevant in that context. The only way it would make sense is if he performed 1 sword move.
The only reason he mentioned it, imo, is because Oda wants the fandoms to argue about it, he likes to keep the fire burning.

 

[Kuro Ashi]

No, I’m arguing it will then be unique because it’ll be Zoro’s Supreme Grade sword and a Kokuto that he made by himself

You think it will be the only Supreme Grade sword Zoro has, and the only blade he turns black ?

And it has to lose it's Haki related unique trait while his other blades did not lose their unique traits because ?

Anyway, we probably both said most of what we could say on this topic with the current information. To me it does not make sense to want to take away from Enma's uniqueness and turn it more ordinary, and i find the alternative both makes more sense, and is cooler for Zoro.

Like, i don't see any disadvantage for Zoro if Enma remains special, on the contrary. But whatever, i guess it's not something either of us will change our mind about right now.

Post automatically merged: Jan 17, 2021

Thanks for being a good sport.


@Kuro Ashi I've told you what would convince me that Enma acts to amplify Zoro's AP (if Zoro is excessively drained/depleted/withered/otherwise has haki over use commented on during/after the Kaido fight). What would it take to convince you that Enma essentially functions as training wheels for Zoro's haki?


For the record, at this point in time, I think it's likely that during the Kaido fight Enma would act as an AP amplifier as opposed to just training wheels. This is mostly due to the focus the sword has gotten since its introduction. I would be happy to be proven wrong, but at this point I expect to end up conceding that Enma seems to have enables Zoro deploy more offensive power than he could have with Shusui, so I'm just going to go ahead and concede now; Enma is (probably) a power up.

Sorry, i intended to answer this earlier but got caught up in different replies and forgot about it.

It doesn't take anything special to convince me otherwise, i'm just going to read the arc with an open mind.

If nothing special Haki related happens when it comes to Enma, i'm not going to argue just for the sake of arguing. I'm only saying what makes most sense to me, and will continue to do the same as the story unfolds.

 

[Sword God Ryuma]

I don't know anymore. This chapter actually made Enma feel like it really is a "special" sword. Right after his attack against Kaido, Zoro mentions that he needs to unleash Enma more, but what about his other swords? They don't have a drawback like Enma does so Zoro can control how much haki he pours into them, yet he didn't seem surprised that he wasn't able to cut Kaido with Wado and Kitetsu either...

He cut Kaido

 

[сука]

He cut Kaido

Sorry but any cut shallower than what the scabbards have inflicted is an anti-feat for Zoro in my eyes