Anyone else finds Andrew Tate's downfall absolutely hilarious?
- Thread starter Adam 🍎
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We arrive at the same problem we have already discussed with Ai. You see the society as if it had some essentialist nature.
Evil does NOT exist. Let's repeat that for it to be real clear. Evil is a human concept to help us cope with horrific actions and to distance us from those action. In reality, it doesn't exist.
There is not nature in human that says that there will always be evil action of sorts. We have to stop with those existentialist myth as those are the VERY REASON why we do not evolve as a society.
Bad humans are not naturally evil and good humans and not naturally good. Each one can become either bad or good depending on the environment and differents things. EVERYTHING can evolve. There is no limits to that.
I'm not "'dreaming" about a society, I'm just extending the knowledge we already have on the pre existing society : what works and what doesn't work.
Deshumanizing criminals: doesn't work
Prisons: doesn't work
Life sentences : doesn't work.
Brutality to stop crime : doesn't work.
There is clearly a pattern here: Violence in ANY form, does no work. This is why we must think out of the box.
Will it be hard ? Of course !!! It will take us at least one or two century worth of work to completely tilt down the system. But that's better than saying "it's not worth it, ban men will be bad men".
There are no shortcuts toward utopia.
Evil does NOT exist. Let's repeat that for it to be real clear. Evil is a human concept to help us cope with horrific actions and to distance us from those action. In reality, it doesn't exist.
There is not nature in human that says that there will always be evil action of sorts. We have to stop with those existentialist myth as those are the VERY REASON why we do not evolve as a society.
Bad humans are not naturally evil and good humans and not naturally good. Each one can become either bad or good depending on the environment and differents things. EVERYTHING can evolve. There is no limits to that.
I'm not "'dreaming" about a society, I'm just extending the knowledge we already have on the pre existing society : what works and what doesn't work.
Deshumanizing criminals: doesn't work
Prisons: doesn't work
Life sentences : doesn't work.
Brutality to stop crime : doesn't work.
There is clearly a pattern here: Violence in ANY form, does no work. This is why we must think out of the box.
Will it be hard ? Of course !!! It will take us at least one or two century worth of work to completely tilt down the system. But that's better than saying "it's not worth it, ban men will be bad men".
There are no shortcuts toward utopia.
If evil is just a concept that lets us cope with horrific actions, that logic could be applied to any and all abstract concepts such as Love, Good, Hate, Envy etc.
It doesn't work like that. There are some real evil motherfuckers out there. Way evil-er than any fantasy caricature, movie character etc. Because these guys are real.
It doesn't work like that. There are some real evil motherfuckers out there. Way evil-er than any fantasy caricature, movie character etc. Because these guys are real.
Love is the word we put a a real emotion. Good is like evil, it doesn't exist. Hate is a the description of an action, it's not just a concept to distinguish us from. Envy is the same thing.
No there are not. There are people who do bad things and some who do very horrific things.
Stop essentialising humans. We are not in the middle age anymore.
No there are not. There are people who do bad things and some who do very horrific things.
Stop essentialising humans. We are not in the middle age anymore.
Your statement on the prison system may have some truth to it.
Not every thief, burglar etc is evil to the core. Rehabilitation is proven to yield very good results regarding prognoses on future crimes. Criminals who are sentenced to prison where they get in contact with even worse criminals, join prison gangs to survive etc, only to be released after serving their sentence are more prone to commit further acts of violence and crime.
Yet there should be a limit to what society can accept.
Rapists do not deserve second chances.
The only exception should be made for teenagers in certain cases. Confinement with educational programmes and subsequent tight monitoring are necessary to teach these boys that their views on women are plain wrong. There are cases of young boys who raped a girl and in court they said they saw similar scenes in porn videos and genuinely thought that it's something that women like, because this is what the video suggested.
Adult mass rapists and human traffickers, on the other hand, should receive the same punishment as murderers.
We can't save everyone from their own vileness.
Society has no obligation to cater to individuals who disrespect human life so grossly. The community cannot be asked to have their tax money used on feeding and sheltering such lowlifes.
The money should be used for compensating the victims instead.
That's something our society doesn't get right.
Why do evildoers deserve the right to have insane amounts of money poured into their therapy and rehabilitation and the victims of sexual crimes are left with nothing but their trauma, and every time they're made to give testimony in court they are retraumatised.
Where are million dollars /euros etc of compensation for rape victims who are mentally scarred for life!?
Think about the victims first!
Utopia can't be found in earthly life.
Mate, 'hate' is not an action.
You are confusing it with 'hate crime'.
Not every thief, burglar etc is evil to the core. Rehabilitation is proven to yield very good results regarding prognoses on future crimes. Criminals who are sentenced to prison where they get in contact with even worse criminals, join prison gangs to survive etc, only to be released after serving their sentence are more prone to commit further acts of violence and crime.
Yet there should be a limit to what society can accept.
Rapists do not deserve second chances.
The only exception should be made for teenagers in certain cases. Confinement with educational programmes and subsequent tight monitoring are necessary to teach these boys that their views on women are plain wrong. There are cases of young boys who raped a girl and in court they said they saw similar scenes in porn videos and genuinely thought that it's something that women like, because this is what the video suggested.
Adult mass rapists and human traffickers, on the other hand, should receive the same punishment as murderers.
We can't save everyone from their own vileness.
Society has no obligation to cater to individuals who disrespect human life so grossly. The community cannot be asked to have their tax money used on feeding and sheltering such lowlifes.
The money should be used for compensating the victims instead.
That's something our society doesn't get right.
Why do evildoers deserve the right to have insane amounts of money poured into their therapy and rehabilitation and the victims of sexual crimes are left with nothing but their trauma, and every time they're made to give testimony in court they are retraumatised.
Where are million dollars /euros etc of compensation for rape victims who are mentally scarred for life!?
Think about the victims first!
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Utopia can't be found in earthly life.
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Mate, 'hate' is not an action.
You are confusing it with 'hate crime'.
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Of course.
Always think about the victim first. But we are not talking about victims here, we are talking about the state of crimes and the potential for humans - even those who have done very bad things - to change.
No one is. Even psychopath and sociopath doesn't start evil.
Indeed yes.
Why ?
Who said that ?
God ?
You ?
Someone you know ?
There is no rationnal reasons that comes against the possibility for rapist to get "a second chance" in a world were those actions can be prevented. In fact, it the same even for murderers. Nothing beside man made moral is telling us that people should not get a second chance.
In a society where we find out more and more about the structure of the brain and the structure of society, where we understand more and more the sociological reasons behind crimes and where the myth of individual responsibility take less and less place.. there is no rationnal reason that we should keep the middle age notion and talion law that some horrible criminals don't deserve a second chance.
The reason that "moral" existed was because we had no real way to stop that type of person from perpetuating those actions again. In a world were psychological and sociological breakthrough are made each years, this moral doesn't stand much ground anymore (well, not now, but with a bit of work, we should be close in a few decade).
Soon, there will be no reason to say "X should no deserve a second chance". That essentialization is the testymony of an age that is bound to end.
Indeed.
In fact, we could imagine a system where the rehabilitation of criminal serves the compensation for victims.
The fact is that both should get the same amount of care.
That's what justice should be. An equilibrium which shold take care of the victims while guiding those who do crimes without dehumanizing them.
In short, instead of being an army instructor, justice should act like a parent.
Always think about the victim first. But we are not talking about victims here, we are talking about the state of crimes and the potential for humans - even those who have done very bad things - to change.
No one is. Even psychopath and sociopath doesn't start evil.
Indeed yes.
Why ?
Who said that ?
God ?
You ?
Someone you know ?
There is no rationnal reasons that comes against the possibility for rapist to get "a second chance" in a world were those actions can be prevented. In fact, it the same even for murderers. Nothing beside man made moral is telling us that people should not get a second chance.
In a society where we find out more and more about the structure of the brain and the structure of society, where we understand more and more the sociological reasons behind crimes and where the myth of individual responsibility take less and less place.. there is no rationnal reason that we should keep the middle age notion and talion law that some horrible criminals don't deserve a second chance.
The reason that "moral" existed was because we had no real way to stop that type of person from perpetuating those actions again. In a world were psychological and sociological breakthrough are made each years, this moral doesn't stand much ground anymore (well, not now, but with a bit of work, we should be close in a few decade).
Soon, there will be no reason to say "X should no deserve a second chance". That essentialization is the testymony of an age that is bound to end.
Indeed.
In fact, we could imagine a system where the rehabilitation of criminal serves the compensation for victims.
The fact is that both should get the same amount of care.
That's what justice should be. An equilibrium which shold take care of the victims while guiding those who do crimes without dehumanizing them.
In short, instead of being an army instructor, justice should act like a parent.
You're conflating your disgust with rapists with the actual effect of their crimes.
Not to downplay sexual violence
But victims can heal from their trauma and go on to live fruitful lives.
If the punishment should fit the crime, then some rapists should get second chances. All that really means is that if you get released from serving a 10 or 20 year prison sentence, there shouldn't be additional, often meaningless, barriers to re-entry into society. Because stuff like that just incentivizes recidivism.
That being said, the issue with Andrew Tate is that he didn't hurt one person, he hurt countless people. So I'd say people like him probably do deserve to go away forever.
Not to downplay sexual violence
But victims can heal from their trauma and go on to live fruitful lives.
If the punishment should fit the crime, then some rapists should get second chances. All that really means is that if you get released from serving a 10 or 20 year prison sentence, there shouldn't be additional, often meaningless, barriers to re-entry into society. Because stuff like that just incentivizes recidivism.
That being said, the issue with Andrew Tate is that he didn't hurt one person, he hurt countless people. So I'd say people like him probably do deserve to go away forever.
Please do your own research.
The development of antisocial personality disorder may be stopped in early childhood but an adult sociopath won't go back to normal, their brains are miswired to a point of no return. It takes extreme effort on the patient's side, and most sociopaths think they are sane and everyone else is sick, weak, stupid etc. It's a disorder that starts as a survival mechanism but creates destructive, quasi-psychopathic individuals in the long run.
Actual clinical psychopaths are born this way. They are not to 'blame' for their condition. It's more like a 'disability' that leads to complete lack of empathy. It is factually impossible to use therapy on a psychopath. Instead they'd use the therapy sessions to play and manipulate their therapist.
The reason is the protection of innocent members of society. It's community before individual.
Or let me ask the question differently:why should all of society be exposed to murderous criminals, pedos and rapists only for a slight chance that there may be some tiny little bit of good within them?
What have all these innocent potential next victims done to deserve to live in permanent danger?
You can't parent adults.
The development of antisocial personality disorder may be stopped in early childhood but an adult sociopath won't go back to normal, their brains are miswired to a point of no return. It takes extreme effort on the patient's side, and most sociopaths think they are sane and everyone else is sick, weak, stupid etc. It's a disorder that starts as a survival mechanism but creates destructive, quasi-psychopathic individuals in the long run.
Actual clinical psychopaths are born this way. They are not to 'blame' for their condition. It's more like a 'disability' that leads to complete lack of empathy. It is factually impossible to use therapy on a psychopath. Instead they'd use the therapy sessions to play and manipulate their therapist.
The reason is the protection of innocent members of society. It's community before individual.
Or let me ask the question differently:why should all of society be exposed to murderous criminals, pedos and rapists only for a slight chance that there may be some tiny little bit of good within them?
What have all these innocent potential next victims done to deserve to live in permanent danger?
You can't parent adults.
Exactly.
Sociopath/Psychopath =/= evil behavior.
Those can become one and the same with time and circounstancial situations but even sociopath and psychopath can be good people.
Evil comes from action, not from birth.
In a society where innocent can't be protected, yes. In a society where we can create prevention and where we understand the in and out of the fonctionality of crimes, no. We can do better.
Because all those people are human and because we are already surrounded by people with the potential to do all those kind of things.
The ONLY question you should ask yourself is: can I live in a world were people who have already done a bad thing can strive?
The real question is: do you believe in second chances or not?
We are not talking about our actual world here. We are talking about a world were we have already beaten patriarchy, where capitalism is on the verge of extinction, where the carceral system overcame immenses structural changes, where we have completely understood the in and out of criminals actions, where prevention is the norm and where we have concrete tools to stop recidives. (and this )
In that world, someone who has done a very bad thing would most likely never do it again.
Of course you can.
Throw some love and observes how easy adults can be bend.
It was the best way to stop talking about that Pizza turd.
Sociopath/Psychopath =/= evil behavior.
Those can become one and the same with time and circounstancial situations but even sociopath and psychopath can be good people.
Evil comes from action, not from birth.
In a society where innocent can't be protected, yes. In a society where we can create prevention and where we understand the in and out of the fonctionality of crimes, no. We can do better.
Because all those people are human and because we are already surrounded by people with the potential to do all those kind of things.
The ONLY question you should ask yourself is: can I live in a world were people who have already done a bad thing can strive?
The real question is: do you believe in second chances or not?
We are not talking about our actual world here. We are talking about a world were we have already beaten patriarchy, where capitalism is on the verge of extinction, where the carceral system overcame immenses structural changes, where we have completely understood the in and out of criminals actions, where prevention is the norm and where we have concrete tools to stop recidives. (and this )
In that world, someone who has done a very bad thing would most likely never do it again.
Of course you can.
Throw some love and observes how easy adults can be bend.
It was the best way to stop talking about that Pizza turd.
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I'm talking about cases where the sex offender is released after like 5 years and then goes on to do the same shit again.
NO THEY CAN'T FOR FUCK'S SAKE
the real question should be: do I want to live in a society that protects perpetrators or protects victims?
This world will never be real. There will ALWAYS be evil. Please come to terms with this fact. You want an utopian society where everything is unicorns and rainbows.
You cannot have this in life. In a perfect world there would be no sadness, no pain, no suffering, no death.
How long have humans been seeking to reach mythical lands that promise all this but never found them?
Your dream for society is unattainable. Of course society can be improved but please get down to earth. You lack realism.
you just don't get it
NO THEY CAN'T FOR FUCK'S SAKE
the real question should be: do I want to live in a society that protects perpetrators or protects victims?
This world will never be real. There will ALWAYS be evil. Please come to terms with this fact. You want an utopian society where everything is unicorns and rainbows.
You cannot have this in life. In a perfect world there would be no sadness, no pain, no suffering, no death.
How long have humans been seeking to reach mythical lands that promise all this but never found them?
Your dream for society is unattainable. Of course society can be improved but please get down to earth. You lack realism.
you just don't get it
You really need to stop essentializing people mate.
You are creating a fallacious dilemma here. Making it seems like being able to guide perpetrators would negate the protection of victims.
This is fallacious as this is neither not what I said and it's not what reality is.
We can actually do both. We just need to have a system that follow that doctrine.
Keep leaving in the world of star wars, I'll be living in reality, thank you.
I only extend what we arleady know about society and its potential future. You are in complete denial.
The real problem is that you are refusing change.
Who would be fool enough not to seek such a wonderful world ?
Said who ? God ? The bible ? 10000 little years of sedentary humanity ?
We haven't even reach adolescence in term of society yet. We are FAR from reaching our real limit.
You lack imagination.
Or maybe I do, because I lived that.
I think it's important not to take that Pizza turd as a joke. He is not. He is dangerous.
You are creating a fallacious dilemma here. Making it seems like being able to guide perpetrators would negate the protection of victims.
This is fallacious as this is neither not what I said and it's not what reality is.
We can actually do both. We just need to have a system that follow that doctrine.
Keep leaving in the world of star wars, I'll be living in reality, thank you.
I only extend what we arleady know about society and its potential future. You are in complete denial.
The real problem is that you are refusing change.
Who would be fool enough not to seek such a wonderful world ?
Said who ? God ? The bible ? 10000 little years of sedentary humanity ?
We haven't even reach adolescence in term of society yet. We are FAR from reaching our real limit.
You lack imagination.
Or maybe I do, because I lived that.
I think it's important not to take that Pizza turd as a joke. He is not. He is dangerous.
In reality victims get no protection.
Get your facts straight.
Bruh in 500 years humankind will be dead because we destroyed our environment and you think about creating some utopian dream society?
Wtf about star wars? I don't watch the reference, I don't watch this series.
Get your facts straight.
Bruh in 500 years humankind will be dead because we destroyed our environment and you think about creating some utopian dream society?
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Wtf about star wars? I don't watch the reference, I don't watch this series.
In our broken world, yeah. You are right. That's why I'm talking about a world where we have been able to create huge structural and systemic changes.
The only real limits would be a natural catastroph (asteroid etc., supervolcanic eruption, pandemic) and the logical nuclear apocalypse. Beside that, we have a chance.
I choose to be a bit optimistic about our odds..
The only real limits would be a natural catastroph (asteroid etc., supervolcanic eruption, pandemic) and the logical nuclear apocalypse. Beside that, we have a chance.
I choose to be a bit optimistic about our odds..