Can Kouen be superior to Gakuki ?

[SakazOuki]

When Ouken rhetorically asked Ei Sei if he was aware of what is the greatest obstacle to realize his dream of unification and Ei Sei answered "Of course. It's Riboku" which led to Saitaiku/Ouken approving the answer.

As for Renpa he called Riboku the most dangerous man in all of China.

I’ll just quote myself here

Sorry but that is as naive as it gets. Using Riboku's portrayal as the biggest obstacle to unification, and the most dangerous man in China as an argument really undermines what his character is about, and what makes him a unique general. I'm not saying this portrayal should be disregarded, as it is only possible to achieve this status with genius intellect. However, it doesn't really translate directly on the field.

Let's start with a simple question, in Riboku's eyes, who is the most dangerous man in China?
The answer is El Sei, obviously not because Sei possesses some military genius, but due to his ambition of unifying the lands

Now what makes Riboku the biggest obstacle to Qin, and the most dangerous man in China? The fact that he is a genius of man, a jack of all trades. Riboku is someone who possesses military genius on the level of Ousen, political awareness comparable with Saitaku, and as chief of military affairs he has the power and ability to draw grand strategems comparable, maybe even surpassing, that of Shouheikun.

That is not all, Riboku's unique point, and what separates him from every other antagonist in Kingdom, is how hellbent he is on denying Qin their dream of unification. He dedicated every fiber in his body to sabotage Qin at every turn in the manga. His genius, charisma and power allowed him to slowly but surely establish a framework for a coalition with the sole purpose of eradicating Qin.
Absolutely no one in the manga will have these qualities, he is a complete antagonist whether it's on the battelfield or in the royal courts
An enemy of unprecedented level.

This really shows how Riboku is one of the best generals, statesmen and chiefs of military.
It was never supposed to prove how Riboku is definitively stronger than X or Y, especially in a head on clash.

@Owl Ki @Elder Lee Hung @MarineHQ @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea this is a quality topic I'd like y'all to join

Even Ouki calling Riboku unprecedented doesn’t mean much in a literal sense, as Riboku just a couple chapters later thought he’d lose against Ouki’s equal Renpa
A 200k battle between Riboku and someone like Kouen is really a free for all lol

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

Ouken should be very familiar with Kouen

 

[Nidai_Kitetsu]

Context matter

Spoiler

Shin and Mouten only had 200k against the full might of Chu superstate. Kouen and Shouheikun launched a surprise attack on them from two sides. Shouheikun's betreyal and Shin having less troops will definitely play a role.

Spoiler

The point is Hara wont make Kouen look like an average great general who will deal a terrible loss to Shin's resume. If you are using context against Kouen, lets not forget that he was beaten by a superior (600k) army of Qin.

There is a good possibility this dude turns out to be one of the greatest general ever, second to only Riboku and Ousen

 

[Extravlad]

I’ll just quote myself here


Even Ouki calling Riboku unprecedented doesn’t mean much in a literal sense, as Riboku just a couple chapters later thought he’d lose against Ouki’s equal Renpa
A 200k battle between Riboku and someone like Kouen is really a free for all lol

I'll provide a more in-depth answer to this later but just to clarify I checked the japanese raws and Riboku never says he would lose to Renpa. He says Renpa is unbeatable in an head-on clash specifically and Gyuoun has already confirmed Riboku is stronger than Renpa as a general.

 

[God Buggy]

Ouken should be very familiar with Kouen

It would have been cool to know if Ouki had any particular thoughts on Kouen. Renpa knows that Kouen is a monster like his conversation with Kuretsu showed, but that's to be expected. When it comes to discussing rivals though, he always talked of the Qin Six as the ones who were his lethal enemies and the ones he missed.

Coupled with Qin never having fought Chu for 20-30 years at the time of the Coalition (aside for once, where we could say that Kouen indirectly dunked on the Qin lol) and states being wary of starting a full war with Chu...the subject of Kouen's relationship with the Qin Six/Zhao's Three is interesting. He doesn't seem that he had much of that with them, if it all.

@Lee Ba Shou

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

It would have been cool to know if Ouki had any particular thoughts on Kouen. Renpa knows that Kouen is a monster like his conversation with Kuretsu showed, but that's to be expected. When it comes to discussing rivals though, he always talked of the Qin Six as the ones who were his lethal enemies and the ones he missed.

Coupled with Qin never having fought Chu for 20-30 years at the time of the Coalition (aside for once, where we could say that Kouen indirectly dunked on the Qin lol) and states being wary of starting a full war with Chu...the subject of Kouen's relationship with the Qin Six/Zhao's Three is interesting. He doesn't seem that he had much of that with them, if it all.

@Lee Ba Shou

I said it in the past but I think Kou En is the guy who conquered all of Eastern Qi for Chu, so much like Yan and Qin had no familiarity with each other, Kou En would’ve never fought Qin or Zhao really.

The only time Kou En probably ever came into direct contact with Qin would’ve been when Oukotsu invaded, and even then it’s kind of unclear if Kou En was even involved in that battle or if he just sent Kanmei. And Renpa for his career mainly fought Qin and Yan so it makes sense that he wouldn’t be as personal with Kou En.

This is what I think has been hinted so far lol.

 

[God Buggy]

I said it in the past but I think Kou En is the guy who conquered all of Eastern Qi for Chu, so much like Yan and Qin had no familiarity with each other, Kou En would’ve never fought Qin or Zhao really.

The only time Kou En probably ever came into direct contact with Qin would’ve been when Oukotsu invaded, and even then it’s kind of unclear if Kou En was even involved in that battle or if he just sent Kanmei. And Renpa for his career mainly fought Qin and Yan so it makes sense that he wouldn’t be as personal with Kou En.

This is what I think has been hinted so far lol.

Regarding Oukotsu, it was stated that Kouen appointed Kanmei as special deputy "to go out and receive Oukotsu". So at least for the actual battle, Kouen wasn't involved.

Honestly I think Kouen might not be that old either. Kyou was a prodigious talent, extremely precocious. Kouen might just have been that but to an even more extreme degree lol.

 

[Ninjashadow0209]

Nah.

Only guys who I put in that realm.

Hakuki,Ren Pa, EoS Shin,EoS Ou Sen and Ri Boku.

Post automatically merged: Mar 12, 2024

I can see KouEn be something like Ou Ki a super hybrid General yet, we have guys above him.

RenPa and Hakuki for sure.

EoS Shin and EoS Ousen too.

Now Ri Boku will be a question mark.

 

[centurion]

Spoiler: history

 

[God Buggy]

Spoiler: history

Ousen after learning of Shin's terrific defeat:

Spoiler

"HOH"

 

[Daniel]

Honestly I think Kouen might not be that old either. Kyou was a prodigious talent, extremely precocious. Kouen might just have been that but to an even more extreme degree lol.

Maybe? It's hard to downplay Kyou's abilities as a 6GG here since she got to that level (possibly) in her early 20s, and she could have been in her mid to late 20s when she died here. Shin/Ouhon/Mouten/Kyou Kai are at that age respectively in the current arc, and the main trio (ignoring Kyou Kai) just made the rank of General, and the three of them are pretty much prodigies to the utmost degree.

Kou En could have been a prodigious talent in his era, but it's quite likely that as a great general of Chu (and a male at that, yes gender matters here), his talent most likely would have skewed primarily towards martial proficiency, similar to Kanmei (and if Kanmei's results on the battlefield with 100 cities were of any indication, chances were that generals in Chu army needed to be strong asf as a priority).

Instead of comparing Kyou to Kou En, it'd make more sense if she was compared w/Yo Tan Wa, whose leadership and knowledge rating are actually that high for some reason despite their age (and even higher than their strength ratings), AND has a strength rating equal to that of current arc Ouhon...

 

[God Buggy]

Maybe? It's hard to downplay Kyou's abilities as a 6GG here since she got to that level (possibly) in her early 20s, and she could have been in her mid to late 20s when she died here. Shin/Ouhon/Mouten/Kyou Kai are at that age respectively in the current arc, and the main trio (ignoring Kyou Kai) just made the rank of General, and the three of them are pretty much prodigies to the utmost degree.

Kou En could have been a prodigious talent in his era, but it's quite likely that as a great general of Chu (and a male at that, yes gender matters here), his talent most likely would have skewed primarily towards martial proficiency, similar to Kanmei (and if Kanmei's results on the battlefield with 100 cities were of any indication, chances were that generals in Chu army needed to be strong asf as a priority).

Instead of comparing Kyou to Kou En, it'd make more sense if she was compared w/Yo Tan Wa, whose leadership and knowledge rating are actually that high for some reason despite their age (and even higher than their strength ratings), AND has a strength rating equal to that of current arc Ouhon...

Kouen gives off the vibe of a mix between Ouki and Shouheikun to me. "The Monstrous Bird of Qin" - "The Tiger of Chu" two legendary Great Generals of the Heavens, and his comment on Chu's true potential sounds like what a Head of a Military like Shouheikun would say (and in fact Kouen's sentiment was shared by the current head of Chu's military affairs Karin). He's a monstrous strategist no doubts.

With regards of him as a duelist, yea I think he probably is one of China's best.

 

[Xione]

No. Simply due to the fact there won't be a major event that would allow Kouen to gain the insane experience Gakuki had. He could be more talented, but he'd lack the insane experience that Hara uses to justifies Gakuki being the top 1 general of the manga.

Him even reaching Ouki - Hakuki tier in experience itself is doubtful but possible atleast with the amount of time he'd be active for.

Realistically I think only Ousen has a chance at being superior to Gakuki, post-Chu (he could have the experience by that point) and Shin if he just out talents everybody by a solid margin (since he won't match the experience.)

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

There's 3 options:

- Either Kouen will be above Riboku, Hakuki and Gakuki due to his unknown factor. We barely know much about the dude and there's no direct comparison for him unlike Hakuki, Riboku and Gakuki. Historically, Kouen was actually pretty impressive.

- He will be weaker than the three of them but stronger than every other generals. Him being on top 4/5 is still an insane portrayal.

- Or he will be a "fraud" like Kochou who got carried by his army. Kouen bought Kanmei just to defeat Oukotsu. Kouen did defeat GG Shin and GG Mouten which is his best feat (better than any generals in the series so far actually) but he still bought Shouheikun for even more damage to Shin's Army. Then when Ousen and Moubu pulls up, Kouen got his shit done in along with Shouheikun.

So I don't know, it's up to Hara to decide.