Powers & Abilities Conqueror vs Non Conqueror Mentality
- Thread starter Blazing Lion
- Start date
Well again, I’m not saying Sanji lacks resolve, I’m saying that he does not have has strong as resolve as Luffy and Zoro and that‘s why he is weaker than them. I don’t see how anyone can think that Luffy and Zoro would have given up on WCI the way that Sanji did.
I think Oden’s actually the exact opposite- he never gave up his goal of opening Wano’s borders. His deal with Kaido didn’t have anything to do with his dream. He was content to make a deal with Kaido and Orochi to save the people of Wano at the cost of his own dignity, but the second they broke the deal he went after them. Then when it was clear that he was going to die, he made sure to pass his dream over to the Scabbards so that it would be fulfilled.
No, I do not think Zoro would ever consent to life imprisonment and giving up on his dream. The person threatening Luffy would need to kill Zoro as well.
He didn‘t “pretend” to give up.
There was no cunning plan by Sanji to fool everyone, get out of his situation and resume his life. He genuinely saw no way out and gave up on his dream and his crew.
You’re the one crying, lmao, jumping in on a conversation because of a few digs at Sanji fanboys.
You also genuinely don‘t know what the fuck you are talking about.
Sanji feeding the pirates was admirable when he was going to fight them off.
Sanji was not willing to sacrifice the ship, was going to give up and die instead, and Luffy outright called him a coward for it.
You going to look at the above and tell me that this is actually Sanji showing strong self character? When the main character is literally calling him a coward for what he was doing.
Nah, you see, I actually understand the character and can see that he is flawed.
I am not saying that Sanji is not brave, or does not have willpower, or cannot get CoC.
I’m saying he does not have the willpower that Luffy or Zoro does, and that’s been clearly demonstrated by his Baratie and WCI actions. Oda literally has him criticised by Luffy both times for and you sadcases are trying to pretend that
What Sanji did against Kalifa was not the right thing and deserved no praise, fyi. He should have left the fight immediately, rather than sit and have tea with her, then let himself get beat up.
What he did against Black Maria where he asked for help was then the right thing, where he actually trusted Robin to do what he couldn’t and get him out of the mess he was in.
Imagine talking about intellectual dishonesty and trying to argue with a straight face that Sanji is not giving up on his dreams here.
At what point when Luffy was going after Ace did he ignore his dream? What is this shit you are coming up with?
How has he ignored his dream when he‘s telling Whitebeard of all people to shut up because he’s going to be PK?
No, because Luffy obviously did not consider refusing Hancock’s ship to be the end of his journey and dream, lmao. He wasn’t going to stop looking for being PK. If they still didn’t let him leave he would have either tried to sneak outmor just went back to plan A of punching out Hancock.
You genuinely think this
Is the face of a man who has accepted he is never going to achieve his life long dream and will live on Amazon Lily for the rest of his life lmao?
That is the same as this scene?
There’s some cheek you talking about intellectual dishonesty lmao.
Luffy would have tried to build another raft and risk drown himself rather than staying on Amazon Lily
I think Oden’s actually the exact opposite- he never gave up his goal of opening Wano’s borders. His deal with Kaido didn’t have anything to do with his dream. He was content to make a deal with Kaido and Orochi to save the people of Wano at the cost of his own dignity, but the second they broke the deal he went after them. Then when it was clear that he was going to die, he made sure to pass his dream over to the Scabbards so that it would be fulfilled.
No, I do not think Zoro would ever consent to life imprisonment and giving up on his dream. The person threatening Luffy would need to kill Zoro as well.
He didn‘t “pretend” to give up.
There was no cunning plan by Sanji to fool everyone, get out of his situation and resume his life. He genuinely saw no way out and gave up on his dream and his crew.
You’re the one crying, lmao, jumping in on a conversation because of a few digs at Sanji fanboys.
You also genuinely don‘t know what the fuck you are talking about.
Sanji feeding the pirates was admirable when he was going to fight them off.
Sanji was not willing to sacrifice the ship, was going to give up and die instead, and Luffy outright called him a coward for it.
You going to look at the above and tell me that this is actually Sanji showing strong self character? When the main character is literally calling him a coward for what he was doing.
Nah, you see, I actually understand the character and can see that he is flawed.
I am not saying that Sanji is not brave, or does not have willpower, or cannot get CoC.
I’m saying he does not have the willpower that Luffy or Zoro does, and that’s been clearly demonstrated by his Baratie and WCI actions. Oda literally has him criticised by Luffy both times for and you sadcases are trying to pretend that
What Sanji did against Kalifa was not the right thing and deserved no praise, fyi. He should have left the fight immediately, rather than sit and have tea with her, then let himself get beat up.
What he did against Black Maria where he asked for help was then the right thing, where he actually trusted Robin to do what he couldn’t and get him out of the mess he was in.
Imagine talking about intellectual dishonesty and trying to argue with a straight face that Sanji is not giving up on his dreams here.
At what point when Luffy was going after Ace did he ignore his dream? What is this shit you are coming up with?
How has he ignored his dream when he‘s telling Whitebeard of all people to shut up because he’s going to be PK?
No, because Luffy obviously did not consider refusing Hancock’s ship to be the end of his journey and dream, lmao. He wasn’t going to stop looking for being PK. If they still didn’t let him leave he would have either tried to sneak outmor just went back to plan A of punching out Hancock.
You genuinely think this
Is the face of a man who has accepted he is never going to achieve his life long dream and will live on Amazon Lily for the rest of his life lmao?
That is the same as this scene?
There’s some cheek you talking about intellectual dishonesty lmao.
Luffy would have tried to build another raft and risk drown himself rather than staying on Amazon Lily
Sanji's scene is the equivalent, in my opinion, of Luffy saying that he cannot protect anyone after Marineford.
Does he actually believe that? Yes, he does.
Is that true? No, because he saved the crew countless times before that moment.
Sanji feeding the pirates happens in a moment where Sanji knows that if they are fed they are all going to die. He knows he's gonna fight, but he knows they are going to lose. He didn't know Luffy was a man beast that was gonna save their ass, he willingly chose his morals over the safety of people.
There is a difference between morals - dreams and objectivity, and Sanji is more moral then serving his own dream.
The fact that he is ambivalent doesn't mean that this is not true. Sanji CAN BE willing to die for his morals and at the same time CANNOT think of living for his dream, because contrary of Luffy and Zoro, he's grown up to believe he's not worth nothing, and that he doesn't deserve to exist. Hence, living by helping others.
I have a feeling you misunderstand the character, because you write all those thing but you draw the wrong conclusions that Oda tries to portray. Sanji has 2 flashbacks about himself, the first is about his dream and about morals, the second is about how worthless he believes himself to be.
These two things co-exist and show a flawed and overall tragic character.
In WCI he is not happy. He is kid Sanji being reminded he's worth nothing, and his existence brings only pain to those around him, and the only thing he deserves to do is to disappear.
It's trauma, and bypassing the trauma is growth. It's not hard to understand.
It’s not cherry picking.
For your argument that AL and WCI are equivalent to be work you need to be arguing that when Luffy agreed to give up the ship on Amazon Lily, that meant that Luffy knowingly and willingly was agreeing to give up on becoming the PK for the rest of his life. Which is clearly not the case, as Luffy was bouncing around happily in the immediate aftermath.
The raft scene shows the potential alternatives to Luffy. Just because Hancock had refused to let him leave on a ship, it did not mean that Luffy was agreeing to living the rest of his life on Amazon Lily. He would have tried to get off the island in another way.
Sanji, on the other hand, believed that there was no way out of his predicament, so he gave up on his dream and resolved to live as Big Mom’s son in law for the rest of his days, never seeking All Blue, never helping Luffy become PK. He was utterly miserable about it, but it’s what he had decided to do. And it was not a spur of the moment decision that he quickly came around on, it was a decision made with forethought.
I do not believe that there is anything in One Piece to suggest that Luffy or Zoro would ever look ahead and accept that their dream was over. Regardless of the circumstances. I don’t think Luffy temporarily having a total breakdown in the immediate aftermath of Ace’s death and all Luffy went through compares to the time and thought Sanji put into his decision. There is a difference between things said and done in passion, and things said and done with full consideration of the facts.
There is nothing in Baratie to suggest that Sanji thought that they were certain to die if he fed Krieg. Where have you got this from?
That’s all he says about the situation. The other cooks panic about Krieg’s mens strength, Sanji and Zeff don’t. Zeff outright gives him food and calls him a coward who fled the Grand Line.
It’s not a misunderstanding.
Sanji’s deepseated issues means he doesn’t have the same unwavering belief in himself that Luffy and Zoro do. That’s why he needed them to act as the push he needs to leave Zeff. Luffy and Zoro never needed each other to do that. That’s a clear difference between Sanji and the other two.
People were making the argument that this was only Baratie Sanji, and that it was an issue that vanished after his initial arc. They are wrong, because it reared it’s head again on WCI. Sanji again retreated into himself and needed to be pushed back out there.
That seperates him from Luffy and Zoro. I think Luffy and Zoro are clearly stronger willed that Sanji is. This should not be controversial when they are literally the ones who inspire Sanji with their never say die approach. And in the series where strength is based on willpower, the guy who gives up without a fight, resolves to live without pursing his dream, will not be as strong as the ones who always go for it.
It should not be controversial to say that Sanji is not as as strong as Luffy and Zoro, doesn’t have as strong Haki as Luffy and Zoro, and does not have the same willpower as Luffy and Zoro. It’s just how the character has always been written, as the number three of the group who doesn’t quite believe in himself the same way. Oda would never have Luffy and Zoro act the way Sanji did on WCI. It’s not in their nature.
What people seem to be getting upset at is that they can‘t see that Luffy and Zoro being above Sanji =/= me saying that Sanji is a weakling, Sanji can’t get CoC, Sanji can’t get strong Haki. That’s not what I am saying.
My first post in this thread was saying I think it’s a mistake to view Luffy and Zoro‘s mentality as the baseline for what a CoC user should be, when they are actually extraordinary for that as whole, including other CoC users.
Like, I think Sanji is far stronger willed and has far more belief in himself than CoC user Katakuri, who lived a lie for decades before Luffy came along, so it’s no wonder that Sanji will end up vastly superior to him, and with far stronger Haki in turn.
And again with that, Katakuri‘s still stronger than the majority of the characters in the OP world himself.
For your argument that AL and WCI are equivalent to be work you need to be arguing that when Luffy agreed to give up the ship on Amazon Lily, that meant that Luffy knowingly and willingly was agreeing to give up on becoming the PK for the rest of his life. Which is clearly not the case, as Luffy was bouncing around happily in the immediate aftermath.
The raft scene shows the potential alternatives to Luffy. Just because Hancock had refused to let him leave on a ship, it did not mean that Luffy was agreeing to living the rest of his life on Amazon Lily. He would have tried to get off the island in another way.
Sanji, on the other hand, believed that there was no way out of his predicament, so he gave up on his dream and resolved to live as Big Mom’s son in law for the rest of his days, never seeking All Blue, never helping Luffy become PK. He was utterly miserable about it, but it’s what he had decided to do. And it was not a spur of the moment decision that he quickly came around on, it was a decision made with forethought.
I do not believe that there is anything in One Piece to suggest that Luffy or Zoro would ever look ahead and accept that their dream was over. Regardless of the circumstances. I don’t think Luffy temporarily having a total breakdown in the immediate aftermath of Ace’s death and all Luffy went through compares to the time and thought Sanji put into his decision. There is a difference between things said and done in passion, and things said and done with full consideration of the facts.
There is nothing in Baratie to suggest that Sanji thought that they were certain to die if he fed Krieg. Where have you got this from?
That’s all he says about the situation. The other cooks panic about Krieg’s mens strength, Sanji and Zeff don’t. Zeff outright gives him food and calls him a coward who fled the Grand Line.
It’s not a misunderstanding.
Sanji’s deepseated issues means he doesn’t have the same unwavering belief in himself that Luffy and Zoro do. That’s why he needed them to act as the push he needs to leave Zeff. Luffy and Zoro never needed each other to do that. That’s a clear difference between Sanji and the other two.
People were making the argument that this was only Baratie Sanji, and that it was an issue that vanished after his initial arc. They are wrong, because it reared it’s head again on WCI. Sanji again retreated into himself and needed to be pushed back out there.
That seperates him from Luffy and Zoro. I think Luffy and Zoro are clearly stronger willed that Sanji is. This should not be controversial when they are literally the ones who inspire Sanji with their never say die approach. And in the series where strength is based on willpower, the guy who gives up without a fight, resolves to live without pursing his dream, will not be as strong as the ones who always go for it.
It should not be controversial to say that Sanji is not as as strong as Luffy and Zoro, doesn’t have as strong Haki as Luffy and Zoro, and does not have the same willpower as Luffy and Zoro. It’s just how the character has always been written, as the number three of the group who doesn’t quite believe in himself the same way. Oda would never have Luffy and Zoro act the way Sanji did on WCI. It’s not in their nature.
What people seem to be getting upset at is that they can‘t see that Luffy and Zoro being above Sanji =/= me saying that Sanji is a weakling, Sanji can’t get CoC, Sanji can’t get strong Haki. That’s not what I am saying.
My first post in this thread was saying I think it’s a mistake to view Luffy and Zoro‘s mentality as the baseline for what a CoC user should be, when they are actually extraordinary for that as whole, including other CoC users.
Like, I think Sanji is far stronger willed and has far more belief in himself than CoC user Katakuri, who lived a lie for decades before Luffy came along, so it’s no wonder that Sanji will end up vastly superior to him, and with far stronger Haki in turn.
And again with that, Katakuri‘s still stronger than the majority of the characters in the OP world himself.
Your inability to understand Luffy and Zoro, their relationship and the general point of going after dreams in One Piece is as embarrassing as not being able to understand what “my adventure is over“ means.
What exactly do you think is happening there?
And why do you think Luffy was standing by watching Zoro basically commit suicide?
The answer to that is why the two would go down fighting rather than submit to an ultimatum where one cannot achieve their dreams as a result.
What exactly do you think is happening there?
And why do you think Luffy was standing by watching Zoro basically commit suicide?
The answer to that is why the two would go down fighting rather than submit to an ultimatum where one cannot achieve their dreams as a result.
Your inability to understand Luffy and Zoro, their relationship and the general point of going after dreams in One Piece is as embarrassing as not being able to understand what “my adventure is over“ means.
What exactly do you think is happening there?
And why do you think Luffy was standing by watching Zoro basically commit suicide?
The answer to that is why the two would go down fighting rather than submit to an ultimatum where one cannot achieve their dreams as a result.
What exactly do you think is happening there?
And why do you think Luffy was standing by watching Zoro basically commit suicide?
The answer to that is why the two would go down fighting rather than submit to an ultimatum where one cannot achieve their dreams as a result.
You’re taking their EB characterizations and completely ignoring the growth they’ve shown.
Thinking “Zoro would rather have Luffy die than face life imprisonment” is such a misunderstanding of Zoros current character its completely laughable.
Zoro’s character changes in East Blue itself. Shell Town Zoro would not make the promise to Luffy that Baratie Zoro did.
And Zoro does not say that Luffy‘s dream is more important than his own.
Zoro believes that Luffy’s life, and the crew’s life, is more important than his own life. Lives, not dreams. Two different things.
What you keep ignoring is that in your fantasy scenario I’m saying Zoro would end up dead because he would fight rather than submit to a life without ambition. That’s not what he did with Kuma. If he died against Kuma, as he offered, he could have died with his head held high because he never stopped trying to be the WSS. That’s why he can even make the offer to Kuma in the first place.
If Zoro submitted to a deal where in exchange for Luffy’s life, he would agree to never pick up a sword again and never aim to be WSS, Luffy would hunt Zoro down and beat him black and blue. That’s the relationship between the two. They are content with dying, as long as they don’t give up on their dreams in the way, because that is worse than death for them both.
And Zoro does not say that Luffy‘s dream is more important than his own.
Zoro believes that Luffy’s life, and the crew’s life, is more important than his own life. Lives, not dreams. Two different things.
What you keep ignoring is that in your fantasy scenario I’m saying Zoro would end up dead because he would fight rather than submit to a life without ambition. That’s not what he did with Kuma. If he died against Kuma, as he offered, he could have died with his head held high because he never stopped trying to be the WSS. That’s why he can even make the offer to Kuma in the first place.
If Zoro submitted to a deal where in exchange for Luffy’s life, he would agree to never pick up a sword again and never aim to be WSS, Luffy would hunt Zoro down and beat him black and blue. That’s the relationship between the two. They are content with dying, as long as they don’t give up on their dreams in the way, because that is worse than death for them both.
Your other message is fine, you make good points but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Here, this I believe is a cope and frankly is the same thing Sanji does, but again, I believe we'll have to agree to disagree.
Zoro deciding that he might just as well die there fighting a non swordsman for someone else dream in in no way shape or form different than what Sanji did.
Do you frankly believe that if Kuma instead of killing him had sent him to impel down and cut off his arms he would have said no?
Here, this I believe is a cope and frankly is the same thing Sanji does, but again, I believe we'll have to agree to disagree.
Zoro deciding that he might just as well die there fighting a non swordsman for someone else dream in in no way shape or form different than what Sanji did.
Do you frankly believe that if Kuma instead of killing him had sent him to impel down and cut off his arms he would have said no?
@Garp the Fist Where does Zoro cutting his feet away in Little Garden fits in all of this? I thought he preferred to die than giving up on his dream?