Powers & Abilities Conqueror vs Non Conqueror Mentality

[Garp the Fist]

http://imgur.com/a/44aeNpl

As I said, your take is laughably wrong about Zoro.

You are literally quoting him saying that the crews lives are what he’s willing to die for.

Not that he thinks Luffy‘s dream is more important than his own.

Dreams =/= lives. Zoro believes it’s better to die having chased his dream than lived giving it up.

Your other message is fine, you make good points but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Here, this I believe is a cope and frankly is the same thing Sanji does, but again, I believe we'll have to agree to disagree.
Zoro deciding that he might just as well die there fighting a non swordsman for someone else dream in in no way shape or form different than what Sanji did.
Do you frankly believe that if Kuma instead of killing him had sent him to impel down and cut off his arms he would have said no?

Yes, I think if Kuma had said you’ll need to mutilate yourself Zoro would have fought instead of accepting that.

Zoro offered a fair trade, life for a life. Anything beyond that, attempts to mutilate Zoro, make him give up what is most important to him and live with that, is beyond that. That would then shows Kuma as a brute of a man who cannot be trusted to maintain his word, and so you are as well fighting to the end.

And you can keep saying what Sanji did is no different, that’s cope. That’s saying Sanji was right on Baratie when he said that Zoro should just give up his dream rather than dying. Missing the point of the scene and what it means in One Piece to stake your life on going after dreams entirely

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

You are literally quoting him saying that the crews lives are what he’s willing to die for.

Not that he thinks Luffy‘s dream is more important than his own.

Dreams =/= lives. Zoro believes it’s better to die having chased his dream than lived giving it up.



Yes, I think if Kuma had said you’ll need to mutilate yourself Zoro would have fought instead of accepting that.

Zoro offered a fair trade, life for a life. Anything beyond that, attempts to mutilate Zoro, make him give up what is most important to him and live with that, is beyond that. That would then shows Kuma as a brute of a man who cannot be trusted to maintain his word, and so you are as well fighting to the end.

And you can keep saying what Sanji did is no different, that’s cope. That’s saying Sanji was right on Baratie when he said that Zoro should just give up his dream rather than dying. Missing the point of the scene and what it means in One Piece to stake your life on going after dreams entirely

As I wrote in my previous message, Zoro was willing to give up his dream in Little Garden and live a life of a cripple.

 

[Welkin]

I don’t get what “skipping steps” refers to.

But essentually we are going around in circles. I think that Luffy been shaken for, let‘s remember, about two minutes immediately after waking up from his coma, after everything he went through, is not anywhere near as comparable to Sanji deliberately choosing to give up because he thought it was the best thing to do.

This is just you giving Luffy a pass while not even attempting to do the same for Sanji. Luffy was shaken for only two minutes after his coma because of Jinbei's influence. It isn't a realization he came to himself

He didn't break himself out of anything. He needed an outside influential force (Jinbei) to knock some sense into him before understanding that he still had more to live for

Prior to Jinbei's arrival he was doubting his ability to become the Pirate King and would've killed himself in the process

You're completely ignoring the fact that even the strongest conqueror's have times where their will is shaken and they need a helping hand. These characters are not devoid of emotion or lapses in reasoning. It isn't a Sanji thing, it's a human thing

And like I’ve said, it’s not wrong in the real world. It’s wrong in the OP world, where Oda’s consistent message is that it’s better to die trying to acheive your dream than give up. And where he’s literally made his fighting power system tied to how strong willed you are. The world where it is considered admirable to chop off your own limbs to try and keep fighting. Real world, that’s rather crazy.

Sanji is being praised for real world logic, even though his introduction arc is all about Luffy, Zoro and Zeff getting him to put real world logic aside and embrace One Piece world logic.

Again, you are confusing real world logic with OP world logic and the message that Oda is trying to send.

The message Oda has been consistent with throughout is go for your dreams, even if it seems impossible, even if you might die.

Sanji gives up on his dream, even though it seems logical, and the result would have been the death of him, and likely half his crew, and then the other half on Wano as they either try to fight Kaido or avenge the rest of the crew against BM.

This is completely untrue though. Real world logic still applies to the OP world. It goes both ways

Kidd decided to oppose Shanks and fight him when he was completely unprepared and what happened? He got obliterated and potentially got his entire crew killed

"OP logic" is far from infallible. You can still fail while adhering to it and you can succeed while foregoing it

I don’t blame them tbh.

If Zoro had acted the way Sanji did on WCI, gave up on his dream and ended up crying outside the bedroom of a sixteen year old, I too would do my very best to pretend it never happened.

Side note:

It's also much harder to see your argument as genuine when you throw in stuff like this. It isn't really a secret to anyone that's been here long enough that you aren't the biggest fan of Sanji. It just makes it look like you're arguing in bad faith

 

[U c 4 up da idly]

It's 2025 and Sanji haters still don't understand Baratie and Sanji

 

[Garp the Fist]

@Garp the Fist Where does Zoro cutting his feet away in Little Garden fits in all of this? I thought he preferred to die than giving up on his dream?

Why do you think Zoro attempting to cut his legs off is him giving up on his dream? It’s the opposite. He still thinks there’s a chance to get out there, a completely insane chance none the less, but because Zoro has obscene willpower he takes it anyway.

It’s basically the essence of what chasing dreams means in One Piece.

Sanji wouldn’t do it btw, he was terrified of losing his hands on WCI.

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

Why do you think Zoro attempting to cut his legs off is him giving up on his dream? It’s the opposite. He still thinks there’s a chance to get out there, a completely insane chance none the less, but because Zoro has obscene willpower he takes it anyway.

It’s basically the essence of what chasing dreams means in One Piece.

Sanji wouldn’t do it btw, he was terrified of losing his hands on WCI.

Come the fuck on.
Are you really saying that a person WITHOUT FEET can be WSS?

 

[Welkin]

Why do you think Zoro attempting to cut his legs off is him giving up on his dream? It’s the opposite. He still thinks there’s a chance to get out there, a completely insane chance none the less, but because Zoro has obscene willpower he takes it anyway.

It’s basically the essence of what chasing dreams means in One Piece.

Sanji wouldn’t do it btw, he was terrified of losing his hands on WCI.

This is a weird comparison too

Sanji is a chef that uses his hands to cook. They're so important to him that he limits himself in battle by not using his hands

A better comparison would be Zoro cutting off his arms and cutting out all of his teeth so he could never wield a sword again. Which he wouldn't do since his dream is to become the WSS

 

[Juanpiz]

Come the fuck on.
Are you really saying that a person WITHOUT FEET can be WSS?

Why Not If the guy in your pic can live in a chest for years in the wild

 

[GalaxyLevelShanks]

Dont project your fantasies on to me

I’m not. Just stating what I see. It’s okay you don’t gotta hide from your true self :3

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

Why Not If the guy in your pic can live in a chest for years in the wild

You have to understand that Gaimon is just built different.

 

[Blazing Lion]

If Zoro believes that there’s no point in his own dream if he can’t help Luffy realize his, that’s a priority.

LMAO, that is his standard, talk about bad reading comprehension and not understanding a character, no wonder anti Zoro brigade cries about no character development for Zoro.

If Zoro cant protect his captain and crew then Zoro achieving WSS means shit. If he lets his captain and crew be killed and he runs off to save himself and achieve his dream then he is not worthy of WSS. Wounds on the back are a swordsmans shame. A sword protects what the user wants to protect and cuts what the user wants to cut. For Zoro it is not acceptable for the future WSS to have been unable to protect his captain and crew.

You forget that Zoro made a promise to Kuina about becoming WSS but he also made a promise to Luffy to not lose until he becomes WSS and he referred to Luffy as the PK. The two promises are brought up again in his fight against King.

 

[Juanpiz]

You have to understand that Gaimon is just built different.

50% man
50% chest
100% Chad

 

[Sir Yasheen]

You are literally quoting him saying that the crews lives are what he’s willing to die for.

Not that he thinks Luffy‘s dream is more important than his own.

Dreams =/= lives. Zoro believes it’s better to die having chased his dream than lived giving it up.



Yes, I think if Kuma had said you’ll need to mutilate yourself Zoro would have fought instead of accepting that.

Zoro offered a fair trade, life for a life. Anything beyond that, attempts to mutilate Zoro, make him give up what is most important to him and live with that, is beyond that. That would then shows Kuma as a brute of a man who cannot be trusted to maintain his word, and so you are as well fighting to the end.

And you can keep saying what Sanji did is no different, that’s cope. That’s saying Sanji was right on Baratie when he said that Zoro should just give up his dream rather than dying. Missing the point of the scene and what it means in One Piece to stake your life on going after dreams entirely

Zoro literally saying his ambition means nothing in comparison to the lives of Luffy and the crew. But you think Zoro wouldn’t abandon it and accept imprisonment if it meant saving the lives of Luffy and his crew.

As I said you are just going against Zoros character

 

[Garp the Fist]

Come the fuck on.
Are you really saying that a person WITHOUT FEET can be WSS?

Uh, yeah.

You don’t get One Piece at a fundamental level if this is something that you don‘t get. You need to reread the chapter where Zoro does it. Zoro, Broggy and Vivi are all portrayed as absolutely in the right for what they are trying to do. As Zoro said, they were dead for sure if he didn’t do it, so why not?

Zoro could lose legs, or arms, or eyes, and he’ll still try and be WSS. If he lost his legs, he’d do a Shiki and start walking on two swords and fighting with five.

This is a weird comparison too

Sanji is a chef that uses his hands to cook. They're so important to him that he limits himself in battle by not using his hands

A better comparison would be Zoro cutting off his arms and cutting out all of his teeth so he could never wield a sword again. Which he wouldn't do since his dream is to become the WSS

Nope, as I’ve said above, Zoro wouldn’t stop if he lost limbs. Others have managed without it. He’d stick swords in the stumps if he needed to.

Like he said against King, if he can tear out someone’s throat with his teeth, Zoro would still try and fight

This is just you giving Luffy a pass while not even attempting to do the same for Sanji. Luffy was shaken for only two minutes after his coma because of Jinbei's influence. It isn't a realization he came to himself

Yes, because I think Luffy was mentally and physically in a position fathoms worse than Sanji was in on WCI, and that what he was saying in the heat of the moment doesn’t compare to Sanji’s reasoned and rational approach to give up.

People will probably disagree and say I’m being unfair, but Sanji was not in as tough a situation as Luffy was in. He was in a tough place, but Luffy had went through one of the worst hell gauntlets in the series.

This is completely untrue though. Real world logic still applies to the OP world. It goes both ways

Kidd decided to oppose Shanks and fight him when he was completely unprepared and what happened? He got obliterated and potentially got his entire crew killed

"OP logic" is far from infallible. You can still fail while adhering to it and you can succeed while foregoing it

This is only an argument if you think Kid is a) a hero like Sanji and b) done completely.

Obviously villains don’t get rewarded for following their dreams. Luffy breaks them instead.

What’s far more likely is that Kid returns, dream still intact, but finally with the change in attitude where he stops going after innocent people (which is why Oda punished him so much).

Now, Kid may well give up for a bit, like Sanji did. Again, this doesn’t mean he can‘t be a conqueror or a top tier, but it would show he‘s not got the willpower of Luffy and Zoro.

It's also much harder to see your argument as genuine when you throw in stuff like this. It isn't really a secret to anyone that's been here long enough that you aren't the biggest fan of Sanji. It just makes it look like you're arguing in bad faith

Tbh I don’t care. There’s plenty of Sanji fans (not saying you) who have shown a complete inability to argue with anything resembling good faith or accepting that Sanji may sometimes have flaws deeper than his perv gag.

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

Uh, yeah.

You don’t get One Piece at a fundamental level if this is something that you don‘t get. You need to reread the chapter where Zoro does it. Zoro, Broggy and Vivi are all portrayed as absolutely in the right for what they are trying to do. As Zoro said, they were dead for sure if he didn’t do it, so why not?

Zoro could lose legs, or arms, or eyes, and he’ll still try and be WSS. If he lost his legs, he’d do a Shiki and start walking on two swords and fighting with five.



Nope, as I’ve said above, Zoro wouldn’t stop if he lost limbs. Others have managed without it. He’d stick swords in the stumps if he needed to.

Like he said against King, if he can tear out someone’s throat with his teeth, Zoro would still try and fight



Yes, because I think Luffy was mentally and physically in a position fathoms worse than Sanji was in on WCI, and that what he was saying in the heat of the moment doesn’t compare to Sanji’s reasoned and rational approach to give up.

People will probably disagree and say I’m being unfair, but Sanji was not in as tough a situation as Luffy was in. He was in a tough place, but Luffy had went through one of the worst hell gauntlets in the series.



This is only an argument if you think Kid is a) a hero like Sanji and b) done completely.

Obviously villains don’t get rewarded for following their dreams. Luffy breaks them instead.

What’s far more likely is that Kid returns, dream still intact, but finally with the change in attitude where he stops going after innocent people (which is why Oda punished him so much).

Now, Kid may well give up for a bit, like Sanji did. Again, this doesn’t mean he can‘t be a conqueror or a top tier, but it would show he‘s not got the willpower of Luffy and Zoro.



Tbh I don’t care. There’s plenty of Sanji fans (not saying you) who have shown a complete inability to argue with anything resembling good faith or accepting that Sanji may sometimes have flaws deeper than his perv gag.

Look man, whatever you believe, it's cleaer I cannot change your mind.
So Sanji saying that his voyage ends there is final and binding until he dies, but cutting both his feet off is not a statement, Zoro will still try to be WSS while on a wheelchair.
Whatever you want to tell yoursef.

 

[Master OF Haki]

There's no Conqueror mentality, it's a made up thing by the fanbase, Oda hands Conquerors' haki left and right whenever he needs to, there's no single trait connecting all known Conquerors haki users.

 

[Garp the Fist]

Zoro literally saying his ambition means nothing in comparison to the lives of Luffy and the crew. But you think Zoro wouldn’t abandon it and accept imprisonment if it meant saving the lives of Luffy and his crew.

As I said you are just going against Zoros character

There is a difference between life having given up on a dream, and dying following them.

If you don‘t get that, you don‘t get One Piece.

Baratie and WCI Sanji was on this path

Zoro has never been on this path

That’s the fundamental difference between the two. For One Piece, you’re better off dead that on the ugly timeline future.

 

[kekaro]

Someone needs to draw Zoro fighting Mohawk without feet

 

[Garp the Fist]

Look man, whatever you believe, it's cleaer I cannot change your mind.
So Sanji saying that his voyage ends there is final and binding until he dies, but cutting both his feet off is not a statement, Zoro will still try to be WSS while on a wheelchair.
Whatever you want to tell yoursef.

Nah bro, been clear throughout you just don‘t have a clue what you are talking about.

You’re literally arguing “abandon your stupid dream” like Sanji on Baratie lmao. Like arguing that Luffy taking Iva’s drug recovery at the cost of his own lifespan was the wrong move.

 

[Juanpiz]

Someone needs to draw Zoro fighting Mohawk without feet

Just put in shiki