Powers & Abilities Conqueror vs Non Conqueror Mentality
- Thread starter Blazing Lion
- Start date
That's cherrypicking though, no?
Luffy is seen doubting his ability to accomplish his dream after Ace died and only came back to his senses after the realization that he still has people left behind
If not for the existence of the rest of his crew this would've been the end of his journey
Why is it wrong for Sanji to skip this step entirely in order to stop his crew, father figure, and the rest of the sea cooks from dying?
Logically speaking he wasn't wrong about it. He still isn't wrong about it
There was nothing stopping Big Mom from sending assassins to the Baratie while the Strawhats were occupied in Wano. No amount of trust in Luffy would've prevented that and Sanji knew this going into it
Luffy is seen doubting his ability to accomplish his dream after Ace died and only came back to his senses after the realization that he still has people left behind
If not for the existence of the rest of his crew this would've been the end of his journey
Why is it wrong for Sanji to skip this step entirely in order to stop his crew, father figure, and the rest of the sea cooks from dying?
Logically speaking he wasn't wrong about it. He still isn't wrong about it
There was nothing stopping Big Mom from sending assassins to the Baratie while the Strawhats were occupied in Wano. No amount of trust in Luffy would've prevented that and Sanji knew this going into it
Literally, yes, that is exactly what Oda said was the right thing to do
Remember how he was chill and confident when everyone thought Luffy died against Kaido. Even reassured Chopper when he thought they were doomed.
@Garp the Fist Although I do get what you're trying to say and I can tell you're not trying to bash Sanji or anything, I think the big flaw in your reasoning is that you're making this about Sanji's dream specifically. It's not like he was afraid of dying and told himself his dream wasn't worth it or too hard to achieve, it was entirely about his kindness and absolute will to protect people he cares deeply about. It had nothing to do with his dream per se.
That's cherrypicking though, no?
Luffy is seen doubting his ability to accomplish his dream after Ace died and only came back to his senses after the realization that he still has people left behind
If not for the existence of the rest of his crew this would've been the end of his journey
Why is it wrong for Sanji to skip this step entirely in order to stop his crew, father figure, and the rest of the sea cooks from dying?
Luffy is seen doubting his ability to accomplish his dream after Ace died and only came back to his senses after the realization that he still has people left behind
If not for the existence of the rest of his crew this would've been the end of his journey
Why is it wrong for Sanji to skip this step entirely in order to stop his crew, father figure, and the rest of the sea cooks from dying?
But essentually we are going around in circles. I think that Luffy been shaken for, let‘s remember, about two minutes immediately after waking up from his coma, after everything he went through, is not anywhere near as comparable to Sanji deliberately choosing to give up because he thought it was the best thing to do.
And like I’ve said, it’s not wrong in the real world. It’s wrong in the OP world, where Oda’s consistent message is that it’s better to die trying to acheive your dream than give up. And where he’s literally made his fighting power system tied to how strong willed you are. The world where it is considered admirable to chop off your own limbs to try and keep fighting. Real world, that’s rather crazy.
Sanji is being praised for real world logic, even though his introduction arc is all about Luffy, Zoro and Zeff getting him to put real world logic aside and embrace One Piece world logic.
Again, you are confusing real world logic with OP world logic and the message that Oda is trying to send.
The message Oda has been consistent with throughout is go for your dreams, even if it seems impossible, even if you might die.
Sanji gives up on his dream, even though it seems logical, and the result would have been the death of him, and likely half his crew, and then the other half on Wano as they either try to fight Kaido or avenge the rest of the crew against BM.
Sanji goes back to his dream, and his crew survive. His father survives. His family survive. The only one who dies is Pedro, who is one of the very fee characters allowed by Oda to die because he wasn’t going to live long anyway and he got to die, you’ve guessed it, making sure that his dream is fulfilled.
Remember, Oda the man who has said from the very beginning that the reason that his villains don’t die is because to him, losing their dreams (i.e being beaten by Luffy) is as bad or worse than death.
Logically, it doesn’t make sense. I know that. The entire Zeff plot is actually just horrendously written, there’s no reason that Big Mom wouldn’t send assassins to punish him after WCI and we never even get an excuse like WCI took out her man power.
But it doesn’t change the fact that Oda unambiguously portrayed Sanji giving up his dream as bad, and choosing to go back to the SHs (and thus taking it up again) as good. So the end result is good. That’s how he rolls.
Post automatically merged:
Well, the thing is I don’t think the dream specifically matters.
Like, I don’t think it depends if it’s being the PK, WSS, map of the sea, brave man, all blue etc.
For example, everything I am saying here can apply to Robin on EL, in near enough the exact same circumstances. She gave up on her dream and was to try and save the crew, and it was unambiguously the wrong thing to do in OP world.
The right thing to do was trust Luffy and the crew, against all the forces of the World Gov, even though that would make as little logical sense as trying to trust Luffy would be able to deal with Big Mom and Germa.
Post automatically merged:
Lmao, it is unbelievable dishonesty to read “my adventure ends here” as anything other than giving up on his dream.
He didn’t sacrifice his life. He sacrified his dream. The two are seperate things You can die without giving up on your dream, and you can live while giving it up.
Sanji did not think he was going to die, he thought he was going to be trapped in an unfulfilling life away from the people he loved, unable to look for the thing he wanted to look for more than anything else. He did nothing to try and get out of his situation. He thought it was hopeless, so he gave up. And Oda made it clear that it was the wrong thing to do, and Sanji was living in a “fantasy world”.
And again, I am not saying that it stops Sanji being a CoC user. I am saying it shows his willpower is less than Luffy and Zoro’s, and he’s weaker than them because of that.
Last edited:
Even if we look at it like that, I don't think needing to be inspired by someone is necessarily an issue (in the sense that it automatically means "weaker will"). Luffy successfully convinced Sanji to fight and if he could do it, it means Sanji had that resolve in him, he just needed a little push. Someone truly lacking resolve can't be talked into doing something if they feel it's hopeless.
It's like Luffy being talked into hanging onto his dream after Ace's death, he just needed a little push by Jinbe. Ace also lost hope and needed a little push. Oden danced naked in the streets because he gave up on the idea of fighting Kaido and Orochi, the situation felt hopeless and he thought giving in was the only way out to protect Wano people, but eventually fought back.
If you can eventually find the strength to keep believing, even if someone helped you through that process, it's all that matters.
It's like Luffy being talked into hanging onto his dream after Ace's death, he just needed a little push by Jinbe. Ace also lost hope and needed a little push. Oden danced naked in the streets because he gave up on the idea of fighting Kaido and Orochi, the situation felt hopeless and he thought giving in was the only way out to protect Wano people, but eventually fought back.
If you can eventually find the strength to keep believing, even if someone helped you through that process, it's all that matters.
It’s not the same at all.
Sanji had resolved himself up to live (as far as he knew, not knowing that Big Mom planned to assassinate him) a long and unfulfilled life where he would grow old never going after All Blue, and do nothing else to help his crew.
Zoro has never done that. Zoro could not live with himself not aiming to be the WSS. He’s willing to die along the way, and he’s also added willing to die for Luffy along the way, but that is not the same as giving up his adventure and essentially retiring unfulfilled.
Zoro’s first interaction with Sanji spells this out.
Zoro knows his dream will likely lead to his death, but he‘s resolved to that. If he dies in the attempt, he‘s fine with it. But he would never say that “my adventure is over” and plan on living after it.
Luffy is the same
Like, the entire reason Sanji is inspired by the two on Baratie is because of this approach they have. I don’t know how people can pretend there isn’t a difference between Sanji and the other two when Sanji needed the other two’s influence to start his journey.
Boo hoo, stop crying. What’s pathetic is people unable to see any critique of Sanji without putting up the armour and starting the hissy fits.
Imagine complaining about context and mental gymnastics while not being able to see there’s a world of difference between dying trying to achieve your goal, and living having given it up.
If you can’t see the difference between attempting to die in the attempt, and living having given up, you need to go back to chapter 1 and have a full reread.
Also, you seriously think Luffy had given up on being PK in AL? He gave up on taking a boat out. He didn’t dramatically declare that his adventure was over and that his years of bliss had came to an end.
No, it’s different because Sanji was planning on living to a ripe old age with Pudding having given up on his life long ambition, while Zoro was resolved to die having fought every step of the way to achieve his dream.
Sanji had resolved himself up to live (as far as he knew, not knowing that Big Mom planned to assassinate him) a long and unfulfilled life where he would grow old never going after All Blue, and do nothing else to help his crew.
Zoro has never done that. Zoro could not live with himself not aiming to be the WSS. He’s willing to die along the way, and he’s also added willing to die for Luffy along the way, but that is not the same as giving up his adventure and essentially retiring unfulfilled.
Zoro’s first interaction with Sanji spells this out.
Zoro knows his dream will likely lead to his death, but he‘s resolved to that. If he dies in the attempt, he‘s fine with it. But he would never say that “my adventure is over” and plan on living after it.
Luffy is the same
Like, the entire reason Sanji is inspired by the two on Baratie is because of this approach they have. I don’t know how people can pretend there isn’t a difference between Sanji and the other two when Sanji needed the other two’s influence to start his journey.
Boo hoo, stop crying. What’s pathetic is people unable to see any critique of Sanji without putting up the armour and starting the hissy fits.
Imagine complaining about context and mental gymnastics while not being able to see there’s a world of difference between dying trying to achieve your goal, and living having given it up.
If you can’t see the difference between attempting to die in the attempt, and living having given up, you need to go back to chapter 1 and have a full reread.
Also, you seriously think Luffy had given up on being PK in AL? He gave up on taking a boat out. He didn’t dramatically declare that his adventure was over and that his years of bliss had came to an end.
No, it’s different because Sanji was planning on living to a ripe old age with Pudding having given up on his life long ambition, while Zoro was resolved to die having fought every step of the way to achieve his dream.
You have made an entire fan fiction in your head about what would Zoro do or wouldn't?
Sanji was willing not only to die, but to sacrifice the whole baratie to keep his ideal intact, when he fed Krieg and the other guy. Only Luffy's existence prevented this from happening.
Are you going to acknowledge this? Of course you won't because it goes against your narrative.
Are you going to acknowledge Sanji almost dying with Khalifa because his morals are more important than anything? Of course not.
You take a panel out of context and build a narrative around it, because you're intellectually dishonest.
Sanji has always put "doing the right thing" above himself.
Feeding the hungry and protecting women. Then himself.
None once he "gave up his dream". He just had to do what was right, and it was protecting Zeff. Just like Luffy ignored his dream and went to save Ace. Had he given up on his dream at that point?
Just like Zori put Luffy before himself.
I am asking you a question, without a boat Luffy doesn't leave Amazon Lily, and he was hellbent on joining back with the crew. Is he giving up on his crew and his PK dream?
And before you ask if I am crying, please answer all my questions, because otherwise you look like the dishonest zoro wanker you are depicting yourself as.
Post automatically merged:
Why would he read it, Zoro is not in it
Pretending to give up isn't the same as actually giving up
Even when Luffy was beating Sanji, he reminds himself about the reasons why he joined the crew initially, even if he knew that after that point he wouldn't deserve going back to the crew.
"My adventure ends here" doesn't equal "My ambitions ends here" lol, it was a situational thing on which Sanji had to inhale a lot of Copium trying to convince himself it was all good if it meant the assuring the crew, Zeff and Co's safety over his own life.
Even when Luffy was beating Sanji, he reminds himself about the reasons why he joined the crew initially, even if he knew that after that point he wouldn't deserve going back to the crew.
"My adventure ends here" doesn't equal "My ambitions ends here" lol, it was a situational thing on which Sanji had to inhale a lot of Copium trying to convince himself it was all good if it meant the assuring the crew, Zeff and Co's safety over his own life.
Hahahahah @Garp the Fist bodying Begjitards. Now we get cope of my adventure ends here means not giving up on my dream.
Well again, I’m not saying Sanji lacks resolve, I’m saying that he does not have has strong as resolve as Luffy and Zoro and that‘s why he is weaker than them. I don’t see how anyone can think that Luffy and Zoro would have given up on WCI the way that Sanji did.
I think Oden’s actually the exact opposite- he never gave up his goal of opening Wano’s borders. His deal with Kaido didn’t have anything to do with his dream. He was content to make a deal with Kaido and Orochi to save the people of Wano at the cost of his own dignity, but the second they broke the deal he went after them. Then when it was clear that he was going to die, he made sure to pass his dream over to the Scabbards so that it would be fulfilled.
No, I do not think Zoro would ever consent to life imprisonment and giving up on his dream. The person threatening Luffy would need to kill Zoro as well.
He didn‘t “pretend” to give up.
There was no cunning plan by Sanji to fool everyone, get out of his situation and resume his life. He genuinely saw no way out and gave up on his dream and his crew.
You’re the one crying, lmao, jumping in on a conversation because of a few digs at Sanji fanboys.
You also genuinely don‘t know what the fuck you are talking about.
Sanji feeding the pirates was admirable when he was going to fight them off.
Sanji was not willing to sacrifice the ship, was going to give up and die instead, and Luffy outright called him a coward for it.
You going to look at the above and tell me that this is actually Sanji showing strong self character? When the main character is literally calling him a coward for what he was doing.
Nah, you see, I actually understand the character and can see that he is flawed.
I am not saying that Sanji is not brave, or does not have willpower, or cannot get CoC.
I’m saying he does not have the willpower that Luffy or Zoro does, and that’s been clearly demonstrated by his Baratie and WCI actions. Oda literally has him criticised by Luffy both times for and you sadcases are trying to pretend that
What Sanji did against Kalifa was not the right thing and deserved no praise, fyi. He should have left the fight immediately, rather than sit and have tea with her, then let himself get beat up.
What he did against Black Maria where he asked for help was then the right thing, where he actually trusted Robin to do what he couldn’t and get him out of the mess he was in.
Imagine talking about intellectual dishonesty and trying to argue with a straight face that Sanji is not giving up on his dreams here.
At what point when Luffy was going after Ace did he ignore his dream? What is this shit you are coming up with?
How has he ignored his dream when he‘s telling Whitebeard of all people to shut up because he’s going to be PK?
No, because Luffy obviously did not consider refusing Hancock’s ship to be the end of his journey and dream, lmao. He wasn’t going to stop looking for being PK. If they still didn’t let him leave he would have either tried to sneak outmor just went back to plan A of punching out Hancock.
You genuinely think this
Is the face of a man who has accepted he is never going to achieve his life long dream and will live on Amazon Lily for the rest of his life lmao?
That is the same as this scene?
There’s some cheek you talking about intellectual dishonesty lmao.
Luffy would have tried to build another raft and risk drown himself rather than staying on Amazon Lily
I think Oden’s actually the exact opposite- he never gave up his goal of opening Wano’s borders. His deal with Kaido didn’t have anything to do with his dream. He was content to make a deal with Kaido and Orochi to save the people of Wano at the cost of his own dignity, but the second they broke the deal he went after them. Then when it was clear that he was going to die, he made sure to pass his dream over to the Scabbards so that it would be fulfilled.
No, I do not think Zoro would ever consent to life imprisonment and giving up on his dream. The person threatening Luffy would need to kill Zoro as well.
Pretending to give up isn't the same as actually giving up
Even when Luffy was beating Sanji, he reminds himself about the reasons why he joined the crew initially, even if he knew that after that point he wouldn't deserve going back to the crew.
"My adventure ends here" doesn't equal "My ambitions ends here" lol, it was a situational thing on which Sanji had to inhale a lot of Copium trying to convince himself it was all good if it meant the assuring the crew, Zeff and Co's safety over his own life.
Even when Luffy was beating Sanji, he reminds himself about the reasons why he joined the crew initially, even if he knew that after that point he wouldn't deserve going back to the crew.
"My adventure ends here" doesn't equal "My ambitions ends here" lol, it was a situational thing on which Sanji had to inhale a lot of Copium trying to convince himself it was all good if it meant the assuring the crew, Zeff and Co's safety over his own life.
There was no cunning plan by Sanji to fool everyone, get out of his situation and resume his life. He genuinely saw no way out and gave up on his dream and his crew.
You’re the one crying, lmao, jumping in on a conversation because of a few digs at Sanji fanboys.
You also genuinely don‘t know what the fuck you are talking about.
Sanji feeding the pirates was admirable when he was going to fight them off.
Sanji was not willing to sacrifice the ship, was going to give up and die instead, and Luffy outright called him a coward for it.
You going to look at the above and tell me that this is actually Sanji showing strong self character? When the main character is literally calling him a coward for what he was doing.
Nah, you see, I actually understand the character and can see that he is flawed.
I am not saying that Sanji is not brave, or does not have willpower, or cannot get CoC.
I’m saying he does not have the willpower that Luffy or Zoro does, and that’s been clearly demonstrated by his Baratie and WCI actions. Oda literally has him criticised by Luffy both times for and you sadcases are trying to pretend that
What Sanji did against Kalifa was not the right thing and deserved no praise, fyi. He should have left the fight immediately, rather than sit and have tea with her, then let himself get beat up.
What he did against Black Maria where he asked for help was then the right thing, where he actually trusted Robin to do what he couldn’t and get him out of the mess he was in.
Imagine talking about intellectual dishonesty and trying to argue with a straight face that Sanji is not giving up on his dreams here.
At what point when Luffy was going after Ace did he ignore his dream? What is this shit you are coming up with?
How has he ignored his dream when he‘s telling Whitebeard of all people to shut up because he’s going to be PK?
No, because Luffy obviously did not consider refusing Hancock’s ship to be the end of his journey and dream, lmao. He wasn’t going to stop looking for being PK. If they still didn’t let him leave he would have either tried to sneak outmor just went back to plan A of punching out Hancock.
You genuinely think this
Is the face of a man who has accepted he is never going to achieve his life long dream and will live on Amazon Lily for the rest of his life lmao?
That is the same as this scene?
There’s some cheek you talking about intellectual dishonesty lmao.
Luffy would have tried to build another raft and risk drown himself rather than staying on Amazon Lily