Powers & Abilities Does Sanji have Hardening?

Does Sanji have Hardening?

  • Yes

  • No


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Cinera

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#1
I recently started thinking that Sanji probably does have hardening. If so, he likely had it for most of post timeskip and didn't suddenly unlock it (there hasn't been any moment where he "awakened" his haki like Don Sai or Usopp did in Dressrosa). I would explain below why I think he has hardening, the reasons for scepticism, and what would change my mind.


The Case For
There have been two separate instances where Sanji displayed shading that looked like hardening.

The first was when he kicked Drake in his Zoan form:

The next was when he blocked Kanjuro's arrows:

The shading that looks like koka in the above instances are in the red ovals. The common counterargument to these claims points out the vagueness of the supposed uses of hardening, how unclear the shading is, etc. If Oda wanted us to know Sanji was using hardening in these moments he could have made it clear. Oda is not going to let Sanji's first use of hardening in the manga be some irrelevant side panels that are so ambiguous.

I think the counterargument is decent, but I'm not really convinced of its veracity. A very similar argument was raised when Jinbe first displayed shading that looks like hardening:

However, Jinbe later went on to demonstrate hardening much more unambiguously:

Looking at the similarities between the two panels, I think the former panel was an instance of hardening and Jinbe's first demonstrated instance of hardening. This substantially lowers my credence in the claim that Oda wouldn't depict Hardening so unambiguously when a character first demonstrates it โ€” he seems to have done just that for Jinbe โ€” as a result, I'm willing to more seriously entertain the hypothesis that those instances of shading were in fact hardening.


In addition to the above two instances, there's another case which might have been hardening, when Sanji blocked Daifuku Genie's spear:

Admittedly, this is extremely ambiguous and vague. The shading in the red oval (where he presumably used hardening) is not noticeably different from the shading in the blue oval (where he presumably did not use hardening, even in the anime (only one leg appears to be hardened)). You can't meaningfully distinguish Sanji using hardening from not in that panel. I initially did not even think to include it as I never noticed hardening at all when I initially saw the scene (@Yo Tan Wa and @Sadistic Senpai are the ones who brought to my attention that it might have been a display of hardening). I mainly include it for completion.

A case for it being hardening would be that blocking such a massive bladed attack would have required colour of armaments haki. However, a counter would be that mere invisible COA (e.g Tashigi vs Monet) may suffice (and Sanji did appear to use invisible haki when he fought Judge). However, the anime rendition of the scene also depicts it as hardening:

Toei may have consulted Oda before depicting this scene, so this is evidence in favour of it being hardening. However, the anime also depicted Batman as having hardening (and at the level of being able to block a blow from Luffy), and takes many other artistic liberties in their depiction of fights. As a result, I think this is very weak evidence.

The Daifuku scene does not noticeably raise my credence in Sanji having hardening. I include it to make my analysis more complete, and because others may grant different credences to the anime depiction of the scene (or be sceptical that mere invisible COA could have blocked the Genie's attack).



What makes the hardening explanation more compelling to me is that we have not one but two (or three if you count the Daifuku scene) instances where Sanji may have demonstrated hardening. If we accept that Oda is willing to depict initial uses of hardening so unambiguously, then there is not much reason to doubt that the aforementioned instances are hardening. The fact that the phenomenon has repeated itself makes it even more convincing. Furthermore, on priors I would expect a fighter of Sanji's calibre to be capable of using hardening. It seems to be common even among characters much weaker than Sanji (Raisin, Opera brothers, etc). I'm aware that strict tier logic doesn't apply to haki (Aisa had island level range with her COO from birth, and the preskip Boa sisters could use Ryuo), but these examples seem to be rare and appear to be exceptions not the rule. Top veteran level characters without devil fruit abilities (what Pre RS Sanji was) should be able to use hardening. Especially as we already know Sanji has COA.


The Case Against
That said, I am not all that confident in Sanji having hardening. There have been many instances where he had cause to reveal hardening but he did not.
  • Against Vergo (he even got his shin bones fractured).
  • Against Doflamingo (to enhance his attacks).
  • Against Judge.
    • He outright used haki in his fight with Judge.

The most common counterargument to Sanji not using hardening in those instances was that Oda was holding off on revealing Sanji's hardening until an important moment (e.g. Zoro didn't use Koka until his fight with Pica, and Sanji has yet to have an extensive 1 vs 1 confrontation where he triumphed postskip). That explanation for Sanji not using hardening prior makes sense, but if we accepted it, then we would expect Oda not to reveal Sanji's hardening in such an unambiguous fashion. If you don't accept the counterargument, then the question of why Sanji didn't use hardening before remains.

The other counterargument (and one I don't have much credence in) is that Oda did not depict Sanji using hardening before because it would have been hard to show with his black suit. I do not buy this for a few reasons:
  • All uses of hardening have lustre to them (Sanji's suit doesn't have lustre, so hardening applied to his feet may have shown just fine).
  • Hardening is still applied to black objects such as swords, and IIRC Don Sai also wore black shoes but Oda had no problem depicting his hardening.
  • The excuse completely does not apply to Diable Jambe at all.
  • Sanji was in a white suit for most of WCI, and Oda had the perfect opportunity to depict him using hardening but failed to do so. The scene were he blocked Daifuku's Genie's blade would have been perfect.

No matter how I see it, either the instances above are not instances of hardening, or the question of why Sanji did not display hardening previously lacks a satisfying answer.

I have heard some people mention Sanji receiving the Raid Suit as an argument that he likely doesn't have hardening as the Raid Suit obviates the need for hardening, but I have very little credence in that argument:
  • Hardening can still be applied on top of the Raid Suit thus enhancing it's durability even further.
  • Hardening also increases the attack power of attacks, so it serves a larger purpose than just boosting durability.
  • The Raid Suit obviating the need for hardening would suggest that even at the end of the series Sanji still wouldn't have hardening, and I find that extremely unlikely.

Another argument against Sanji having hardening is that Luffy and Zoro's first uses of hardening were highlighted. While Jinbe did not have a highlighted first use, he has hardly been in the same circumstances as Sanji; prior to WCI, there wasn't any opportunity for Jinbe to demonstrate hardening. Furthermore, Jinbe is simply just not as important a character as Sanji is. If the other members of the "monster trio" had highlighted first uses of hardening, then we should expect that Sanji's first use would be highlighted as well. That this didn't happen is indicative that Sanji has not yet used hardening.

I am not really aware of any good counterarguments to the above. I think it's plausible and have some credence in it, it makes me significantly less confident that the aforementioned instances are indeed hardening.


Conclusion
All things considered, I cannot say that I am very confident that Sanji has hardening, but I have (slightly) more credence in him having hardening than not. The main reason is probably that my prior for Sanji having hardening is reasonably high, so starting with the prior expectations I have, the evidence on ground is not enough for me to update towards Sanji not having hardening (I think the balance of evidence is ambiguous, but slightly favours Sanji having hardening). However, not everyone would share my priors, and given that the evidence isn't very compelling, I don't really expect there to be consensus at this point in time. I think both positions are reasonable to hold (for example, I am significantly less confident that Sanji has hardening than when I started writing this post).

If the following things happened, I would update towards being wrong and conclude that Sanji most likely didn't have hardening at the beginning of Wano:
  • Sanji does not display hardening in a much less ambiguous fashion (akin to the Jinbe "Sharkskin scene") in all of Wano.
  • Sanji has a moment of "awakening" prior to his unambiguous display of hardening.

What do you guys think? Does Sanji have hardening? Which (if any) of the mentioned instances were displays of hardening?


 
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#5
Regardless if he had it or not
The best panel was not those two actually

It was Sanji's clash with Daifuku by the end of WCI arc, with Toei animation ALSO revealing it ambigeousl very fast... as if they also did hardening without showing it clearly too...

The shading was better than those two examples you gave.

I don't believe Sanji used hardening in the Drake example you gave, in fact I don't believe Sanji kicked him even, I believe it was a Jump using the force of Drake head swing... specially if you payed attention to physics of the fight:
1- We had Sanji take Otoko, from Zoro

2- Drake appeared behind him, slams an attak on Sanji to the ground, Sanji jumps back

3- While Sanji is mid-air, Drake was aiming to catch him in air and swing his head to hit him

4- Sanji used the momentum of Drake's swing and jumped back using his head

That's how I read that panel honestly

As for best hint of hardening it was two scenes:

1- Sanji blocking Judge Spear, where Judge commented on Sanji's haki, also one of the Germa soldiers commented he was surprised he stopped the Tip of the spear which is a blade! So, evidence point that his leg was hardened to actually block a blade without getting chopped

2- Daifuku panel, cause not only the shading was better, but also Toei, did the hardening but in a very small glimpse way
 
#6
Sanji blocking Judge Spear, where Judge commented on Sanji's haki, also one of the Germa soldiers commented he was surprised he stopped the Tip of the spear which is a blade! So, evidence point that his leg was hardened to actually block a blade without getting chopped
That was invisible Haki tho.
The first was when he kicked Drake in his Zoan form:
I dont consider this hardening, or more so i dont want to since it didn't damage Drake. I believe hardening attacks to atleast damage the opponent somewhat more so when they don't use Hardening to defend emself. Maybe i am being biased, bt this would be weakass if it is an attack itself, rest alone Hardening attack.

Bt like @Sadistic Senpai pointed out there's another instance that can show Sanji using Hardenin, that is End of WCI arc when Sanji stops Daifuku bigger genie attack, the manga panels is very ambiguous bt anime cleared it as Sanji using Hardening, and given his prior confrontation with Daifuku genie, it make sense why Sanji so easily stopped that attack. It make most sense he used Hardening there.
The most common counterargument to Sanji not using hardening in those instances was that Oda was holding off on revealing Sanji's hardening until an important moment (e.g. Zoro didn't use Koka until his fight with Pica, and Sanji has yet to have an extensive 1 vs 1 confrontation where he triumphed postskip).
That explanation for Sanji not using hardening prior makes sense, but if we accepted it, then we would expect Oda not to reveal Sanji's hardening in such an unambiguous fashion.
Actually it do make sense if one consider the overall contexts of those fights Sanji engaged in, he wasn't supposed to dominate his opponents and something Like Hardening making appearance there wouldn't have helped that happening.

Plus a PU is supposed to make an appearance where it is supposed to get the job done, like you stated you expect Zoro to finish his opponent when he uses Asura else it would come as underwhelming, this is why i believe Oda didn't let Sanji use Hardening there, it would mess up with how Oda wanted the fight to go there and if Sanji still used Hardening and outcome were same, it would come as underwhelming PU.
The main reason is probably that my prior for Sanji having hardening is already reasonably high, so starting with the prior expectations I have, the evidence on ground is not enough for me to update towards Sanji not having hardening (I think the balance of evidence favours Sanji having hardening.
That is valid reason for your opinion and i liked how opn minded you were about this.

Overall, i think Sanji do have Hardening and Oda used these instances to hint it prior to fight, since he might as well be saving more PU for Sanji in that fight, and if for no hints, it would come off as Sanji getting multiple PUs just so he can beat his opponent.
Sanji already having Hardening which again is no big PU, makes sense from evry angle for a fighter of his calibre, it's most basic and necessary thing a fighter needs and if Okama didn't taught him so, it question the entire point of training.
 

Cinera

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#11
Regardless if he had it or not
The best panel was not those two actually

It was Sanji's clash with Daifuku by the end of WCI arc, with Toei animation ALSO revealing it ambigeousl very fast... as if they also did hardening without showing it clearly too...

The shading was better than those two examples you gave.
2- Daifuku panel, cause not only the shading was better, but also Toei, did the hardening but in a very small glimpse way
Bt like @Sadistic Senpai pointed out there's another instance that can show Sanji using Hardenin, that is End of WCI arc when Sanji stops Daifuku bigger genie attack, the manga panels is very ambiguous bt anime cleared it as Sanji using Hardening, and given his prior confrontation with Daifuku genie, it make sense why Sanji so easily stopped that attack. It make most sense he used Hardening there.
@Cinera
Chapter 899
At 0.33 secs.
I've added the scene to the OP, and I gave my thoughts on it:
In addition to the above two instances, there's another case which might have been hardening, when Sanji blocked Daifuku Genie's spear:
Admittedly, this is extremely ambiguous and vague. I initially did not even think to include it as I never noticed hardening at all when I initially saw the scene (@Yo Tan Wa and @Sadistic Senpai are the ones who brought to my attention that it might have been a display of hardening). I mainly include it for completion.

A case for it being hardening would be that blocking such a massive bladed attack would have required haki. However, a counter would be that mere invisible haki may suffice (and Sanji did appear to use invisible haki when he fought Judge). However, the anime rendition of the scene also depicts it as hardening:
Toei may have consulted Oda before depicting this scene, so this is evidence in favour of it being hardening. However, the anime also depicted Batman as having hardening (and at the level of being able to block a blow from Luffy), and takes many other artistic liberties in their depiction of fights. As a result, I think this is very weak evidence.

The Daifuku scene does not noticeably raise my credence in Sanji having hardening. I include it to make my analysis more complete, and because others may grant different credences to the anime depiction of the scene (or be sceptical that mere invisible COA could have blocked the Genie's attack).
@Sadistic Senpai I vehemently disagree that the shading is in anyway better or it is less ambiguous. Sanji's leg that has hardening is not noticeably different from his leg that doesn't have hardening. There isn't really any good reason to think that shading was hardening beyond the fact that the scene requires haki (moot if Sanji can only use invisible COA), and that the anime used hardening (the anime also gave batman hardening, so it's not really convincing). As a result, the Daifuku scene did not noticeably raise my credence in Sanji having hardening.

I don't believe Sanji used hardening in the Drake example you gave, in fact I don't believe Sanji kicked him even, I believe it was a Jump using the force of Drake head swing... specially if you payed attention to physics of the fight:
1- We had Sanji take Otoko, from Zoro

2- Drake appeared behind him, slams an attak on Sanji to the ground, Sanji jumps back

3- While Sanji is mid-air, Drake was aiming to catch him in air and swing his head to hit him

4- Sanji used the momentum of Drake's swing and jumped back using his head

That's how I read that panel honestly
I dont consider this hardening, or more so i dont want to since it didn't damage Drake. I believe hardening attacks to atleast damage the opponent somewhat more so when they don't use Hardening to defend emself. Maybe i am being biased, bt this would be weakass if it is an attack itself, rest alone Hardening attack.
I'm going to be very frank here, this sounds like mere wishful thinking because you don't want Sanji's use of hardening to have been so underwhelming. Apart from expecting Sanji to have hardening (most fighters of his calibre are capable of it, and haki is especially important to him as a non DF user), I don't have any relevant biases here. I don't particularly care whether or not Sanji was strong enough to damage Drake if he kicked him with a hardened leg. What it looks like to me is that Sanji kicked Drake. I may be wrong about that, but it appears to be the most straightforward interpretation of the scene. I might reread the scene later though.

Sanji's leg has the exact same lustre that is present in other instances of hardening (they resemble Jinbe's fists for example). Of the three examples cited, this is the one that looks most like hardening to me (my problem with the Kanjuro ink arrows scene is that it covers a small portion of his face (not all of his face as I would expect), and his hands don't appear to be hardened either).


Actually it do make sense if one consider the overall contexts of those fights Sanji engaged in, he wasn't supposed to dominate his opponents and something Like Hardening making appearance there wouldn't have helped that happening.

Plus a PU is supposed to make an appearance where it is supposed to get the job done, like you stated you expect Zoro to finish his opponent when he uses Asura else it would come as underwhelming, this is why i believe Oda didn't let Sanji use Hardening there, it would mess up with how Oda wanted the fight to go there and if Sanji still used Hardening and outcome were same, it would come as underwhelming PU.
You misunderstand me; the hypothesis that Sanji hasn't used hardening because Oda is saving it for a special reveal does make sense, but that hypothesis also predicts that Sanji will not use hardening before that special reveal. If you believe that hypothesis, you wouldn't expect Sanji to use hardening until he gets his major fight in Wano. The instances I mentioned being hardening is not compatible with Oda saving Sanji's hardening for a special reveal. Thus:
No matter how I see it, either the instances above are not instances of hardening, or the question of why Sanji did not display hardening previously lacks a satisfying answer.

luffy stated in Punk hazard him zoro and sanji where the ones capable of capturing a logia type as Cesar and as we know CoA is necessary.
Not all uses of COA are hardening. For example, Tashigi used invisible COA on her sword when fighting Monet.


One thing I would say for sure is his epithet itself implies he has hardening XD
This would suggest that he had hardening preskip no? I don't think this is a good argument.
 
#12
Sanji hasnโ€™t shown that he has hardening yet in the manga.

- Zoom in on Sanji kick vs Drake then look at Jinbe Hardening. Thereโ€™s a clear difference.

- Also look at how Oda introduces Luffy and Zoroโ€™s CoA hardening. If Sanji uses Hardening Oda will make a big scene about it like he did for Luffy and Zoro

- Next Sanjiโ€™s had multiple opportunities to showcase this technique yet he hasnโ€™t so that makes me think he either is stupid or he doesnโ€™t have it yet. Heโ€™ll likely use hardening against Queen or whoever he fights in Onigashima.
 
#15
@Cinera you also forgot/omitted the fact that if Sanji can't use hardening, the second he does he leapfrogs Zoro (by quite some distance) given some of his feats against Oven, Daifuku and Wadatsumi - which obviously isnt something that is going to happen. Imagine having that much AP without using strong CoA - it just seems ridiculous to me

Plus, Oda has never depicted hardening on something fluid like flames - Sabo can use it, but we never saw it visibly drawn in conjunction with his fire. Sanji using DJ or HM - if he used hardening, we would never be aware of it simply due to how it is drawn. It also doesn't help that Sanji typically wears black. We now have a way to know though, because of the raid suit having white boots. If he can't use HM/DJ whilst wearing the suit, we will be shown hardening very shortly.

it's obvious he can use hardening. Canon episodes of the anime are still story canon even if the Manga is a more reliable source. The animation studios consult Oda before drawing and animating a lot of their scenes and have done so ever since they got Kuma's colour scheme wrong back in thriller bark
 
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#18
Yes, I do believe Sanji has hardening.

The second panel of Sanji blocking Kajuro's arrows was one of the most significant pieces of evidence for me, with it being the least vague example. The second being the Daifuku block. While being the most vague you can make out the difference in shading between the attack leg and the other. Anime does back it up, but due to its track record of changing shit it puts the credibility into question. Though I havent seem them casually handing out hardening to any of the other SHs so there's that. A slight possibility that's the case, which I will personally take. Toei seems more willing to hand out strength buffs to the antagonists than the protags.

The Drake example, I have my doubts is hardening at all. As that didnt even seem like an attack, but Sanji taking advantage of Drake's head swinging and using it to push himself backwards.

As for why Oda isnt being outright with Sanji's hardening there's two likely possibilities:

1) While Sanji's most proficient color is CoO. He must have decent hardening, which boosts his AP to a level significant enough that it would be impossible to have fights go the way Oda wants if Sanji really let loose. In other words, those veterans wouldnt have did as well as they did against Sanji, and Vergo would be fucked up before facing off against Smoker and Law. Oda pulls the same shit with Luffy and Zoro when he wants to drag out fights. Most recent example is the Apoo encounter and Luffy's FS not working as it should, Zoro didnt even bother with hardening in his fight with Killer until the very end. He is "Black Leg" Sanji afterall lol

2) Most likely the case that Oda is saving the reveal for a new DJ and Hardening combination effect. So he thinks its better to show it vaguely before the big reveal. Like he did with Jimbe and his Sharkskin.
 

Marimo_420

The Honoured One
โ€Ž
#19
I do believe Sanji can does use hardening, for the simple fact that he's top 4 in the crew, and he's a powerhouse in his on right.

It would be pathetic if characters like Bellamy, and marine fodders can utilize this skill and Sanji can't.

For why it's not been shown, I have no clue but I'm 99 percent sure he can pull it of right now. No need to awakening it.

Most of the crew should have also been able to pull this off post timeskip but apparently they don't even know wtf haki is.
 
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