Character Discussion Does Zoro's progress make sense?

[Jackteo]

The truth is that we don't know what Zoro power ceiling is. There's a reason why Oda is waiting to show the post-ts upgrade of Ashura.

Actually we know: he is certainly weaker than post WCI Luffy, if not Luffy's flashbacks would be meaningless. And this is the best case scenario of course, imo Zoro isn't even above post DR Luffy

 

[LadyVados]

Actually we know: he is certainly weaker than post WCI Luffy, if not Luffy's flashbacks would be meaningless. And this is the best case scenario of course, imo Zoro isn't even above post DR Luffy

What bs, what do flashbacks have to do with power.

 

[Marimo_420]

Actually we know: he is certainly weaker than post WCI Luffy, if not Luffy's flashbacks would be meaningless. And this is the best case scenario of course, imo Zoro isn't even above post DR Luffy

Just to make it clear, we're talking about Zoro here, not Sanjino.

 

[Jackteo]

What bs, what do flashbacks have to do with power.

You have to convince Oda not me

 

[Shisui]

Yes I still believe that Zoro can't face Kaido in a 1 on 1, but I do believe that 2 Zoros are defeating 1 Kaido finally.

In the past, years ago, I would rather believe that 2 Zoros were defeating a Marco at best.

Stay off the weeeeeeed fam....No way is Two Zoros getting past the scabbards let alone Kaido...

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

Whitebeard and Roger were clashing. Oden attempted to but got swated out of that match-up.
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Oda's making excuses on the cover page of this chapter as well, when the presence of a woman makes it so that he get's repeatedly smacked in the head with the stick

An unbiased person will 100% of the time accept that what happened with Sanji, happened because it was a trap that involved women

Do you scale PrimeWB and Roger above yonko? Or exactly equals?
Cause if you scale them above, then Roger attack should have finished Oden the same way Kaido finished "Luffy" in one attack, same way BM fucked Queen in two casual attacks.

Oden was bleeding sure, but relatively fine running and ready to get back and fight
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The difference between Whitebeard and Ace's deaths and "Kaido being killed" is in Oda's interviews on how he feels about death in manga. Oda doesn't kill villains because it does nothing for the overall benefit of the Story. Whitebeard and Ace's death benefited the story as a whole, as does every flashback death he's ever done.

Kaido dying would be nothing but pure shock value and fanservice for a select group of fans. And the shock value would be greatly diminished due to it being what everyone is predicting would happen. Nobody predicted Whitebeard and Ace would die, because at the time it was unheard of, and Oda was able to capitalize off of that, and it worked. It was emotional for a lot of fans, and still is for some. It is something that left a lasting impression, while at the same time made complete sense as to why it had to be done.

There is none of that with Kaido dying, and has the exact opposite effect. A Villain finally gets their dream fulfilled? What the shit is this? What makes Kaido so special compared to all the other villains who came before him, who had their dreams crushed and they had to live with that, knowing they'll never achieve their dreams?

There is nothing being setup here that absolutely requires Kaido dying in order for the manga to have to move forward. It goes against Oda's principles, and mindset that people having to live with their failure, is a fate far worse than death. But nah, lets just go ahead and kill Kaido, because... Because.... Because REASONS!

I don't believe Kaido will die this war

I believe Kaido's theme of "wanting to die" has a certain path:
1- Oda will put him in a situation where he's about to die, BUT not in a glorofied Death, a death Unfitting for his status, a death Kaido would deem unworthy to make his life ending "glorious"

2- Kaido in that moment will "want to live" he will have an internal monologue that he doesn't want to die like this!

3- Later down against WG, I believe they are the ones with secrets about how to kill Dragons, specially Gorosei. I believe Yamato will join crew, thus in final war, Kaido's involvement is dying for Yamato (which will be a glorofied death on the grandest biggest war) as he wanted and for an epic cause, which is his daughter.

That's what I believe... this arc I believe will just end in Kaido's defeat, his crew will take him away on a ship and retreat in similar manner to how Absalom after being defeated he sailed away with Dr. Hogback. Similarly, maybe Jack and someone else retreats and takes Kaido with him

 

[Kuro Ashi]

Do you scale PrimeWB and Roger above yonko? Or exactly equals?
Cause if you scale them above, then Roger attack should have finished Oden the same way Kaido finished "Luffy" in one attack, same way BM fucked Queen in two casual attacks.

Oden was bleeding sure, but relatively fine running and ready to get back and fight

Oden got bloody and all while clashing blades with Roger.

If he got smacked in the head cleanly the way Luffy was by Kaido's club, the result would obviously be way worse.

For example we can see Marco clashing with Big Mom fine enough and not get thrown across the island all bloody in this arc.

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

Oden got bloody and all while clashing blades with Roger.

If he got smacked in the head cleanly the way Luffy was by Kaido's club, the result would obviously be way worse.

For example we can see Marco clashing with Big Mom fine enough and not get thrown across the island all bloody in this arc.

hmmm...
I see where you're coming from... even though we disagree on the whole Oden level, cause I do think that he's around Yonko

 

[Kuro Ashi]

hmmm...
I see where you're coming from... even though we disagree on the whole Oden level, cause I do think that he's around Yonko

I think we have a history of overrating characters in the grand scheme of things as a community.

Yonko is pretty much the peak of power in One Piece. I'd rather not hand it over as guaranteed to characters until it's beyond doubt.

From what i've seen from Oden, i have reasons to doubt, so i'm not going to jump in that train yet.

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

I think we have a history of overrating characters in the grand scheme of things as a community.

Yonko is pretty much the peak of power in One Piece. I'd rather not hand it over as guaranteed to characters until it's beyond doubt.

From what i've seen from Oden, i have reasons to doubt, so i'm not going to jump in that train yet.

Not Oden though....
I don't believe for one second he's less than the likes of Kaido/Shanks/BigMom...etc
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I think we have a history of overrating characters in the grand scheme of things as a community.

Yonko is pretty much the peak of power in One Piece. I'd rather not hand it over as guaranteed to characters until it's beyond doubt.

From what i've seen from Oden, i have reasons to doubt, so i'm not going to jump in that train yet.

I believe WB himself agrees to it simply by considering him "brother" and NOT son... where WB held him to a higher rank immediately and also stated that he's someone who should have his own crew

Let's not forget who did WB have on his crew as "his sons" and how strong these commanders

 

[Kuro Ashi]

Not Oden though....
I don't believe for one second he's less than the likes of Kaido/Shanks/BigMom...etc
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I believe WB himself agrees to it simply by considering him "brother" and NOT son... where WB held him to a higher rank immediately and also stated that he's someone who should have his own crew

Let's not forget who did WB have on his crew as "his sons" and how strong these commanders

It doesn't sound all that different from the relation Ben seems to have with Shanks.

I also don't see Oden while in Roger's crew having a higher standing than Rayleigh and Scopper.

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

It doesn't sound all that different from the relation Ben seems to have with Shanks.

I also don't see Oden while in Roger's crew having a higher standing than Rayleigh and Scopper.

Nah nah nah... here is where we differ
I already put Rayleigh as Yonko level... and secondly, Roger called Rayleigh "partner"

I don't see the likes of Kaido or BM calling Katakuri or King as "partners"... EVER...
And you cannot just blame it on the idea that they are villains, cause that doesn't matter... villains do have their own side characterizations like how Doffy cared for his crew, or how Kaido felt bad about sneak shotting Oden...etc and so on
Oden/Rayleigh/Zoro (as much as it pains me as a Sanji fan LOL) are treated way differently than other right hand men... period.

As for Ben... we haven't seen enough to actually state that.. At least, I personally didn't see enough... because I don't rely on databook or vivre cards.. LOL they are trash of a source.. I just know he's vice captain, and that's all

 

[Kuro Ashi]

Nah nah nah... here is where we differ
I already put Rayleigh as Yonko level... and secondly, Roger called Rayleigh "partner"

I don't see the likes of Kaido or BM calling Katakuri or King as "partners"... EVER...
And you cannot just blame it on the idea that they are villains, cause that doesn't matter... villains do have their own side characterizations like how Doffy cared for his crew, or how Kaido felt bad about sneak shotting Oden...etc and so on
Oden/Rayleigh/Zoro (as much as it pains me as a Sanji fan LOL) are treated way differently than other right hand men... period.

As for Ben... we haven't seen enough to actually state that.. At least, I personally didn't see enough... because I don't rely on databook or vivre cards.. LOL they are trash of a source.. I just know he's vice captain, and that's all

Rayleigh and Scopper both stepped up as capable to defeat Oden though when the Roger Pirates encountered the Whitebeard Pirates.

Doffy called Vergo partner though, would you put Vergo on Doffy's level because of that ?

Oden was closer in age to Whitebeard when he joined the Whitebeard Pirates, while Marco was a teenager. It makes sense for Whitebeard to continue to call Marco his son, since he was so young when he joined his crew, regardless of how strong he would eventually become. I would not take the difference in their relationship as a definitive indicator that Oden is meant to be not only stronger than Marco was back then, but also stronger than Marco could have hope to become.

 

[Zowo]

btw pica is yc2

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

Rayleigh and Scopper both stepped up as capable to defeat Oden though when the Roger Pirates encountered the Whitebeard Pirates.

Doffy called Vergo partner though, would you put Vergo on Doffy's level because of that ?

Oden was closer in age to Whitebeard when he joined the Whitebeard Pirates, while Marco was a teenager. It makes sense for Whitebeard to continue to call Marco his son, since he was so young when he joined his crew, regardless of how strong he would eventually become. I would not take the difference in their relationship as a definitive indicator that Oden is meant to be not only stronger than Marco was back then, but also stronger than Marco could have hope to become.

No... I surely put Vergo below Doffy
And I SURELY put all of:
- Rayleigh below Roger
- Oden Below PrimeWB
- Zoro below Luffy

But I also put (ALL YONKO) below Roger / Prime WB / EoS Luffy

So, it's the same
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btw pica is yc2

LOL, stop it

But I will give him credit... in fact, I will give all of Doffy's underlings credit because during Dressrosa we complained about Doffy crew not being that good... but when we look at some Yonko crew now... honestly Doffy's crew members can fit in Yonko crews and make the position of "ministers or high level veterans"

 

[kuzanhandsome]

If zkk happens, I will castrate myself

 

[nik87]

If zkk happens, I will castrate myself

Can we expect a video recording of that procedure?

 

[Kuro Ashi]

No... I surely put Vergo below Doffy
And I SURELY put all of:
- Rayleigh below Roger
- Oden Below PrimeWB
- Zoro below Luffy

But I also put (ALL YONKO) below Roger / Prime WB / EoS Luffy

So, it's the same

Well you surely also put King bellow Kaido, Katakuri bellow Big Mom as well. Do you think Vergo was closer to Doflamingo that they are to Kaido/Big Mom, because of the fact that Vergo was called Doflamingo's partner ?

Like is the gap between Doffy and Vergo the same as whatever gap is between the Yonko and Roger/Whitebeard ?

 

[Camie]

What can we say.. Zoro handled what was in front of him. Not his fault he easily took care of what he was given. Also are we all forgetting that he was trained by WSS? Do you think Mihawk would go easy on him? He learned from the best in the world. Of course Zoro should be ready to cut Kaido.

 

[Sadistic Senpai]

Well you surely also put King bellow Kaido, Katakuri bellow Big Mom as well. Do you think Vergo was closer to Doflamingo that they are to Kaido/Big Mom, because of the fact that Vergo was called Doflamingo's partner ?

Like is the gap between Doffy and Vergo the same as whatever gap is between the Yonko and Roger/Whitebeard ?

Yeah, King and Katakuri below Kaido and Big Mom. Which makes Oden higher than YC1 for sure. Also, yeah, Vergo is closer to Mingo than a YC1 to Yonko... Vergo WOULD NOT be one or two-shotted by Doffy imo... While I can See Kaido or Big Mom oneshotting King or Katakuri if the hit landed and he couldn't dodge...

SPECIALLY because Kaido oneshotted Luffy at beginning of Wano (who I considered at the time at YC1) and who's durability is FAAAAR greater than Katakuri based on their fight... because Luffy can take a whole lot of damage... a whole lot more than Katakuri...

So getting oneshotted?

Now, I don't see the same treatment between Doflamingo and Vergo... I can see Vergo lasting longer... and maybe even land good hits against Mingo... So yeah Vergo is closer to Mingo than King or Katakuri to their captain.. and him being called a partner also emphasizes that