Eos Sanji vs Mihawk
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I'll agree that I should amend my claim to overwhelming majority but this dosent help Zoro's case buggy everyone thinks he is more powerful than them implying weaker people follow stronger people and in his original crew he is the strongest and jinbei it was explicitly stated and luffy crew parallel gol d roger who is heavily implied to be the strongest.
If oda states roger is a swordsman that's when I'll believe it.
Ray wasnt put on the same level as whitebeard garp simply called them both legends nothing Implies those legends hold the same strength and by your own logic. Ray=whitebeard +his whole crew because garp knew whitebeard wasnt coming alone yet ray was by himself not only buggy already said only roger and whitebeard could fight evenly.
Hypothetically if roger was a swordsman it wouldnt matter. Hes dead zoro has no need to be stronger than him .once he beats mihawk he will get the title. So whether he is or isnt a swordsman dosent change anything.
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Juan piece reader i see
0 proof that roger is a swordsman:
Zoro an sanji aren t rivals
Ray was put on the same level as wb
0 proof that roger is a swordsman:
Ray was put on the same level as wb
Ray wasnt put on the same level as whitebeard garp simply called them both legends nothing Implies those legends hold the same strength and by your own logic. Ray=whitebeard +his whole crew because garp knew whitebeard wasnt coming alone yet ray was by himself not only buggy already said only roger and whitebeard could fight evenly.
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they can t accept that the pirate king was a swordsman and scared that zoro will reach roger s level 
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Well you have made several points but I personally don't agree with your way of argumentation because the statements that you have made to further support your claim are controversial to say the least.
I am glad you kept it short and gave two examples, and lets put the combat power dynamics between Kuroobi and Hachan on back burner for now as that is a more complex yet less important matter. Also if I give my argument for everything it is possible that there is too much to read and we essentially go no where with this debate and waste both of our times. So lets try to establish a consensus between us when it comes to Mr1 and Mr2.
I essentially have very hard time understanding the idea of Mr2 being close in individual combat power to Mr2 because it goes against feats, portrayal and hype.
From feats perspective
-Mr1 was able to match Mr2 in combat, react to all his attacks without even using his devil fruit, for either offense or defense, although with latter its rather tricky as Mr1 does stay in state of being as hard as steel at all times but he did not turn his arm into a blade when he blocked Mr2's kick that sent him flying. But what that really establishes is that at their best when it comes to pure fighting skill, they are equals at best.
-Zoro how ever vastly surpassed Mr1's combat skill to the point where he was constantly overpowering Mr1's stance and Mr1 wasn't able to react to several of Zoro's attacks despite using his devil fruit in close quarters.
-Mr1 was still beating the crap out of Zoro and he said the statements "Blows and blades have no effect on me" which makes sense because Zoro generated Luffy's Bazooka level power with Oni Giri, with which Zoro was able to break steel in prior arcs but he wasn't able to do anything to Mr1.
-So if Zoro wasn't able to damage Mr1 with that level of power and lethality, despite having vastly superior combat skill than Mr1, what chance does Mr2 stand in damaging him? Mr1 seemingly surpasses Mr2 in power, lethality and range but most importantly Mr2 can not do any damage.
-I wouldn't say Mr1 wouldn't have any trouble, like he didn't have with Mr2's goons. He would have some trouble but essentially based on feats he would defeat him with low difficulty effort as he would have defeated Zoro with medium difficulty effort had it not been for Breath of all things. Essentially Mr1 carries the power to kill Mr2 in one attack but Mr2 doesn't carry the power to do any damage at all to Mr1.
From Portrayal Stand Point
-Crocodile made it crystal clear that the lower number means higher combat power and the only exception to this rule is Mr3 because of his special ability. At least as far as Daz Bones is concerned combat power is what he represents above all else, he was known as the assassin.
-Defeating Daz Bones resulted in Zoro garnering bounty of 60 Million where as defeating Bon Clay garnered Sanji no bounty.
-Daz Bones was put a level higher than Bon Clay in Impel down and once again that is also generally based on one's combat power. Like commander level individuals were put in level 5 and level 6.
-The only man Crocodile really seeked after getting released from Prison by Luffy right away was Daz Bones but he did not seem to care about Bon Clay
-There is a well established hierarchy and checks and balances when it comes to Boroque works where if a certain number like Mr8 messes up Mr0 would send Mr7 to kill him. It was even further emphasized when Mr2 was shown in immense fear at the thought of Mr1 coming to kill him. If you want I can find you a panel for that but I believe you are well verse in One Piece to already know about that. Sure Mr2 showed bravado when Mr1 actually showed up but we can't ignore the fact that Crocodile is highly intelligent and he has organized his crew in a way that if Mr2 messes up Mr1 should be effectively able to kill Mr2 without any chance of failure.
So its hard to really judge difficulty when it comes to portrayal, all you can judge is that who is put on a superior pedestal by the author and in universe entities. But once we have established that, we have to use feats to know exactly how big the gap is.
And as I stated above I don't think it would be an effortless fight, Bon Clay is certainly not a fodder and has combat skill to match Daz Bones' combat ability momentarily. But issue is that is where it all stops because beyond that Mr2 can not do any damage, he would have very hard time defending against Mr1's bladed attacks and Mr1 has massive advantage in lethality and power and can kill Bon Clay in one attack.
I would say it would be a low difficulty fight, perhaps the same as Luffy vs Kaido and it is not a slight to Bon Clay, he is very very strong, is just that Daz Bones is exceptionally strong in every way possible to the point where logically even Zoro must have lost to him.
I am glad you kept it short and gave two examples, and lets put the combat power dynamics between Kuroobi and Hachan on back burner for now as that is a more complex yet less important matter. Also if I give my argument for everything it is possible that there is too much to read and we essentially go no where with this debate and waste both of our times. So lets try to establish a consensus between us when it comes to Mr1 and Mr2.
I essentially have very hard time understanding the idea of Mr2 being close in individual combat power to Mr2 because it goes against feats, portrayal and hype.
From feats perspective
-Mr1 was able to match Mr2 in combat, react to all his attacks without even using his devil fruit, for either offense or defense, although with latter its rather tricky as Mr1 does stay in state of being as hard as steel at all times but he did not turn his arm into a blade when he blocked Mr2's kick that sent him flying. But what that really establishes is that at their best when it comes to pure fighting skill, they are equals at best.
-Zoro how ever vastly surpassed Mr1's combat skill to the point where he was constantly overpowering Mr1's stance and Mr1 wasn't able to react to several of Zoro's attacks despite using his devil fruit in close quarters.
-Mr1 was still beating the crap out of Zoro and he said the statements "Blows and blades have no effect on me" which makes sense because Zoro generated Luffy's Bazooka level power with Oni Giri, with which Zoro was able to break steel in prior arcs but he wasn't able to do anything to Mr1.
-So if Zoro wasn't able to damage Mr1 with that level of power and lethality, despite having vastly superior combat skill than Mr1, what chance does Mr2 stand in damaging him? Mr1 seemingly surpasses Mr2 in power, lethality and range but most importantly Mr2 can not do any damage.
-I wouldn't say Mr1 wouldn't have any trouble, like he didn't have with Mr2's goons. He would have some trouble but essentially based on feats he would defeat him with low difficulty effort as he would have defeated Zoro with medium difficulty effort had it not been for Breath of all things. Essentially Mr1 carries the power to kill Mr2 in one attack but Mr2 doesn't carry the power to do any damage at all to Mr1.
From Portrayal Stand Point
-Crocodile made it crystal clear that the lower number means higher combat power and the only exception to this rule is Mr3 because of his special ability. At least as far as Daz Bones is concerned combat power is what he represents above all else, he was known as the assassin.
-Defeating Daz Bones resulted in Zoro garnering bounty of 60 Million where as defeating Bon Clay garnered Sanji no bounty.
-Daz Bones was put a level higher than Bon Clay in Impel down and once again that is also generally based on one's combat power. Like commander level individuals were put in level 5 and level 6.
-The only man Crocodile really seeked after getting released from Prison by Luffy right away was Daz Bones but he did not seem to care about Bon Clay
-There is a well established hierarchy and checks and balances when it comes to Boroque works where if a certain number like Mr8 messes up Mr0 would send Mr7 to kill him. It was even further emphasized when Mr2 was shown in immense fear at the thought of Mr1 coming to kill him. If you want I can find you a panel for that but I believe you are well verse in One Piece to already know about that. Sure Mr2 showed bravado when Mr1 actually showed up but we can't ignore the fact that Crocodile is highly intelligent and he has organized his crew in a way that if Mr2 messes up Mr1 should be effectively able to kill Mr2 without any chance of failure.
So its hard to really judge difficulty when it comes to portrayal, all you can judge is that who is put on a superior pedestal by the author and in universe entities. But once we have established that, we have to use feats to know exactly how big the gap is.
And as I stated above I don't think it would be an effortless fight, Bon Clay is certainly not a fodder and has combat skill to match Daz Bones' combat ability momentarily. But issue is that is where it all stops because beyond that Mr2 can not do any damage, he would have very hard time defending against Mr1's bladed attacks and Mr1 has massive advantage in lethality and power and can kill Bon Clay in one attack.
I would say it would be a low difficulty fight, perhaps the same as Luffy vs Kaido and it is not a slight to Bon Clay, he is very very strong, is just that Daz Bones is exceptionally strong in every way possible to the point where logically even Zoro must have lost to him.
Imo it honestly depends on how oda wraps up the story. If zoro is 1 of the last to accomplish his dream in the final arc or next to final arc than than no sanji won't beat mihawk. In this case no i think mihawk would high diff him. On the other hand if zoro is one of the first to accomplish his dream and we are 3 or 4 arc away from the last arc then yea sanji could win. In this case sanji could scrap out a extreme diff win. It is all depended on time as if zoro surpasses mihawk early than that gives sanji more time to surpass him as well.
I think you misunderstood me, its not necessary the "he can do it so he can or he can't thing". I am more concerned about what is shown in the story and what the logical scenario is.
Surpassing Mihawk has been shown as one of the ultimate achievements in One Piece that only one exceptional of the exceptional are able to accomplish. It requires unparalleled drive, will power and ambition to accomplish, it is something every swordsman strives to accomplish including Vista, Shanks, Fujitora (unless they simply don't wanna get stronger, they don't strive to be as strong as they can be because that is all it takes to "compete") for Mihawk's "title", but they all have hit their ceiling and their ceiling is still below Mihawk's. Zoro is more exceptional than them, Zoro has more drive, more hunger, more desire to get stronger than them and hence he will finally accomplish that.
It doesn't make for a good story for Sanji, someone who hasn't shown the desire, the force of will, the exceptional hunger for combat power, to surpass Mihawk when it takes someone as exceptional as Zoro, with as much a desire to get stronger, with as much a dedication to get stronger to surpass Mihawk. I mean how would Sanji's dream look like if Zoro was able to become as good of a chef as him at the end of story, granted Sanji can also fight on top of cooking, just how much of a priority is fighting truly to Sanji?
And with Zoro and Luffy its more complex because those two have genuinely been shown as two pieces cut from same cloth, trying to attain different destinations. Regardless of having different destinations and ambitions, they both have shown unparalleled ambition, the desire to get stronger, and force of will to become extra ordinary. I am not saying Zoro can become pirate king because he hasn't dedicated his life to becoming that just like Luffy can't become strongest swordsman in the world. But Zoro certainly has enough will power, drive and hunger to get stronger, to be able to attain level of individual combat power that Luffy can. Sanji has not displayed that and that matter immensely in One Piece, it is an ambition and will power driven show, dreams matter a lot here.
Its not even about parallels, Zoro and Luffy don't parallel anyone truly, not even Roger and Rayleigh, only parallel there is is that they would have same kinda positioning in their crew. But Rayleigh did not have ambition of Zoro, he wasn't strive to create an exceptionally legacy of himself completely unrelated to his captain on top of his legacy with his captain and same can be said for Oden. Rayleigh and Oden were exceptional subordinates who strength might have been close to their captains (I think Ray is close to Roger than Oden was to Whitebeard), Zoro is an exceptional subordinate and then some. Someone whose will power and strive to be great rivals Luffy's own but just has a different destination.
Surpassing Mihawk has been shown as one of the ultimate achievements in One Piece that only one exceptional of the exceptional are able to accomplish. It requires unparalleled drive, will power and ambition to accomplish, it is something every swordsman strives to accomplish including Vista, Shanks, Fujitora (unless they simply don't wanna get stronger, they don't strive to be as strong as they can be because that is all it takes to "compete") for Mihawk's "title", but they all have hit their ceiling and their ceiling is still below Mihawk's. Zoro is more exceptional than them, Zoro has more drive, more hunger, more desire to get stronger than them and hence he will finally accomplish that.
It doesn't make for a good story for Sanji, someone who hasn't shown the desire, the force of will, the exceptional hunger for combat power, to surpass Mihawk when it takes someone as exceptional as Zoro, with as much a desire to get stronger, with as much a dedication to get stronger to surpass Mihawk. I mean how would Sanji's dream look like if Zoro was able to become as good of a chef as him at the end of story, granted Sanji can also fight on top of cooking, just how much of a priority is fighting truly to Sanji?
And with Zoro and Luffy its more complex because those two have genuinely been shown as two pieces cut from same cloth, trying to attain different destinations. Regardless of having different destinations and ambitions, they both have shown unparalleled ambition, the desire to get stronger, and force of will to become extra ordinary. I am not saying Zoro can become pirate king because he hasn't dedicated his life to becoming that just like Luffy can't become strongest swordsman in the world. But Zoro certainly has enough will power, drive and hunger to get stronger, to be able to attain level of individual combat power that Luffy can. Sanji has not displayed that and that matter immensely in One Piece, it is an ambition and will power driven show, dreams matter a lot here.
Its not even about parallels, Zoro and Luffy don't parallel anyone truly, not even Roger and Rayleigh, only parallel there is is that they would have same kinda positioning in their crew. But Rayleigh did not have ambition of Zoro, he wasn't strive to create an exceptionally legacy of himself completely unrelated to his captain on top of his legacy with his captain and same can be said for Oden. Rayleigh and Oden were exceptional subordinates who strength might have been close to their captains (I think Ray is close to Roger than Oden was to Whitebeard), Zoro is an exceptional subordinate and then some. Someone whose will power and strive to be great rivals Luffy's own but just has a different destination.
I don't think sanji will surpass mihawk that doesn't mean he wont be a tough fight
Sanji has never been as much of a fighter as zoro yet that doesn't stop oda from not keeping him that far
Also dont you think eos zoro mid diffs mihawk or did you change your mind
Just because luffy can do something doesn't mean zoro can. Like im sorry but zoro and him are not both the main character its just luffy
Sanji has never been as much of a fighter as zoro yet that doesn't stop oda from not keeping him that far
Also dont you think eos zoro mid diffs mihawk or did you change your mind
Just because luffy can do something doesn't mean zoro can. Like im sorry but zoro and him are not both the main character its just luffy
I am not sure what qualifies as keeping characters close and far, power dynamics between Sanji and Zoro is a very controversial matter. I don't you should use that as a base for any argument as every time that has to be established. I do not believe Oda has kept them close I personally think there was always a significant gap and it was never Luffy vs Zoro Whiskey Peak situation.
Its true, just because Luffy can do something doesn't mean Zoro can just like just because Zoro can do something doesn't mean Luffy can. I am not sure where is the disapproval. Luffy is THE main character, that is true, not sure how that is relevant to the topic.
Its true, just because Luffy can do something doesn't mean Zoro can just like just because Zoro can do something doesn't mean Luffy can. I am not sure where is the disapproval. Luffy is THE main character, that is true, not sure how that is relevant to the topic.
Well there are several issues I have with Doriki, first one being devil fruits are not considered. We don't know if devil fruit gives equal boost to Kaku and Jabura, all I know is that Kaku with his devil fruit showed far greater attack power than Jabura did.
Another important issue I have is that Kaku was portrayed slightly stronger than Jabura without his swords, his physical stats were slightly above Jabura's. But if Kaku is slightly above Jabura without his four blades, surely he is far above Jabura with his four blades right?
You don't think Zoro was anywhere near Luffy without his blades despite equalling him with his blades right?
Based on feats Kaku was much more impressive as well, he was able to match Zoro in close quarters while Zoro's CqC skills were directly shown to be good deal above Sanji's in Alabasta in their respective fights when Sanji's CqC skills were shown to be equal to Mr2's where as Zoro was shown far superior fighter to Mr1 skill wise and Mr1 had equal skills to Mr2.
Also worth noting that Ashura was able to overpower and attack far stronger than attack that destroyed the tower, which in itself was so strong, it made Jabura get away from the scene of the fight because he was afraid he might take some collateral damage.
Ashura was able to casually obliterate attack far stronger than tower destroying attack and then one shot Kaku while DJ two shot Jabura.
What happens if Zoro goes Ashura and Sanji goes DJ?? Do you genuinely believe DJ is anywhere near Ashura in power, Ashura that is casually tower level+++ that is G3 level attack power with added lethality?
I think if Sanji and Zoro fought in EL, Sanji is giving Zoro no better fight than Kaku did.
Though there is also the fact that using Doriki happened like 12 years ago and it was only one set of Zoro and Sanji's opponent. There was a massive gap between MR1 and MR2, Ryuma and Absalom and Ohm and Satori (although Sanji didn't even 1v1 Satori).
Don't think that was the reason for Doriki, I personally think it was just a little homage from Oda to Dragon Ball Z. If it truly was important factor Oda woulda certainly brought it back or had some how managed to have actual straw hats get their doriki numbers.
What feats are you talking about? Zoro seems to have better feats in virtually everything than Sanji at the moment besides observation Haki and movement speed although observation Haki is very debatable?
Another important issue I have is that Kaku was portrayed slightly stronger than Jabura without his swords, his physical stats were slightly above Jabura's. But if Kaku is slightly above Jabura without his four blades, surely he is far above Jabura with his four blades right?
You don't think Zoro was anywhere near Luffy without his blades despite equalling him with his blades right?
Based on feats Kaku was much more impressive as well, he was able to match Zoro in close quarters while Zoro's CqC skills were directly shown to be good deal above Sanji's in Alabasta in their respective fights when Sanji's CqC skills were shown to be equal to Mr2's where as Zoro was shown far superior fighter to Mr1 skill wise and Mr1 had equal skills to Mr2.
Also worth noting that Ashura was able to overpower and attack far stronger than attack that destroyed the tower, which in itself was so strong, it made Jabura get away from the scene of the fight because he was afraid he might take some collateral damage.
Ashura was able to casually obliterate attack far stronger than tower destroying attack and then one shot Kaku while DJ two shot Jabura.
What happens if Zoro goes Ashura and Sanji goes DJ?? Do you genuinely believe DJ is anywhere near Ashura in power, Ashura that is casually tower level+++ that is G3 level attack power with added lethality?
I think if Sanji and Zoro fought in EL, Sanji is giving Zoro no better fight than Kaku did.
Though there is also the fact that using Doriki happened like 12 years ago and it was only one set of Zoro and Sanji's opponent. There was a massive gap between MR1 and MR2, Ryuma and Absalom and Ohm and Satori (although Sanji didn't even 1v1 Satori).
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Don't think that was the reason for Doriki, I personally think it was just a little homage from Oda to Dragon Ball Z. If it truly was important factor Oda woulda certainly brought it back or had some how managed to have actual straw hats get their doriki numbers.
What feats are you talking about? Zoro seems to have better feats in virtually everything than Sanji at the moment besides observation Haki and movement speed although observation Haki is very debatable?
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