Spoiler General Kingdom Spoiler

[Elder Lee Hung]

I didn't ignore the broader context, I contextualised what is happening with what has happened at Shukai when Ou Sen's life was in much more imminent danger, to point out how ludicrous it is for Ou Sen's generals to react this way now.

You are conflating imminent danger with level of danger. Ousen was in more imminent danger from Bananji who was only fear away from him, but Ousen is in much more severe danger currently as he is being targeted by two 3GHs. To compare the two situations to begin with is just wrong, it’s like comparing a situation where a dog is about to bite me to one where I am locked in a cage with a starving lion who is currently sleeping. The dog bite is more immediate but the sleeping lion is a bit more serious, lol

It's not arrogance, it's discipline. That very same discipline that allows them to trample their own to push forward shouldn't vanish the minute SBS's army comes into contact with Ou Sen's. There is no defending this amateurish conduct.

It’s almost like saying “there is no defending Kanki’s lack of traditional strategy” or “there is no defending Moubu’s inability to match top tier tacticians”. Like, yeah, that’s their explicit weaknesses as they’ve been written.

I don’t think it’s bad writing is all I’m saying. I think Hara specifically wrote Akou this way on purpose. It is an extension of Ousen’s own weakness that his commanders are behaving this way. Time will tell if I’m correct of course but I don’t think it’s bad writing lol.

You put up a weak argument about the intimidation factor, I rebutted with the confidence and belief Ou Sen's generals have in him. I didn't quote "ever victorious" for aesthetic.

Speaking of arguing in bad faith, you accuse me of saying Ousen’s commanders are behaving this way simply because they are intimidated by Shibashou. Which we both know is not what I’ve been saying.

Anyway, it seems that to you, the confidence Ousen’s generals have in him means they can just abandon him to any and all danger regardless of severity. That’s how you make it seem with your posts, before you accuse me of arguing in bad faith lol.

When in reality the confidence these guys have in Ousen doesn’t mean they will just up and abandon him to Riboku’s ploys. That’s how you wind up with a dead Lord lol.

I would consider it bad writing if Ousen’s guys just ignored Shibashou and continued in their current battles like nothing is happening. Like I said, that be some Gekishin level arrogance, Ousen’s head would go flying before the end of day 1 of battle lol.

 

[Monet]

I don’t think he’s showing Shibashou badly, he’s just not showing him. I think partially because Shibashou doesn’t have much interest in this battle which I’m hoping will change as more and more of his men start dying. I don’t want to wait until EOS/End of Zhao to see a serious Shibashou lol.

We’ll see what Hara plans for Hango but I will be severely underwhelmed if Hara spent 5 years getting us excited to see a guy who doesn’t even care about the current battle enough to show his full might.

sbs is save cuz he didn't meat any general yet.
and the one he met with are just garbage compared to him souo or denermi .
i meant his generals,

nah it has to be this battle he will show what he has , but for now on one is worthy to fight him as fighter .

 

[Xione]

My guy, what are your thoughts on Karin? Where do you see her as a commander?

- From me and fellow Karin wankers @MarineHQ and @FutureWarrior123

She should be in the same realm as Ousen imo.

Little less smarter than Ousen, but would make up for it with her martial might. Dare I say Ousen's equal.

 

[FutureWarrior123]

She should be in the same realm as Ousen imo.

Little less smarter than Ousen, but would make up for it with her martial might. Dare I say Ousen's equal.

You are now herby officially appointed to the Karin Bros association.

@God Buggy
@MarineHQ
And our newest member @Xione

:cheers:

 

[Cichy]

She should be in the same realm as Ousen imo.

Little less smarter than Ousen, but would make up for it with her martial might. Dare I say Ousen's equal.

She's good, but I wouldn't go that far.

So far her only real feat is the plan to sneak her elites in coalition war. Which was great in how much layers and complexity it had, but was still countered by Ousen in the end.

As for her strength I doubt she's weak, but idk if she can defeat any great general tier warrior on her own.

In the end she suffers from not having enough screentime, so it's difficult to scale her.

 

[MarineHQ]

Alright. Time to drop it.

Rinshoujou > Ousen

Ousen shouldn't be in the Goat Tier yet the same tier where Riboku, Renpa, Gakuki, Hakuki and Ouki are placed in.


Apart from the locust strategy all RBK been doing is clap Ousen’s butt around all year.

@Xione @Elder Lee Hung @Owl Ki @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

Alright. Time to drop it.

Rinshoujou > Ousen

Ousen shouldn't be in the Goat Tier yet the same tier where Riboku, Renpa, Gakuki, Hakuki and Ouki are placed in.


Apart from the locust strategy all RBK been doing is clap Ousen’s butt around all year.

@Xione @Elder Lee Hung @Owl Ki @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea

 

[Xione]

She's good, but I wouldn't go that far.

So far her only real feat is the plan to sneak her elites in coalition war. Which was great in how much layers and complexity it had, but was still countered by Ousen in the end.

As for her strength I doubt she's weak, but idk if she can defeat any great general tier warrior on her own.

In the end she suffers from not having enough screentime, so it's difficult to scale her.

Feats wouldn't really be a good measure to judge her on against Ousen, since one has multiple campaigns under him, while the other is being held off for future showcasings. However, if we go on general portrayal/narrative establishment there's a sound argument for Karin.

-> That was countered by Ousen because he's better strategically, however, Karin wasn't there herself as part of that unit which would limit part of her prowess as a general, the martial might part specifically. On the other hand Ousen showed up himself.

-> She's got a 94 stat, putting her in the same ballpark as Gyou'un. Add on to that her Kanmei-esque size + probably some internal motivations related to her brother and all that good stuff. Her being of that caliber is already a game changer, seeing what somebody like Gyou'un could do with his martial might.

Yea I mean that's about majority of the main generals even 2 of Qin's main generals suffer from screentime. Buttt that's why we're just making predictions based on narrative and any supplementary material for them, until they do showcase feats.

94 vs 93
94 vs 95
98 vs 99

That's the stat comp between Ousen and Karin, Ousen edges her out slightly in leadership and strat but she edges him out in Martial Might. Based on how the Coalition went where you had Kanki/Ousen being the new blooming strats from Qin side, you had GHM & Karin from the Coalition side. If O/K became Qin 6, the other two became the top dogs of their respective nations militaries. And I don't think Ousen or Kanki did anything so far in the series that would make me say GHM & Karin aren't of the same caliber, especially when taking into account they're taking on much bigger responsibilities than the former two.

So I don't think having her be in the same realm as Ousen is disservice to Ousen. Especially when adding on to the fact she's essentially being considered an upgrade from Shunshinkun in the military unlocking capabilities for Chu. SSK being somebody who was considered to be somebody that stood at the absolute peak, respected by the likes of Gouhoumei and such. So being an upgrade over the guy who made the Chu into a superstate... is a pretty big accomplishment imo.

Post automatically merged: Jan 16, 2024

Alright. Time to drop it.

Rinshoujou > Ousen

Ousen shouldn't be in the Goat Tier yet the same tier where Riboku, Renpa, Gakuki, Hakuki and Ouki are placed in.


Apart from the locust strategy all RBK been doing is clap Ousen’s butt around all year.

@Xione @Elder Lee Hung @Owl Ki @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea

I think Rinshoujou is slightly overrated. And mainly due to the whole "An equal to Renpa", which some people take literally as being dead on equal to Renpa.

- His hype is alright and mainly stemming from his own underlings, and if we go by underling hype Ouki is top 1. The Riboku hype doesn't move me except for establishing him as a legit 3GH.
- There's no special feats of him mentioned in the manga that would move me either.

Ousen based on stat is of the same caliber as him strategically, and a MUCH better combatant. I'm taking Ousen/Kanki/Karin/SHK 10 of 10 times anyday.

I think he's essentially the Kyou of the 3GH, where you have the person with arguably the most potential out of them, but they get put down before reaching that potential. So if RSJ reached his potential, considering his capabilities and age, then no doubt I think he could've been the top guy. Kyou is also the same way for me, if she's reaching her potential then fuck I don't see why she couldn't be above Hakuki and co. But sadly they didn't and got killed of died early in their careers.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Alright. Time to drop it.

Rinshoujou > Ousen

Ousen shouldn't be in the Goat Tier yet the same tier where Riboku, Renpa, Gakuki, Hakuki and Ouki are placed in.


Apart from the locust strategy all RBK been doing is clap Ousen’s butt around all year.

@Xione @Elder Lee Hung @Owl Ki @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea

I would probably put Ousen above Renpa and Rinshoujou overall. He defeated Riboku at his own game and looks superior to Shouheikun strategically as well. In a straightforward battle I would put Renpa and Rinshoujou > Ousen but overall I have Ousen above them.

Post automatically merged: Jan 17, 2024

I think Rinshoujou is slightly overrated. And mainly due to the whole "An equal to Renpa", which some people take literally as being dead on equal to Renpa.

Lmfao, classic Xione

“Words don’t mean exactly what the words say”

“Gyou’Un was explicitly called the martial might of Zhao, but this merely means he was one of the martial mights of Zhao”

“Shin said Gaimou’s weight was equal to Renpa’s, but he said probably so actually Renpa >>>>> Gaimou”

“Rinshoujou was called Renpa’s equal by the same source that called Riboku stronger than Rinshoujou, but no actually Renpa > Rinshoujou”

Welcome back bro, welcome back. Lol

 

[Xione]

Lmfao, classic Xione

“Words don’t mean exactly what the words say”

“Gyou’Un was explicitly called the martial might of Zhao, but this merely means he was one of the martial mights of Zhao”

“Shin said Gaimou’s weight was equal to Renpa’s, but he said probably so actually Renpa >>>>> Gaimou”

“Rinshoujou was called Renpa’s equal by the same source that called Riboku stronger than Rinshoujou, but no actually Renpa > Rinshoujou”

Welcome back bro, welcome back. Lol

Ahhh my dear bruddaaaa Lee, I do not why you must do this.

Words, sentences, statements, paragraphs, anything related to language is said or writtens within a context. You know that and I do as well. Furthermore, character statements are not factual statements, they are simply character statements. Otherwise, I don't see you holding Ouki as Top 1 martially, despite Tou literally stating: "It is my Lord whose strength knows no limits" Ahhh but you put a limit on Ouki do you not? Just as when Kaine states "When Bananji is serious nobody can stop him!!" Ahhh but you believe the likes of Kanmei/Moubu/etc can stop him. Hell this is a character who saw Gyou'un fight as well and made that statement, but still you held Gyou'un above Bananji.
But we now talking about taking statements at face value.


- Gyou'un was stated to worn the mantle of Zhao's martial might, let's not make up our own statements. Multiple people can wear the same mantle. You just happen to believe only 1 person can and I have no idea why.

- Yup and let's leave out the fact that the dynamic between Riboku-Gyou'un is vastly different from Gyou'un - Renpa the rival of his master. And I've never used that statement from Gyou'un as the reason to have Riboku above Renpa and co, as a part of dozens of other statements from dozens of characters? Yes.

- Gakuki was stated by the NARRATOR, not a character, but the NARRATOR to have balanced out the Qin 6-Zhao3 all by himself... but you do not hold him as top 1, instead you believe one of the people from the groups he balanced out by himself is superior to him.

And if we really going down the "character opinions = facts", then lets keep that energy consistent:

Tyy bro, though im gone hit disable again after dropping few analysis threads on Ten/Kyoukai/WoG here tonight.

 

[Cichy]

Feats wouldn't really be a good measure to judge her on against Ousen, since one has multiple campaigns under him, while the other is being held off for future showcasings. However, if we go on general portrayal/narrative establishment there's a sound argument for Karin.

-> That was countered by Ousen because he's better strategically, however, Karin wasn't there herself as part of that unit which would limit part of her prowess as a general, the martial might part specifically. On the other hand Ousen showed up himself.

-> She's got a 94 stat, putting her in the same ballpark as Gyou'un. Add on to that her Kanmei-esque size + probably some internal motivations related to her brother and all that good stuff. Her being of that caliber is already a game changer, seeing what somebody like Gyou'un could do with his martial might.

Yea I mean that's about majority of the main generals even 2 of Qin's main generals suffer from screentime. Buttt that's why we're just making predictions based on narrative and any supplementary material for them, until they do showcase feats.

94 vs 93
94 vs 95
98 vs 99

That's the stat comp between Ousen and Karin, Ousen edges her out slightly in leadership and strat but she edges him out in Martial Might. Based on how the Coalition went where you had Kanki/Ousen being the new blooming strats from Qin side, you had GHM & Karin from the Coalition side. If O/K became Qin 6, the other two became the top dogs of their respective nations militaries. And I don't think Ousen or Kanki did anything so far in the series that would make me say GHM & Karin aren't of the same caliber, especially when taking into account they're taking on much bigger responsibilities than the former two.

So I don't think having her be in the same realm as Ousen is disservice to Ousen. Especially when adding on to the fact she's essentially being considered an upgrade from Shunshinkun in the military unlocking capabilities for Chu. SSK being somebody who was considered to be somebody that stood at the absolute peak, respected by the likes of Gouhoumei and such. So being an upgrade over the guy who made the Chu into a superstate... is a pretty big accomplishment imo.

I'm not someone who would disregard stats in general, but using total stats as a method to mesure characters abilities is flawed.
The gap of 1-2 points in intel can make a pretty significant difference. See for example how Riboku is Bayou was called by Ouki comander of unprecedented level just based on his strategical feats even tho he's only one point above Hakuki and Rinshoujo. And there's also a possibility of Ousen's stat still going up in the next guidebook.

 

[Xione]

I'm not someone who would disregard stats in general, but using total stats as a method to mesure characters abilities is flawed.
The gap of 1-2 points in intel can make a pretty significant difference. See for example how Riboku is Bayou was called by Ouki comander of unprecedented level just based on his strategical feats even tho he's only one point above Hakuki and Rinshoujo. And there's also a possibility of Ousen's stat still going up in the next guidebook.

You're correct, stats are flawed. Hence why I didn't ONLY use stats, but used stats to paint the general picture between the two and then pointed out events and accomplishments related to Ousen-Karin to make rest of the points. I wasn't using the total stats, but specifically in their respective categories. The 1 point can make a difference, yes, that's why I gave the edge to Ousen there, just as Karin is a stat above in martial might. But she also has something outside the stats, her insanely strong body. That seems pretty on par with each other, especially when you add in the narrative of the story into it.

-> Both showout at the Coalition from their respective sides
-> One becomes a GG & Then becomes the head of military for her state. The other becomes a Qin 6 member.
-> One has the job to out do a guy who created Chu into a superstate military wise. The other is out conquering territory for his nation.

I don't see where Ousen is narratively on a different level than her. Imo, the narrative is just supported by the supplementary material in the stats.


Also for the Riboku, Ouki stated he was an enemy of unprecedented level, not a general of an unprecedented level. Part of what makes Riboku unprecedented is the sheer power he had thanks to being the prime minister. For example, even right now Ousen and them don't have the same power that Riboku did in Zhao. The information block that Riboku imposed, can only be done by SHK in Qin. Like there just hasn't been a military person who's had that much power.

 

[Cichy]

You're correct, stats are flawed. Hence why I didn't ONLY use stats, but used stats to paint the general picture between the two and then pointed out events and accomplishments related to Ousen-Karin to make rest of the points. I wasn't using the total stats, but specifically in their respective categories. The 1 point can make a difference, yes, that's why I gave the edge to Ousen there, just as Karin is a stat above in martial might. But she also has something outside the stats, her insanely strong body. That seems pretty on par with each other, especially when you add in the narrative of the story into it.

-> Both showout at the Coalition from their respective sides
-> One becomes a GG & Then becomes the head of military for her state. The other becomes a Qin 6 member.
-> One has the job to out do a guy who created Chu into a superstate military wise. The other is out conquering territory for his nation.

I don't see where Ousen is narratively on a different level than her. Imo, the narrative is just supported by the supplementary material in the stats.

If you think about it in a broad sense then yeah, they are both 6GG tier so in a way on the same level. Although like I said, Karin's feat are nowhere near to consider her his exact equal. Neither does she have the hype of having 6GG level strategic ability years before becoming important figure like Ousen.

Also for the Riboku, Ouki stated he was an enemy of unprecedented level, not a general of an unprecedented level. Part of what makes Riboku unprecedented is the sheer power he had thanks to being the prime minister. For example, even right now Ousen and them don't have the same power that Riboku did in Zhao. The information block that Riboku imposed, can only be done by SHK in Qin. Like there just hasn't been a military person who's had that much power.

No, Ouki specifically called him a commander of unprecedented level. Besides, Riboku was not the prime minister at this point and Ouki had no way to predict he will become one.

 

[God Buggy]

Alright. Time to drop it.

Rinshoujou > Ousen

Ousen shouldn't be in the Goat Tier yet the same tier where Riboku, Renpa, Gakuki, Hakuki and Ouki are placed in.


Apart from the locust strategy all RBK been doing is clap Ousen’s butt around all year.

@Xione @Elder Lee Hung @Owl Ki @God Buggy @TheKnightOfTheSea

I didn't just read this post, MarineHQ...

The hoh-glare wank train stands at the very pinnacle of this verse.

 

[MarineHQ]

would probably put Ousen above Renpa and Rinshoujou overall. He defeated Riboku at his own game and looks superior to Shouheikun strategically as well. In a straightforward battle I would put Renpa and Rinshoujou > Ousen but overall I have Ousen above them.

I know I'm a Renpa fanboy but Renpa really didn't look any inferior to Ousen as a tactician during the Sanyou battle.

I mean he called where and when Ousen would show up. Then after observing his retreat he immediately assumed Ousen is hiding something and wasn't surprised in the slightest by his forte. In the end he had a general view over the battlefield like any high class strategical general would have.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

I know I'm a Renpa fanboy but Renpa really didn't look any inferior to Ousen as a tactician during the Sanyou battle.

I mean he called where and when Ousen would show up. Then after observing his retreat he immediately assumed Ousen is hiding something and wasn't surprised in the slightest by his forte. In the end he had a general view over the battlefield like any high class strategical general would have.

1. Ousen immediately captured the center hill of Mougou’s HQ before the battle even began. Renpa himself actually wanted to capture this hill but Ousen beat him to it because Ousen recognized the tactical value of that hill before Renpa himself did.

2. The entire Renpa vs Ousen exchange was objectively Ousen’s victory, the only reason Renpa called it a blunder was because Mougou was the commander and not Ousen, but Renpa’s aim was to eliminate Ousen in that scenario which failed royally and even came back to checkmate Renpa in the end.

I think Renpa gives Ousen a solid high diff tactically and strategically but Ousen is clearly superior. Renpa could not have pulled off a feat like Gyou.

 

[centurion]

Hi

 

[Xione]

If you think about it in a broad sense then yeah, they are both 6GG tier so in a way on the same level. Although like I said, Karin's feat are nowhere near to consider her his exact equal. Neither does she have the hype of having 6GG level strategic ability years before becoming important figure like Ousen.

I'm not talking about in a broad sense, i'm talking about in a very narrow sense related to specifically these two. If one is 99 the other is 98.
Why would you use feats as the basis of your argument, while at the sametime acknowledging she lacks screentime. That'd just make it a bad faith argument. It's the equivalent of me trying to judge Tou right now vs Ousen, then going "Oh Tou ain't got the feats Ousen does".. like bro no shit, that mf hasn't had a proper campaign since essentially the coalition. And if that's the route I'm going with the Tou-Ousen convo, at that point I'd just be better off just not talking about this.

With that said, I think you're just very wrong on the feats part & and hype part related to Karin.

Feats at Coalition:
- She goes up against Tou, he goes up against.... Ordo
- She actually manages to trick the Qin, Tou and Moubu (two Qin 6) literally had no idea what she was up to with her strategy of continuing to use the 1st army. So much so her superior Kanmei had no idea the effectiveness of it.
- Riboku changes up the entire coalition to have her plan be followed. Her plan then effectively becomes the main plan for the Coalition.
- Her usage of formations and armies was top notch.

At Coalition, the arc in which both Ousen & Karin were in, I fail to see how Karin lacks behind Ousen.

Hype for Karin:

- "Genius at Warfare" by Shunshinkun, the commander in chief of the Coalition Army.
- Is selected by Rein to bring out the full potential of Chu's military that Shunshinkun couldn't. Shunshinkun being somebody who stood at the pinnacle of military officers.
- Renpa thinks highly of her
- Kouen thinks highly of her
- Her stats rival Ousen's, and both of their stats progress fairly similarly too.

And only reason we know about Ousen's hype before becoming 6GG, is because he's from Qin. Until her character gets focused you're not gonna get much hype related to her past.

If you really dwell deeper into it, the fact she's younger than Ousen and became the head of military for Chu at such a young... only speaks volumes for her talent. The same Chu which is stated to have a harder standards than any other country for military advancement. The same for Gouhoumei.

No, Ouki specifically called him a commander of unprecedented level. Besides, Riboku was not the prime minister at this point and Ouki had no way to predict he will become one.

You're right at that time he wasn't in the position, few months later he was, however at Bayou he still had the powers that only a PM/CoM does.

He mentions Riboku's title as a Zhao commander. Then mentions he's an enemy of unprecedented level.

Spoiler

You can't pull what Riboku did without having that scale of power lol. He doesn't need to know the position of Riboku, but simply the type of power one would have to possess in order to execute such a plan. Reality is despite not being the PM at that time, he possessed the power to execute a state-wide informational lockdown that requires the authority of the SHK atleast to pull off.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

- Kouen thinks highly of her

Does he? I don’t think we’ve ever heard Kou En’s opinion of Karin. Lol

 

[Xione]

Does he? I don’t think we’ve ever heard Kou En’s opinion of Karin. Lol

Rien went to Kouen to discuss about Chu's fate first. His entire reason for coming to recruit Karin there is based on what Kouen advised him. If Kouen, who is still the 1st-in-command of the Chu Military didn't think highly of Karin, Rien wouldn't have come there himself.

Spoiler

Karin being the genius of warfare that can utilize Chu's resources to their full potential would be something that the two top dogs of Chu at the time Rien & Kouen would mutually agree upon.

Spoiler

Just seemed like a fairly simple deduction to me.