Is Bleach Better than Kingdom?


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Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
If Kouen, who is still the 1st-in-command of the Chu Military didn't think highly of Karin, Rien wouldn't have come there himself.
Says who?

To my recollection the only reason Ri En selected Karin over Kou En was because Karin had 300k men loyal to her.


Which Bamyue said was supposed to be a secret.

Why would Ri En concern himself with Kou En’s opinion when he needed her 300k men? And when she was already the second ranked Great General of Chu? Seems like Ri En had already made his mind up about Karin and wouldn’t particularly care what Kou En thought about her lol.
 
Feats at Coalition:
- She goes up against Tou, he goes up against.... Ordo
- She actually manages to trick the Qin, Tou and Moubu (two Qin 6) literally had no idea what she was up to with her strategy of continuing to use the 1st army. So much so her superior Kanmei had no idea the effectiveness of it.
- Riboku changes up the entire coalition to have her plan be followed. Her plan then effectively becomes the main plan for the Coalition.
- Her usage of formations and armies was top notch.

At Coalition, the arc in which both Ousen & Karin were in, I fail to see how Karin lacks behind Ousen.
Ordo is Ordo specifically because he went up against Ousen lol
Karin had 30k+ remnants from the first army, plus her 50k army. Tou had 40k at the time iirc. The odds were extremely in her favor. Her plan was devious and well executed, but we really can’t compare that to what Ousen achieved in the coalition

First off, I think fighting Ordo’s 130k with only 70k, and in a mountainous area, is extremely harder than matching up against Tou with a numerical advantage. Ordo is the goat of the mountains after YTW as far as we know, and Ousen played him like a fiddle even with half his numbers, and did it in such way that allowed him to cover Kankoku pass from behind at any given moment
This is no ordinary feat
 
Says who?

To my recollection the only reason Ri En selected Karin over Kou En was because Karin had 300k men loyal to her.


Which Bamyue said was supposed to be a secret.

Why would Ri En concern himself with Kou En’s opinion when he needed her 300k men? And when she was already the second ranked Great General of Chu? Seems like Ri En had already made his mind up about Karin and wouldn’t particularly care what Kou En thought about her lol.
Says the fact that Kouen is the 1st-in-command of the Chu military.

The panel you brought up happens before their 1on1 meeting where they go into details of why he wants her. Even in that panel he doesn't state "because you hold 300k soldiers I need you to be the prime minister with me"... That's not the basis of why he wants Karin. After explaining all the shit with the King & Shunshinkun, Karin asks him why he doesn't rebuild the state himself. He could still have Karin as 2nd in command and all the 300k soldiers would still be used by the Chu as he's the prime minister who already knows about her forces. And his answer is that it'd only lead to mediocre strength.



To explain his point further he brings up what Kouen told him. That the Chu has to fully utilize its resources to their potential.

After which he makes his actual request that he wants a genius of warfare to lead Chu's restoration. Her being a genius of warfare was also a sentiment held by Shunshinkun.


So no it's not because he needs her 300k men, he can have her 300k men without making her the CoM by simply becoming PM himself and having Karin stay at her position but just expose the fact that he knows about em. And because the 300k men are under her command, doesn't mean they're loyal specifically to her and not just Chu in general. Nonetheless, the reason he wanted Karin isn't for her army, it's for the fact she's genius in warfare and can utilize the resources of the Chu to their full potential to make Chu much stronger than it was under Shunshinkun.

Which is the same reason Qin has Shouheikun in such a high position, because the mf can utilize Qin's resources towards military more properly than a normal person. Hence the SHK convo after that focused on her being a skilled strategist that was now put in position of great power like SHK & Riboku.



The soon to be PM - 1st in command meet up
1st in command tells him what's up right now with Chu's situation and what's lacking
After meeting with the 1st in command he goes to the 2nd in command, who Shunshinkun held in high regard for her intel and who Riboku even acknowledged... to become the PM with him.


Bro I fail to see how you came up with the idea that he had already made up his mind about Karin and wouldn't particularly care about KouEn... when he went to Kouen before coming to Karin. That's the opposite of what you're saying. And his recruitment of Karin is literally acting upon Kouen's opinion of Chu not utilizing shit to their peak potential.
 

Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
The panel you brought up happens before their 1on1 meeting where they go into details of why he wants her. Even in that panel he doesn't state "because you hold 300k soldiers I need you to be the prime minister with me"
For fuck’s sake lmfao this is getting ridiculous bro. I have to explain basic sentences to you now. So let’s do this.

As the second highest ranking commander in Chu, the one woman who holds sway over 300k soldiers, I have need of you and your power.”

Literally he is saying he needs her explicitly because she controls 300k men. And because she is the second GG of Chu.

The fact that he doesn’t explicitly tell her about the second prime minister rank yet is irrelevant. He is telling her why he came to her here. Lol

Didn’t even read the rest of your post because I laughed out loud just reading this one quote lmfao.

Either way Kou En’s opinion of Karin was neither stated nor even remotely implied.

Like I’m sure he thinks highly of her but you are reading something from nothing here lol.

Love you bro
 
For fuck’s sake lmfao this is getting ridiculous bro. I have to explain basic sentences to you now. So let’s do this.

As the second highest ranking commander in Chu, the one woman who holds sway over 300k soldiers, I have need of you and your power.”

Literally he is saying he needs her explicitly because she controls 300k men. And because she is the second GG of Chu.

The fact that he doesn’t explicitly tell her about the second prime minister rank yet is irrelevant. He is telling her why he came to her here. Lol

Didn’t even read the rest of your post because I laughed out loud just reading this one quote lmfao.

Either way Kou En’s opinion of Karin was neither stated nor even remotely implied.

Like I’m sure he thinks highly of her but you are reading something from nothing here lol.

Love you bro
Reread what you specifically stated: "The only reason Ri En selected Karin over Kou En was because Karin had 300k men loyal to her"
To which I replied: Even in that panel he doesn't state "because you hold 300k soldiers I need you to be the prime minister with me"

You love doing English language analysis right, let's do one here:
"As the second highest ranking commander in Chu, the one woman who holds sway over 300,000 soldiers including those stationed in our southern outposts, I have need of you and your power."

1st part: As the second highest ranking commander in Chu, - Acknowledgement of her position and authority over the Chu army
2nd part: the one woman who holds sway over 300,000 soldiers including those stationed in our southern outposts, - Lets us know the amount of soldiers she has. The 300k Chu soldiers + ones in the southern outposts.
3rd part: I have need of you and your power - He wants her and her power

Him mentioning her 300k soldiers and exposing the fact he knows about the shit she was hiding, doesn't equate to him wanting her solely because of those 300k soldiers. Why? Because that's not the main reason he's trying to make her PM... Why? Because Hara literally spells out the main reason to make her into PM in the following chapter. And ain't jackshit about soldiers mentioned.

But know what bro, even leaving aside the bullshit about he only wanted her for 300k and not for the fact she'd be utilizing Chu's resources to their full potential as SHK & Riboku do for their nations. You still made up random horseshit about Rien picking her over Kouen. How do you know Kouen didn't reject it? Now we're comparing Kouen & Karin? lmao like wtf are we doing bruh.


So Kouen's opinion of Karin isn't implied, alright cool no problem, but just so I understand this:

Kouen who is the 1st-in-command of all Chu military at the time aka the leader of the Chu military. This entity that Rien went to first in order to discuss about stabilizing Chu. Then Rien who decides to act upon the words of that same entity. You think Rien wouldn't want his approval of who the fuck is gone be the one utilizing Chu's resources for military? Bruh do you not understand the type of entity Kouen is? Karin is in the same position as SHK & Riboku... and Kouen is still above her in military ranking. Know what that mean tho? Karin is under Kouen's command, despite being the PM. And of course, Kouen gave Rien the wisdom related to Chu's resources but he didn't suggest him a solution right? Because Kouen the leader of Chu Military doesn't know about the 2nd in command whom Shunshinkun called a "genius of warfare".

What's crazy is you're not realizing the fact that he could utilize Karin and her 300k people while becoming the PM himself, he doesn't need to promote Karin to PM and make her his equal for that.

However, since it's not directly stated you're more than welcomed to wait it out, until Kouen appears in few years and comments on Karin herself.


Aye love you too bro.
 
I guarantee Karin served under Kouen for a time like Kanmei did.
Bro his authority within Chu is fucking insane.

Is like Shouheikun becoming the Chancellor and Chief of Military, but he was still below Ousen in military command. Like the fact that we have Karin who gets promoted it virtually the same position Riboku held & SHK holds (which is brought up in the manga), and this dude is still the No.1 of Chu Military is crazy. This unprecedented shit bro. Mf literally has the Prime Minister who serves as the Chief of Military for Chu, below him.
:brootea:


It makes you question, what in the blue hell he been doing. We've seen Renpa interacting on panel with higher Chu authorities more than Kouen. Whatever the hell it is, it better be important, cause that shit is gone require a lot of explaining if he's gone be held off until Chu campaign.
 

TheKnightOfTheSea

𝕷𝖔𝖗𝖉 𝖔𝖋 𝕸𝖔𝖔𝖓'𝖘 𝕾𝖕𝖆𝖜𝖓
Bro his authority within Chu is fucking insane.

Is like Shouheikun becoming the Chancellor and Chief of Military, but he was still below Ousen in military command. Like the fact that we have Karin who gets promoted it virtually the same position Riboku held & SHK holds (which is brought up in the manga), and this dude is still the No.1 of Chu Military is crazy. This unprecedented shit bro. Mf literally has the Prime Minister who serves as the Chief of Military for Chu, below him.
:brootea:


It makes you question, what in the blue hell he been doing. We've seen Renpa interacting on panel with higher Chu authorities more than Kouen. Whatever the hell it is, it better be important, cause that shit is gone require a lot of explaining if he's gone be held off until Chu campaign.
I imagine that he's stationed at the front lines. Either dealing with Qi, who he likely has history with, or he's in the south dealing with the southern equivalent of the Xiongnu

Renpa and Kouretsu's dialogue did kinda imply to me that he was in/around the Chu capital at the time though. If there's more political trouble in Chu, I can see Kouen taking a more active role.
 

Elder Lee Hung

Conqueror of the Stars
Him mentioning her 300k soldiers and exposing the fact he knows about the shit she was hiding, doesn't equate to him wanting her solely because of those 300k soldiers. Why? Because that's not the main reason he's trying to make her PM... Why? Because Hara literally spells out the main reason to make her into PM in the following chapter. And ain't jackshit about soldiers mentioned.
But Ri En specifically stated why he needed her. And it was because she had 300k soldiers, and yes because she is the number 2 GG in Chu.

You are taking Ri En’s quote about his method of unifying Chu amazingly out of context. I went back and reread these 2 chapters myself. Chapters 440 and 441 for anyone lurking, and this is why it’s important to have the full context when in discussions and not simply pulling one panel and trying to make a case based on one panel.

So here’s the full context: Karin asked Ri En why he specifically wanted to create a second prime minister position and not just use his one prime minister position to strengthen Chu himself. To which, Ri En responds by what you posted, that this would only lead to a half-assed Chu.

Do you see? Ri En is not stating that he came to Karin because he needed her to strengthen the state of Chu. He is saying that he created the second prime minister rank to strengthen Chu.

But as to why he chose Karin specifically to hold that seat, it is because of her 300k soldiers and her 2nd GG rank.

And again, nothing about what Kou En said implied that he recommended Karin or that he even recommended creating the second prime minister spot at all. Ri En was simply using Kou En’s quote to support his own statement that Chu wasn’t capitalizing on its full strength. So this is all we know about what Kou En said.

But know what bro, even leaving aside the bullshit about he only wanted her for 300k and not for the fact she'd be utilizing Chu's resources to their full potential as SHK & Riboku do for their nations. You still made up random horseshit about Rien picking her over Kouen. How do you know Kouen didn't reject it? Now we're comparing Kouen & Karin? lmao like wtf are we doing bruh.
How do I know Rien didn’t approach Man’U about leading Chu? How do I know Rien didn’t approach Ogiko about leading Chu? What kind of question is this lol…we know what we know, and what we know is that Ri En asked Karin to be the prime minister of Chu. If it’s later revealed that he also asked Kou En, so be it lol, I’m not sure why you asked me this.

Kouen who is the 1st-in-command of all Chu military at the time aka the leader of the Chu military. This entity that Rien went to first in order to discuss about stabilizing Chu. Then Rien who decides to act upon the words of that same entity. You think Rien wouldn't want his approval of who the fuck is gone be the one utilizing Chu's resources for military? Bruh do you not understand the type of entity Kouen is? Karin is in the same position as SHK & Riboku... and Kouen is still above her in military ranking. Know what that mean tho? Karin is under Kouen's command, despite being the PM. And of course, Kouen gave Rien the wisdom related to Chu's resources but he didn't suggest him a solution right? Because Kouen the leader of Chu Military doesn't know about the 2nd in command whom Shunshinkun called a "genius of warfare".
Alright, so a few things:

1. Asking if Ri En would want Kou En’s approval for anything is almost like asking if Sei would want Moubu’s approval to do something. Ri En is above Kou En on the Chu hierarchy. He doesn’t need Kou En’s approval for anything at all. He could demote Kou En to footsoldier if he wanted to, he was (briefly) the sole authority in Chu.

2. I think you are selling Ri En short lol…this dude was already colluding with Shunshinkun and Kouretsu, he is super high ranked in Chu. You have heavy respect for Shunshinkun, this guy Ri En got into an assassin-war with Shunshinkun and won. You can talk about how brilliant Shunshinkun is, what about the guy who literally defeated Shunshinkun in a political war? Ri En ain’t some ignorant fool lol, dude is a top tier mind who literally defeated arguably the most powerful man in China. You act like this is some dumbass who can’t form a single thought without Kou En Sama blessing him with wisdom lmfao. Literally this guy killed Shunshinkun.

3. Your entire argument is just based on you assuming things about Kou En that we don’t know. While also acting like the guy who had Shunshinkun killed can’t form a coherent thought in his head without Kou En thinking for him.

Nah my man, you gotta do better lol.
 
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It makes you question, what in the blue hell he been doing. We've seen Renpa interacting on panel with higher Chu authorities more than Kouen. Whatever the hell it is, it better be important, cause that shit is gone require a lot of explaining if he's gone be held off until Chu campaign.
Inside-the-verse-reason: bruh bruh bruh I've been very busy, Muta's dad from the South has been extremely threatening (he above the Great Heavens), also other things.

Outside-the-verse-reason: to prevent him and Riboku from teaming up:hohoho:
 
Rereading some Ordo related bits at the Coalition, the narrator honestly gave a great deal of hype to Ordo's ability in the mountains.




But that still ended up not mattering at all because Ousen is that guy lmfao.
Pretty much, when it comes to mountain warfare he is at the pinnacle of the verse as far as we know, an average GG going against him in the mountains is akin to charging headfirst into Moubu's army on flatland

So for Ousen to completely outplay him with half his numbers, and make room for his army to protect Kankou pass at any given time is a damn fat W lol @Xione
 
The Great Ou Sen really got compared to Ka Rin? Hillarious. Ou Sen and Reebok are by far the best generals in this manga until Q3 gets to their level they will remain as the top 2.
 
I'm not talking about in a broad sense, i'm talking about in a very narrow sense related to specifically these two. If one is 99 the other is 98.
Why would you use feats as the basis of your argument, while at the sametime acknowledging she lacks screentime.
Like I said before I believe next guidebook will have Ousen jump to 100 intel while Karin stays on 98. Making it a decent gap.

The lack of feats is not an arguement against her, but it's also not an arguement for her. It basically means she can give whatever performance you can imagine in the future.

You can't pull what Riboku did without having that scale of power lol. He doesn't need to know the position of Riboku, but simply the type of power one would have to possess in order to execute such a plan. Reality is despite not being the PM at that time, he possessed the power to execute a state-wide informational lockdown that requires the authority of the SHK atleast to pull off.
You're overthinking this. Great generals have much better authority then regular generals and even if you think that is beyond his rank it's still possible he simply got green light from the capitol. Trying to present it as if Ouki was talking about anything more then Riboku's level as a commander is mental gymnastics, since he had no way to know about his skills in politics or anything else.
 
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