Spoiler General Kingdom Spoiler
- Thread starter Guan Yu
- Start date
- Tags kaneki & mutin kouen > all ousen ousen>cruzeiro riboku>ousen shin > ouhon wingdom
Military discipline doesn't begin at big ordeals. Insubordination is nipped in the bud.
Na Ki was fine at this point.
It's when he commits to a deal with the Saki and talks back that he crosses the line.
Then he silenced his general, for the second raising his hand as though Shin is subordinate to him.
And when reprimanded by Shin, he offers a word of apology with his back turned.
There were plenty of ways for this scene to go down without undermining Shin. As it went down, Shin had every right and reason to give Na Ki a stern talking-to and warning.
This could've been avoided with a "Trust me, captain" or whatever - something to acknowledge Shin trusting in Na Ki's intuition.
Na Ki was fine at this point.
It's when he commits to a deal with the Saki and talks back that he crosses the line.
Then he silenced his general, for the second raising his hand as though Shin is subordinate to him.
And when reprimanded by Shin, he offers a word of apology with his back turned.
There were plenty of ways for this scene to go down without undermining Shin. As it went down, Shin had every right and reason to give Na Ki a stern talking-to and warning.
This could've been avoided with a "Trust me, captain" or whatever - something to acknowledge Shin trusting in Na Ki's intuition.
Naki is the same as he was with Kanki. Spoke up when he needed to say something kept quiet and followed orders when he didn't. Hence he casually walked out on the Kanki army without giving a single fuck and joined up with Shin. He's not gonna change even if Shin gives him some sort of a talk, dude's an individual himself. That "my bad" is the only thing you're getting out of Naki, which coming from his a legit apology lol.
Didn't give a fuck about Kanki's authority when he thought it was best for the war to do something, and simply did what he needed to do.
Hence nobody around Shin took that as "Oh Naki is going against Shin's authority, wtf!!!!" Naki said things, Shin yelled at him, Naki ignored and kept his inquiry up to get the information he wanted (since the captain was being a hot head), then after that Shin yelled at him again and Naki says, "my bad".
Even in the part where you say he "silenced Shin", which technically isn't wrong, but instead of saying "yo chill the fuck down, you're overreacting", he said "Captain"... still showing respect to Shin. Each and everytime he addresses Shin he addresses him as Captain. This is more respect then some of the OG members have shown Shin lol.
If Naki's gonna be questioned for insubordination due to him not caring about Shin's authority for less than 5 minutes where Shin acted like a hot head, despite addressing Shin with respect calling him "captain" and then apologizing with "my bad" (which again is the best apology you're getting Naki, even if it was Ouki you're not gonna get any more than that unless perhaps it was a giant fuck up on his end), then you're asking for a complete change in the core personality of the HSU.
On the other hand you had dudes like Denei calling Shin an asshole , in front of everybody, which as far I know.. is more disrespect to Shin than anything Naki did here (which Naki partially did because his Captain was acting like a hot headed dumbass).
A subordinate ignoring your authority once because of something that's meaningful to them isn't going to cause an insubordination, when they've put their lives at risk to help out your squad plenty of times before that.
You're never gonna see Naki tell Shin to shut up, and then essentially giving out an order to the captain.
Or him showing disrespect to En-san, the man only 2nd in authority to Shin and the man who's fought alongside Shin more than anybody else in the HSU, and this is how he apologized:
Ever see Naki disrespect any other fellow officer or calling anyone names? nope. Did Garo ever change despite Shin yelling at him multiple times? nope. And as pointed out Naki didn't make the decision, because everybody knows the one who calls the shot is still Shin at end of the day, which is made clear again in this chapter, but he said things he needed to say to get the information he wanted (you're making it seem as if Naki would've forced Shin to take em with him lol).
There's also the dude who joined Ouhon initially and didn't give a fuck about his authority really and then overtime started to respect Ouhon, but you never saw Ouhon question him for insubordination. Cause mans was still doing the best for the actual unit.
This is what makes people join the HSU, cause they're chill and not gonna cut your head off if you disrespect the captain even once. Especially when the captain himself was being a hot headed dumbass.
How a general encourages and manages unit cohesion, preparedness and effectiveness is largely at their discretion, but no general is trying to impress upon the rank and file that it is acceptable to disregard the chain of command under any circumstances.
Even the most jovial and informal military commanders that encourage informal attitudes between the rank and file will demand their orders be followed to the letter and the chain of command to be respected at all times.
There is a time and place for everything. That's the critical context your entire rebuttal is missing and why none of the examples of below work. This isn't like any of those occasions where the Hi Shin Army can afford to joke around or petty transgressions can be ignored. It's not the time for that.
They just lost a battle and sustained heavy losses. They're deep behind enemy lines, in unfamiliar territory, cut off from their supply unit and several armies searching for them.
The last thing any general in that situation needs is for his leadership to be undermined.
Do you seriously think Kan Ki suffered anyone being as insubordinate as Na Ki was to Shin? Most certainly not. Na Ki does not have that kind of dynamic with Kan Ki. No one does. The man exacts tolls for failure. What do you think he does to anyone that presumes to speak and make deals for him? Nobody but his inner circle would even dream of doing something that stupid and even they would be shitting bricks in case Kan Ki decided to punish them just on the principle - which is what matters here.
The principle in question is chain of command. An army is nothing without it.
Something as trivial as sending scouts without permission does not begin to compare to the flagrant insubordination of committing to a deal with a third party without authorisation, talking back when questioned, and giving a half-assed apology with your back turned.
People got killed for less in those days. Way less.
Nobody went about that way because that's the way Hara wrote it and my complaint is with the writing.
"Naki ignoed and kept his inquiry" there is your blatant insubordination in your own words. Ignoring your general is a flagrant disregard for the chain of command would absolutely be corrected.
Saying "my bad" with your back turned to your superior officer is not a proper apology in any military-minded person's view. The half-assedness of the apology is damn near as bad as anything else and would've probably gotten people in worse trouble.
Well, it's a good thing you acknowledge he silenced Shin.
If only you could acknowledge that shit would get you severely punished in those days so it's a bit bizarre to see Na Ki do it and get away with it so easily.
Addressing a superior by their rank is not a grand gesture of respect, it is what is expected. Na Ki rarely, if ever, calls Shin by his name either, it's always by rank from what I remember. That's just their dynamic.
Whether Shin is a hothead or not is irrelevant. It's not Na Ki's place to correct his behaviour, that's the part you keep missing.
As I said, critical context.
That placing of the insult in the panel says it all. It's a minor thing in the background for amusement. The entire context of that scenario is so wildly different.
More importantly, this was also a very different time. Shin is now a general, a vastly more prestigious station, with a growing legend spreading through all of China. He's no longer a kid, he's a man in his mid to late 20s. Things have changed tremendously since the time of that panel.
Shin's relationship with his troops has as well. It's still far less formal than most, but they're not quite the ragtag bunch they used to be. There is a lot more overt respect for Shin expressed by his troops. That's been the situation for a while now.
An order only needs to be ignored once for the entire army to pay.
That's why chain of command is so important, and why enforcing it so critical.
Again, very different context.
Ga Ro is expressing concern over his captain's wellbeing in the kind of language they use around each all the time. There is no one around them that matters for him to bother with the proper decorum.
Ga Ro never disrespected En in any way that was beyond the pale given their ranks, nor did it even begin to approach what Na Ki did. He questioned En's ability, it was rude, not egregiously offensive.
What all of your examples fail to get is context.
What happens within the HSA - whether it's petty arguments or name calling - that's considered family business. So long no one is outright refusing to obey orders or violating the chain of command, they're fine.
What makes Na Ki's conduct egregious is that it involved a third party and Na Ki's behaviour was in front of said third party.
Who are you on about?
This isn't accurate for Kan Jou or A Ka Kin. Both have different dynamics with Ou Hon as well. The relationship with Kan Jou was rocky at the beginning because he came from the Ou Sen Army, but he developed a devotion so strong he nearly died for Ou Hon at Shukai.
A Ka Kin is an eccentric, and he nevertheless never fails to pay Ou Hon the proper respects of his station and title.
Neither of these guys have done anything to warrant Ou Hon reprimanding them.
People join the HSU to follow Shin.
The point is not that Shin should kill or punish whoever disobeys him. The point is that there is chain of command to be respected and I don't think Shin would let Na Ki slide as easily as he did, which is why it is dissatisfying writing to me.
Even the most jovial and informal military commanders that encourage informal attitudes between the rank and file will demand their orders be followed to the letter and the chain of command to be respected at all times.
There is a time and place for everything. That's the critical context your entire rebuttal is missing and why none of the examples of below work. This isn't like any of those occasions where the Hi Shin Army can afford to joke around or petty transgressions can be ignored. It's not the time for that.
They just lost a battle and sustained heavy losses. They're deep behind enemy lines, in unfamiliar territory, cut off from their supply unit and several armies searching for them.
The last thing any general in that situation needs is for his leadership to be undermined.
Do you seriously think Kan Ki suffered anyone being as insubordinate as Na Ki was to Shin? Most certainly not. Na Ki does not have that kind of dynamic with Kan Ki. No one does. The man exacts tolls for failure. What do you think he does to anyone that presumes to speak and make deals for him? Nobody but his inner circle would even dream of doing something that stupid and even they would be shitting bricks in case Kan Ki decided to punish them just on the principle - which is what matters here.
The principle in question is chain of command. An army is nothing without it.
Something as trivial as sending scouts without permission does not begin to compare to the flagrant insubordination of committing to a deal with a third party without authorisation, talking back when questioned, and giving a half-assed apology with your back turned.
People got killed for less in those days. Way less.
Nobody went about that way because that's the way Hara wrote it and my complaint is with the writing.
"Naki ignoed and kept his inquiry" there is your blatant insubordination in your own words. Ignoring your general is a flagrant disregard for the chain of command would absolutely be corrected.
Saying "my bad" with your back turned to your superior officer is not a proper apology in any military-minded person's view. The half-assedness of the apology is damn near as bad as anything else and would've probably gotten people in worse trouble.
Well, it's a good thing you acknowledge he silenced Shin.
If only you could acknowledge that shit would get you severely punished in those days so it's a bit bizarre to see Na Ki do it and get away with it so easily.
Addressing a superior by their rank is not a grand gesture of respect, it is what is expected. Na Ki rarely, if ever, calls Shin by his name either, it's always by rank from what I remember. That's just their dynamic.
Whether Shin is a hothead or not is irrelevant. It's not Na Ki's place to correct his behaviour, that's the part you keep missing.
As I said, critical context.
That placing of the insult in the panel says it all. It's a minor thing in the background for amusement. The entire context of that scenario is so wildly different.
More importantly, this was also a very different time. Shin is now a general, a vastly more prestigious station, with a growing legend spreading through all of China. He's no longer a kid, he's a man in his mid to late 20s. Things have changed tremendously since the time of that panel.
Shin's relationship with his troops has as well. It's still far less formal than most, but they're not quite the ragtag bunch they used to be. There is a lot more overt respect for Shin expressed by his troops. That's been the situation for a while now.
An order only needs to be ignored once for the entire army to pay.
That's why chain of command is so important, and why enforcing it so critical.
Again, very different context.
Ga Ro is expressing concern over his captain's wellbeing in the kind of language they use around each all the time. There is no one around them that matters for him to bother with the proper decorum.
Ga Ro never disrespected En in any way that was beyond the pale given their ranks, nor did it even begin to approach what Na Ki did. He questioned En's ability, it was rude, not egregiously offensive.
What all of your examples fail to get is context.
What happens within the HSA - whether it's petty arguments or name calling - that's considered family business. So long no one is outright refusing to obey orders or violating the chain of command, they're fine.
What makes Na Ki's conduct egregious is that it involved a third party and Na Ki's behaviour was in front of said third party.
Who are you on about?
This isn't accurate for Kan Jou or A Ka Kin. Both have different dynamics with Ou Hon as well. The relationship with Kan Jou was rocky at the beginning because he came from the Ou Sen Army, but he developed a devotion so strong he nearly died for Ou Hon at Shukai.
A Ka Kin is an eccentric, and he nevertheless never fails to pay Ou Hon the proper respects of his station and title.
Neither of these guys have done anything to warrant Ou Hon reprimanding them.
People join the HSU to follow Shin.
The point is not that Shin should kill or punish whoever disobeys him. The point is that there is chain of command to be respected and I don't think Shin would let Na Ki slide as easily as he did, which is why it is dissatisfying writing to me.
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This is the first time I've actually lost interest in a campaign in Kingdom, imo this current Gian arc has multiple issues that hold me back from really enjoying it.
First and foremost being the fact that Riboku has such an overwhelming numerical advantage. When the combined Ousen-Kanki-Yotanwa armies first invaded Zhao they were being attacked by armies from all directions because they plunged right into Zhao territory, so to speak, most of those armies were later defeated, and or retreated back to the upper region around Kantan in order to hold a defensive line against Qin. Then we saw Kanki behead 100K soldiers on top of the soldiers that were already killed during the Eikyuu campaign. I'm not saying that Zhao shouldn't have propper armies to deal with their enemies but Riboku showing up with a 300K army sort of breaks the element of suspense and realism this series has built up.
But even so, the issue is that the entire purpose of this arc is gone. If Kanki and Riboku have equal numbers we can simply see them utilising different tacticts against one another like how Ousen and Riboku did and the clash between their vassals. Instead of that everything now revolves around having to escape Riboku's cage. Riboku whipping Kanki's ass with less numbers would have been far more interesting.
Furthermore I feel like the whole concept of Kanki's weakness was poorly executed. Riboku's explenation of how Kanki doesn't relly on orthodox methods of warfare doesn't really add up when you consider that all of Kanki's vassals seem to be on par with regular generals (Maron/Kinmou, Ringyoku-Kokuo/ Kouhako Kou, Raido/ Ryuuhaku Kou). On top of other smaller clans like the Naki clan that were succesfully intergrated into the Hi Shin unit and are quite adapt at warfare and stealth. I initially thought that finding about Kanki's weakness would give me sort of 'aha' moment, like everything is in place now, but instead it just makes me wonder about everything more.
So what if Kanki hasn't studied warfare, he's accumulated more than enough experience serving Mougou and has always been setup as a master of Warfare. Riboku also completely seems to overlook the fact that him and Kanki already clashed during the Gyou arc where Kanki's army was overwhelming him.
By comparison I feel like the Atsuyo and Rumou mini arcs were done much better, relatively fast-paced arcs in which we see both sides have moments of shine. Zhao doesn't need to have more soldiers to win but simply higher morale and better strategies which is why Kan Saro's introduction was so hype.
All the things I did like in this current arc (Shin-Mouten vs the Seika generals, Rikusen and Aisen moments of shine, Zenou clan in action) could have been done without the 310 K vs 140 K setup.
2 weeks
First and foremost being the fact that Riboku has such an overwhelming numerical advantage. When the combined Ousen-Kanki-Yotanwa armies first invaded Zhao they were being attacked by armies from all directions because they plunged right into Zhao territory, so to speak, most of those armies were later defeated, and or retreated back to the upper region around Kantan in order to hold a defensive line against Qin. Then we saw Kanki behead 100K soldiers on top of the soldiers that were already killed during the Eikyuu campaign. I'm not saying that Zhao shouldn't have propper armies to deal with their enemies but Riboku showing up with a 300K army sort of breaks the element of suspense and realism this series has built up.
But even so, the issue is that the entire purpose of this arc is gone. If Kanki and Riboku have equal numbers we can simply see them utilising different tacticts against one another like how Ousen and Riboku did and the clash between their vassals. Instead of that everything now revolves around having to escape Riboku's cage. Riboku whipping Kanki's ass with less numbers would have been far more interesting.
Furthermore I feel like the whole concept of Kanki's weakness was poorly executed. Riboku's explenation of how Kanki doesn't relly on orthodox methods of warfare doesn't really add up when you consider that all of Kanki's vassals seem to be on par with regular generals (Maron/Kinmou, Ringyoku-Kokuo/ Kouhako Kou, Raido/ Ryuuhaku Kou). On top of other smaller clans like the Naki clan that were succesfully intergrated into the Hi Shin unit and are quite adapt at warfare and stealth. I initially thought that finding about Kanki's weakness would give me sort of 'aha' moment, like everything is in place now, but instead it just makes me wonder about everything more.
So what if Kanki hasn't studied warfare, he's accumulated more than enough experience serving Mougou and has always been setup as a master of Warfare. Riboku also completely seems to overlook the fact that him and Kanki already clashed during the Gyou arc where Kanki's army was overwhelming him.
All the things I did like in this current arc (Shin-Mouten vs the Seika generals, Rikusen and Aisen moments of shine, Zenou clan in action) could have been done without the 310 K vs 140 K setup.
Post automatically merged:
2 weeks
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This is the first time I've actually lost interest in a campaign in Kingdom, imo this current Gian arc has multiple issues that hold me back from really enjoying it.
First and foremost being the fact that Riboku has such an overwhelming numerical advantage. When the combined Ousen-Kanki-Yotanwa armies first invaded Zhao they were being attacked by armies from all directions because they plunged right into Zhao territory, so to speak, most of those armies were later defeated, and or retreated back to the upper region around Kantan in order to hold a defensive line against Qin. Then we saw Kanki behead 100K soldiers on top of the soldiers that were already killed during the Eikyuu campaign. I'm not saying that Zhao shouldn't have propper armies to deal with their enemies but Riboku showing up with a 300K army sort of breaks the element of suspense and realism this series has built up.
But even so, the issue is that the entire purpose of this arc is gone. If Kanki and Riboku have equal numbers we can simply see them utilising different tacticts against one another like how Ousen and Riboku did and the clash between their vassals. Instead of that everything now revolves around having to escape Riboku's cage. Riboku whipping Kanki's ass with less numbers would have been far more interesting.
Furthermore I feel like the whole concept of Kanki's weakness was poorly executed. Riboku's explenation of how Kanki doesn't relly on orthodox methods of warfare doesn't really add up when you consider that all of Kanki's vassals seem to be on par with regular generals (Maron/Kinmou, Ringyoku-Kokuo/ Kouhako Kou, Raido/ Ryuuhaku Kou). On top of other smaller clans like the Naki clan that were succesfully intergrated into the Hi Shin unit and are quite adapt at warfare and stealth. I initially thought that finding about Kanki's weakness would give me sort of 'aha' moment, like everything is in place now, but instead it just makes me wonder about everything more.
So what if Kanki hasn't studied warfare, he's accumulated more than enough experience serving Mougou and has always been setup as a master of Warfare. Riboku also completely seems to overlook the fact that him and Kanki already clashed during the Gyou arc where Kanki's army was overwhelming him.
By comparison I feel like the Atsuyo and Rumou mini arcs were done much better, relatively fast-paced arcs in which we see both sides have moments of shine. Zhao doesn't need to have more soldiers to win but simply higher morale and better strategies which is why Kan Saro's introduction was so hype.
All the things I did like in this current arc (Shin-Mouten vs the Seika generals, Rikusen and Aisen moments of shine, Zenou clan in action) could have been done without the 310 K vs 140 K setup.
2 weeks
First and foremost being the fact that Riboku has such an overwhelming numerical advantage. When the combined Ousen-Kanki-Yotanwa armies first invaded Zhao they were being attacked by armies from all directions because they plunged right into Zhao territory, so to speak, most of those armies were later defeated, and or retreated back to the upper region around Kantan in order to hold a defensive line against Qin. Then we saw Kanki behead 100K soldiers on top of the soldiers that were already killed during the Eikyuu campaign. I'm not saying that Zhao shouldn't have propper armies to deal with their enemies but Riboku showing up with a 300K army sort of breaks the element of suspense and realism this series has built up.
But even so, the issue is that the entire purpose of this arc is gone. If Kanki and Riboku have equal numbers we can simply see them utilising different tacticts against one another like how Ousen and Riboku did and the clash between their vassals. Instead of that everything now revolves around having to escape Riboku's cage. Riboku whipping Kanki's ass with less numbers would have been far more interesting.
Furthermore I feel like the whole concept of Kanki's weakness was poorly executed. Riboku's explenation of how Kanki doesn't relly on orthodox methods of warfare doesn't really add up when you consider that all of Kanki's vassals seem to be on par with regular generals (Maron/Kinmou, Ringyoku-Kokuo/ Kouhako Kou, Raido/ Ryuuhaku Kou). On top of other smaller clans like the Naki clan that were succesfully intergrated into the Hi Shin unit and are quite adapt at warfare and stealth. I initially thought that finding about Kanki's weakness would give me sort of 'aha' moment, like everything is in place now, but instead it just makes me wonder about everything more.
So what if Kanki hasn't studied warfare, he's accumulated more than enough experience serving Mougou and has always been setup as a master of Warfare. Riboku also completely seems to overlook the fact that him and Kanki already clashed during the Gyou arc where Kanki's army was overwhelming him.
All the things I did like in this current arc (Shin-Mouten vs the Seika generals, Rikusen and Aisen moments of shine, Zenou clan in action) could have been done without the 310 K vs 140 K setup.
Post automatically merged:
2 weeks
it was ndver mentioned that kosho army is last big army or after kanki killed 100k zhou lost most of her numbers
it's only your assumption that lead to this disappointment.
remember that hakuki killed 400k and even that zhou still have numbers.
also it seems u didn't focus on the chapters
it was mentioned that Riboku gathered those 300k from many places in the north .
...
but yeah if zhou lost most of those 300k then yeah they shouldn't pull any big numbers anymore.
...
You said things here for which I don't even disagree with. And don't really counter anything I said in the part your quoted.
Anyone say Shin is trying to have his subordinates not follow his command when needed? Nope
Anyone say Shin isn't trying to have his chain of command respected? nope
"These is a time and place for everything"... very reasoning I can apply to Naki
They had been taking Ls after Ls that was resulting in a giant negative for the Qin collective army, when Denei was calling the captain an asshole in front of everybody, because he stopped Denei from punching a little girl.
Garo telling Shin to the shut the fuck up, while Shin was trying his best to get em the fuck outta there in a desperate situation with his body partially fucked up...But of course isn't this disrespect, this is "family business"...
You don't have a consistent definition of what would be considered "Respect" for Shin.
insubordination:
- the refusal to obey someone who is in a higher position than you and who has the authority to tell you what to do:
- the act of refusing to obey orders from someone in authority
- the quality or condition of being insubordinate, or of being disobedient to authority; defiance:
1st. He didn't disobey any orders from Shin. Nor was he defiant to Shin. Ignoring the captain's complaints (which is what they were) is not the same as refusing to obey his orders. Had Shin told Naki to step the fuck down, he would've done so. But no, do you know what Shin did?? He yelled at him saying "Naki I'm the one who makes decisions here".. That's not an order, that's complaining to somebody and explaining them to who's got authority. Is it disrespect? Yes, Insubordination? No.
2nd. And do you know what Naki would've done if Kanki tried that toll shit on him? Walked away or fought against Kanki. That's who Naki is, man didn't give a single fuck about Kanki when he left the army despite having gone through many wars with him. Did you see him offer an apology? Nope. He simply asked to be requested to be transferred to the HSU while looking right at him in the eyes... While everyone else took that as disrespect to Kanki and yelled at him. But you believe this is a less of an issue compared to what just happened now.
3rd. "Something as trivial"... yikes. Something so trivial that it required permission from Kanki, hence Maron pointed it out. Something so trivial as sending out scouts deep into enemy location where they could've been wiped out or could've potentially fucked up the grand plan by Kanki by giving up their locations or various other scenarios, you know something that impacts the entire ONGOING battle, hence Maron talks about asking permission. But that's trivial.. right. No my guy, that's called disregard for authority. So no it's not something trivial, otherwise Maron wouldn't have brought it up. There's a procedure for that for a reason.
4th. Yes people got killed for less in those days. For example insulting your captain with vulgar language in front of everyone after he tells you to back off. Putting a sword on the commander-in-chief's neck because you disagree with a decision he made. Leading a mini revolt upon the General's group because of disagreeing with a decision he made. Insulting the commander-in-chief with names to his face, because you don't like him. Do you know what is insubordination though? Disobeying the commander-in-chief's orders and trying to do your own thing because see it as the best which results in the L for campaign (Moubu). Or when the commander-in-chief tells you to go after Kisui, and you decide on your own its better for you to chase down Riboku.. that's defying orders last time I checked.
And if you want to get fully real on the insubordination, Naki is preventing Shin from committing it against Kanki. Whether Saki clan can go to Gi'an or not is not Shin's decision to make. It's a decision already made by the commander-in-chief, Kanki. Shin doesn't have any authority over the Saki clan. He can refuse them entry to Gi'an, which would be against the commander-in-chief's orders.. aka insubordination. Hence Saki clan flat out tells him It's Not His Call To Make. It has already been made by the leading officer, Kanki. It's up to Shin whether he'll cooperate with them or not. And if he doesn't, he's going against Kanki's command to the overall army, which is going to Gi'an. And if he prevents the Saki clan from going there, he's going against Kanki's orders as well.
Threatening fellow Qin soldiers? Hmm....doesn't look good when it comes to insubordination, when he has no authority over them. (Saki clan is directly under the authority of Kanki, and nobody else).
5th. Naki doesn't have the authority to make the decisions, which everyone there knows lol. So its' pointless to even act like he made the decision on behalf of Shin, when Shin can refuse it. I don't understand how you don't get that. You're acting as if Naki signed a contract with the Saki clan that Shin now has to follow... nope. Shin can very well still say "nah bro we ain't doing this", and Naki would follow along. Hence my point, he said what he needed to say to the Saki clan to get the information he had been wanting for ages now. Hell there's been build up to this very moment since the end of the Keisha campaign.
But point being there is no insubordination that happened here. Something that can be viewed as disrespect? Yes.. and for which Naki apologized with "my bad", which I said is the best you're gonna get out of somebody like Naki. Hence Shin took it and didn't say anything to him after that.
- Right and the point being made is it's not a big deal or an issue hence Hara wrote it the way it is.
- Ignoring complains of your commanding officer for a few minutes to inquire about important information, when your commanding officer was acting like a hot headed idiot, isn't insubordination. It was corrected, hence Naki's "my bad".
- People apologize in different ways, as I've already mentioned. How meaningful that apology is to that person is not something you decide. "any military-minded person's view", you're now relying on generalizing every military minded person as the same... not how it works. And what was the apology that Shin gave to Kanki after committing actual insubordination? Let me show you:
Oh look at that... he ain't give no apology to the commanding officer of the army. But now we need an apology form Naki more than "my bad" which is meaningful coming from Naki who didn't even apology to Naki about leaving his army? Yeaaa buddy
Idk why you're speaking of "in those days" as if every single military unit ran during those days operated the same mindset. They didn't. Would some have killed their subordinates for that? yes.. some would've killed their subordinates for calling them an asshole after they've been told to back down.. But shin ain't one of those. He by all means is not the norm.
Actually the reason you address a superior officer by their rank is to show respect. If Naki was committing insubordination as you're exaggeratingly putting it, he wouldn't be showing respect to Shin by addressing him as captain, and not once yelling or calling any names at him. It's not "just their dynamic".
Actually it is relevant, and no I'm not missing that part, because that part doesn't exist. He didn't correct Shin's behavior lol.
Ahhh so you're on the "Hara didn't write it in a major way so it's not a major thing"... now apply that same logic here. If this was a big deal, Hara would've made it a big deal, it wasn't.. hence Hara even drew Shin in a gagish way lol.
You're now saying disrespect to the captain is ok in certain scenarios.. while not ok in others. But who decides which scenarios are ok or not? lol
You'd be wrong there again, Shins' relationship with his squad is still pretty much the same, especially the OG squad of officers. Hence mfs like Garo can tell his ass to the shut the fuck up when he's struggling on the battlefield and fighting for his life lol.
No order was ignored here. Because no order was actually given to Naki.
Telling the captain to Shut up after he asks how you are is not expressing concern over his captain's well being, not sure how you correlated the two. Try saying shut up to an actual commanding officer of modern day military, let alone from those times (since ya like bringing up those times ahah) and see how that gets you treated. HSU is the only place in the entire Kingdom-verse where that type of shit slides.
You've essentially turned it into "disrespect is fine, when there's no one around for it to matter".. guess what? You're never gonna catch Naki telling Shin to shut up even if there's no one around them.
He actually did, Garo at that point had not even 10% of the authority that En-san had, on what terms does he have the right to question the 2nd-in-command of the HSU, who has fought alongside Shin the longest out of anyone (including out of Kyoukai/Behei/Ten/etc)... Not a single mf has ever questioned Ensan's capabilities until Garo.
Have fun questioning vice-commanding officer's abilities who has been with the commanding officer the longest on the battlefield.. and see how
Yea you're pretty much on "feel free to insult as long as it's not in front of others".. yeaa that's called being fake my guy. Which HSU isn't.
Again more excuses to justify disrespect. It was ok for Kanjou to show disobedience to Ouhon because of a different dynamic due to coming from Ousen's army.. lol what??
What you're failing to realize is that Naki since the moment he joined (its been years now that he's been part of the crew) has been obedient and devoted to Shin. He didn't need multiple battles to accept Shin.
This is not really true. People of relevance join the HSU for what the HSU as a collective is about not just Shin himself. Is Shin the main reason why the HSU is the way it is? yes already pointed out in my post before. The people of relevance who joined the HSU:
Gakurai who joined the HSU due to the Duke entrusting the shield to him (though this wasn't some sort of a major reason for him). However, what impressed Gakurai the most and made it good for him was the collective environment of the HSU:
Sosui, who was honored to join the HSU not just because of Shin, but because of the collective unit. Because of how they were made up of bunch of common folk who rose in military.
And why did the man at hand leave a bigger general, Kanki, to join a 5000-man commander? Just to follow him? Nope. But because of what the HSU as a collective is. The people in it, how they treat each other, what they're all about, and etc.
Yes I understand your point, however I don't think you're realizing the small contradiction you're making in this very statement. "The chain of command needs to be respected", right which Naki did, hence his "My bad", but you aren't satisfied with that, which you're entitled to. However, I simply disagree with the notion that this was the ultimate disrespect or something shown by a subordinate to Shin. Kanjou/Denei/Garo showed much worst disrespect to their commanding officers, imo, than anything Naki did here, and did so without any "my bad". The types of "disrespect" that'd have their heads rolling "in those days".
And also you brought up Ten in one of your previous posts, to point how Shin would react to such a scenario. But didn't take into account, Karyo Ten was a newbie to the HSU with 0 battle experience who started ordering around the HSU. Naki has been an officer in the HSU for 4 years now, where he's tactically contributed to the HSU many times, Shin is not going to react the same way.
But hey you're entitled to disagree with writing choices of Hara. Though.. gotta say Naki is under a leader who's committed actual insubordination and far more disrespect against commanding officers than anything Naki has shown in the entire manga. Would be hilarious to see Shin try and punish Naki for this without looking like a walking hypocrite.
But another issue is, maybe it's only me.. but this arc has been giving me: "This can't be mfin Riboku" vibes.
Anyone say Shin is trying to have his subordinates not follow his command when needed? Nope
Anyone say Shin isn't trying to have his chain of command respected? nope
"These is a time and place for everything"... very reasoning I can apply to Naki
They had been taking Ls after Ls that was resulting in a giant negative for the Qin collective army, when Denei was calling the captain an asshole in front of everybody, because he stopped Denei from punching a little girl.
Garo telling Shin to the shut the fuck up, while Shin was trying his best to get em the fuck outta there in a desperate situation with his body partially fucked up...But of course isn't this disrespect, this is "family business"...
You don't have a consistent definition of what would be considered "Respect" for Shin.
insubordination:
- the refusal to obey someone who is in a higher position than you and who has the authority to tell you what to do:
- the act of refusing to obey orders from someone in authority
- the quality or condition of being insubordinate, or of being disobedient to authority; defiance:
1st. He didn't disobey any orders from Shin. Nor was he defiant to Shin. Ignoring the captain's complaints (which is what they were) is not the same as refusing to obey his orders. Had Shin told Naki to step the fuck down, he would've done so. But no, do you know what Shin did?? He yelled at him saying "Naki I'm the one who makes decisions here".. That's not an order, that's complaining to somebody and explaining them to who's got authority. Is it disrespect? Yes, Insubordination? No.
2nd. And do you know what Naki would've done if Kanki tried that toll shit on him? Walked away or fought against Kanki. That's who Naki is, man didn't give a single fuck about Kanki when he left the army despite having gone through many wars with him. Did you see him offer an apology? Nope. He simply asked to be requested to be transferred to the HSU while looking right at him in the eyes... While everyone else took that as disrespect to Kanki and yelled at him. But you believe this is a less of an issue compared to what just happened now.
3rd. "Something as trivial"... yikes. Something so trivial that it required permission from Kanki, hence Maron pointed it out. Something so trivial as sending out scouts deep into enemy location where they could've been wiped out or could've potentially fucked up the grand plan by Kanki by giving up their locations or various other scenarios, you know something that impacts the entire ONGOING battle, hence Maron talks about asking permission. But that's trivial.. right. No my guy, that's called disregard for authority. So no it's not something trivial, otherwise Maron wouldn't have brought it up. There's a procedure for that for a reason.
4th. Yes people got killed for less in those days. For example insulting your captain with vulgar language in front of everyone after he tells you to back off. Putting a sword on the commander-in-chief's neck because you disagree with a decision he made. Leading a mini revolt upon the General's group because of disagreeing with a decision he made. Insulting the commander-in-chief with names to his face, because you don't like him. Do you know what is insubordination though? Disobeying the commander-in-chief's orders and trying to do your own thing because see it as the best which results in the L for campaign (Moubu). Or when the commander-in-chief tells you to go after Kisui, and you decide on your own its better for you to chase down Riboku.. that's defying orders last time I checked.
And if you want to get fully real on the insubordination, Naki is preventing Shin from committing it against Kanki. Whether Saki clan can go to Gi'an or not is not Shin's decision to make. It's a decision already made by the commander-in-chief, Kanki. Shin doesn't have any authority over the Saki clan. He can refuse them entry to Gi'an, which would be against the commander-in-chief's orders.. aka insubordination. Hence Saki clan flat out tells him It's Not His Call To Make. It has already been made by the leading officer, Kanki. It's up to Shin whether he'll cooperate with them or not. And if he doesn't, he's going against Kanki's command to the overall army, which is going to Gi'an. And if he prevents the Saki clan from going there, he's going against Kanki's orders as well.
Threatening fellow Qin soldiers? Hmm....doesn't look good when it comes to insubordination, when he has no authority over them. (Saki clan is directly under the authority of Kanki, and nobody else).
5th. Naki doesn't have the authority to make the decisions, which everyone there knows lol. So its' pointless to even act like he made the decision on behalf of Shin, when Shin can refuse it. I don't understand how you don't get that. You're acting as if Naki signed a contract with the Saki clan that Shin now has to follow... nope. Shin can very well still say "nah bro we ain't doing this", and Naki would follow along. Hence my point, he said what he needed to say to the Saki clan to get the information he had been wanting for ages now. Hell there's been build up to this very moment since the end of the Keisha campaign.
But point being there is no insubordination that happened here. Something that can be viewed as disrespect? Yes.. and for which Naki apologized with "my bad", which I said is the best you're gonna get out of somebody like Naki. Hence Shin took it and didn't say anything to him after that.
- Right and the point being made is it's not a big deal or an issue hence Hara wrote it the way it is.
- Ignoring complains of your commanding officer for a few minutes to inquire about important information, when your commanding officer was acting like a hot headed idiot, isn't insubordination. It was corrected, hence Naki's "my bad".
- People apologize in different ways, as I've already mentioned. How meaningful that apology is to that person is not something you decide. "any military-minded person's view", you're now relying on generalizing every military minded person as the same... not how it works. And what was the apology that Shin gave to Kanki after committing actual insubordination? Let me show you:
Idk why you're speaking of "in those days" as if every single military unit ran during those days operated the same mindset. They didn't. Would some have killed their subordinates for that? yes.. some would've killed their subordinates for calling them an asshole after they've been told to back down.. But shin ain't one of those. He by all means is not the norm.
Actually the reason you address a superior officer by their rank is to show respect. If Naki was committing insubordination as you're exaggeratingly putting it, he wouldn't be showing respect to Shin by addressing him as captain, and not once yelling or calling any names at him. It's not "just their dynamic".
Actually it is relevant, and no I'm not missing that part, because that part doesn't exist. He didn't correct Shin's behavior lol.
Ahhh so you're on the "Hara didn't write it in a major way so it's not a major thing"... now apply that same logic here. If this was a big deal, Hara would've made it a big deal, it wasn't.. hence Hara even drew Shin in a gagish way lol.
You're now saying disrespect to the captain is ok in certain scenarios.. while not ok in others. But who decides which scenarios are ok or not? lol
You'd be wrong there again, Shins' relationship with his squad is still pretty much the same, especially the OG squad of officers. Hence mfs like Garo can tell his ass to the shut the fuck up when he's struggling on the battlefield and fighting for his life lol.
No order was ignored here. Because no order was actually given to Naki.
Telling the captain to Shut up after he asks how you are is not expressing concern over his captain's well being, not sure how you correlated the two. Try saying shut up to an actual commanding officer of modern day military, let alone from those times (since ya like bringing up those times ahah) and see how that gets you treated. HSU is the only place in the entire Kingdom-verse where that type of shit slides.
You've essentially turned it into "disrespect is fine, when there's no one around for it to matter".. guess what? You're never gonna catch Naki telling Shin to shut up even if there's no one around them.
He actually did, Garo at that point had not even 10% of the authority that En-san had, on what terms does he have the right to question the 2nd-in-command of the HSU, who has fought alongside Shin the longest out of anyone (including out of Kyoukai/Behei/Ten/etc)... Not a single mf has ever questioned Ensan's capabilities until Garo.
Have fun questioning vice-commanding officer's abilities who has been with the commanding officer the longest on the battlefield.. and see how
Yea you're pretty much on "feel free to insult as long as it's not in front of others".. yeaa that's called being fake my guy. Which HSU isn't.
Again more excuses to justify disrespect. It was ok for Kanjou to show disobedience to Ouhon because of a different dynamic due to coming from Ousen's army.. lol what??
What you're failing to realize is that Naki since the moment he joined (its been years now that he's been part of the crew) has been obedient and devoted to Shin. He didn't need multiple battles to accept Shin.
This is not really true. People of relevance join the HSU for what the HSU as a collective is about not just Shin himself. Is Shin the main reason why the HSU is the way it is? yes already pointed out in my post before. The people of relevance who joined the HSU:
Gakurai who joined the HSU due to the Duke entrusting the shield to him (though this wasn't some sort of a major reason for him). However, what impressed Gakurai the most and made it good for him was the collective environment of the HSU:
Sosui, who was honored to join the HSU not just because of Shin, but because of the collective unit. Because of how they were made up of bunch of common folk who rose in military.
And why did the man at hand leave a bigger general, Kanki, to join a 5000-man commander? Just to follow him? Nope. But because of what the HSU as a collective is. The people in it, how they treat each other, what they're all about, and etc.
Yes I understand your point, however I don't think you're realizing the small contradiction you're making in this very statement. "The chain of command needs to be respected", right which Naki did, hence his "My bad", but you aren't satisfied with that, which you're entitled to. However, I simply disagree with the notion that this was the ultimate disrespect or something shown by a subordinate to Shin. Kanjou/Denei/Garo showed much worst disrespect to their commanding officers, imo, than anything Naki did here, and did so without any "my bad". The types of "disrespect" that'd have their heads rolling "in those days".
And also you brought up Ten in one of your previous posts, to point how Shin would react to such a scenario. But didn't take into account, Karyo Ten was a newbie to the HSU with 0 battle experience who started ordering around the HSU. Naki has been an officer in the HSU for 4 years now, where he's tactically contributed to the HSU many times, Shin is not going to react the same way.
But hey you're entitled to disagree with writing choices of Hara. Though.. gotta say Naki is under a leader who's committed actual insubordination and far more disrespect against commanding officers than anything Naki has shown in the entire manga. Would be hilarious to see Shin try and punish Naki for this without looking like a walking hypocrite.
Post automatically merged:
But another issue is, maybe it's only me.. but this arc has been giving me: "This can't be mfin Riboku" vibes.
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let me try to answer some of the problems I hope it will satisfy you
it doesnt really break it because Zhao mobilized there whole army in this campaign before they couldnt the eastern army was at the yan border
the northern army was there for yotanwa
the royal army did nothing
The western army was too far away
So Riboku didnt have any time to be prepared like he had it in gian he had to act fast and get what he could noramlly Qins campaign would end in a failure in 999/1000
The other reason is the other armies didnt have act because of the other nations possible invasion they need a shield the border
Also Riboku was sure Gyou wouldnt fall and Qin didnt have a supply chain
this time Riboku had everything mobilized and used Zhaos full might against Qin
lets take a look at the numbers
Ousen army 90.000
Shin,Kamki and co 90.000
Eastern army 210.000
the Qin had 390,000 mobilized to wipe the floor with Zhao Riboku only had 310.000 plus the ambush team a few ten thousand
So looking at the full scale Zhao was at a dire situation and used their brain to get out of it
they also abandoned many castles and focuse there power on one point the plains before Gian
its still a fight of tactics but not just on a battlefield but a greater scale how Riboku created the cage was amazing he showed us there is more than just taking a glaive and charging towards an enemy
He is trying to deduce what Qin would do and counter it he showed us that strategy is superior to all so if you look at how Riboku thought than its the same as they fought with equal numbers but on different scale
So Qin had 390.00 vs Zhao 310.000 + ambush team
Riboku calculated it and formulated a strategy to crush Qin to the ground while preserving Zhaos numbers and inflicting bloody loses to Qin what he did was fantastic it was strategy vs strategy Ousen and SHK vs Riboku
Riboku won
Kankis weakness is not his warefare method Maron and the others are good generals it is his reckless attitude which will be his downfall I bet on it its a pity nobody took an advantage of it
As I wrote its orginally its bigger but Riboku reduced it
it doesnt really break it because Zhao mobilized there whole army in this campaign before they couldnt the eastern army was at the yan border
the northern army was there for yotanwa
the royal army did nothing
The western army was too far away
So Riboku didnt have any time to be prepared like he had it in gian he had to act fast and get what he could noramlly Qins campaign would end in a failure in 999/1000
The other reason is the other armies didnt have act because of the other nations possible invasion they need a shield the border
Also Riboku was sure Gyou wouldnt fall and Qin didnt have a supply chain
this time Riboku had everything mobilized and used Zhaos full might against Qin
lets take a look at the numbers
Ousen army 90.000
Shin,Kamki and co 90.000
Eastern army 210.000
the Qin had 390,000 mobilized to wipe the floor with Zhao Riboku only had 310.000 plus the ambush team a few ten thousand
So looking at the full scale Zhao was at a dire situation and used their brain to get out of it
they also abandoned many castles and focuse there power on one point the plains before Gian
its still a fight of tactics but not just on a battlefield but a greater scale how Riboku created the cage was amazing he showed us there is more than just taking a glaive and charging towards an enemy
He is trying to deduce what Qin would do and counter it he showed us that strategy is superior to all so if you look at how Riboku thought than its the same as they fought with equal numbers but on different scale
So Qin had 390.00 vs Zhao 310.000 + ambush team
Riboku calculated it and formulated a strategy to crush Qin to the ground while preserving Zhaos numbers and inflicting bloody loses to Qin what he did was fantastic it was strategy vs strategy Ousen and SHK vs Riboku
Riboku won
Kankis weakness is not his warefare method Maron and the others are good generals it is his reckless attitude which will be his downfall I bet on it its a pity nobody took an advantage of it
As I wrote its orginally its bigger but Riboku reduced it
Good.
The problem is that you don't seem to recognise that Na Ki is directly contradicting the chain of command in the latest chapter.
I have no idea what this means.
You keep bumping into this thing and it's wild to me that you don't get the difference.
Not only are you using an example from years ago, when Shin was younger and occupied a different station, you insist on actually arguing something clearly played for laughs to be something else, rather than just admit your comparison doesn't work.
Don't waste my time with this bullshit.
Now you are completely mischaracterising that event to support your flimsy argument. Why do you bother with this?
Inconsistency on my behalf isn't the issue here.
The issue is your lack of understanding compounded by willful ignorance.
You are taking entirely different situations and comparing them on the most superficial basis, while conveniently ignoring the fundamental differences I have outlined in my response.
In not one of your examples do you have a situation involving a third party.
In not one of those examples - old as some of them are - do you have any lines of authority being crossed or challenged.
What Shin allows and tolerates within the unit is up to him. Like I said, that's family business.
But just as you won't tolerate certain behaviours from your friends in public as you do in private, Shin is not one who will - or should -tolerate insubordination, especially not in front of a third party.
Na Ki made an unauthorised deal with and in front a third party.
Na Ki talked back to his general, in front of a third party.
Na Ki silenced his general, in front of a third party.
Na Ki gave a half-assed apology with his back turned, in front of a third party.
Are you starting to feel silly yet for trying to argue those ridiculous examples you brought up come even close?
I am a lawyer.
If you want to go by text book definitions, strap in.
Na Ki was defiant the moment he talked back.
Yes, it is.
How are you going to presume to quote the dictionary to me and then argue Na Ki wasn't insubordinate because he was ignoring an order rather than refusing it. That is stupid.
1) "Quit screwing around" is very clear in its meaning: desist in what you are doing, i.e. STOP.
2) Disrespect IS insubordination, and the fact you that don't realise that explains so much
You seem to forget the Na Ki clan was attacked upon their departure from the Kan Ki Army, and Kan Ki didn't do anything to stop that.
I don't know why you have this particular reading of Na Ki, nor do I particularly care, but nothing you've said is even suggestive of evidence Na Ki would pull what he did just now with Kan Ki. Na Ki is a shrewd individual, he knows not to push the boundaries. What you're suggesting is ridiculous.
Yes, comparative to his egregious behaviour in front of the Saki, sending out a few scouts without permission is trivial by comparison, since we do not know for a fact Kan Ki's orders were contradicted.
Dress it up as much as you'd like, you're grasping at straws.
I'm not going to decipher all this nonsense.
From what I can gather:
Ga Ro - already addressed
Kyou Kai - Kan Ki was already in violation of laws of war, there's a reason they got off scott free
Mou Bu could've very well been punished for Bayou.
That Shin has been defiant and insubordinate in the past is completely irrelevant to whether he should accept it from Na Ki. Especially under present circumstances.
Kan Ki isn't there, they are unable to locate him or even verify whether he is alive.
Shin is the ranking superior officer. EVERYTHING is his call to make right now because he was not given explicit orders by Kan Ki regarding the siege of Gian or the Saki clan.
Shin is in no danger of being accused of insubordination. As the ranking Qin officer, he has full authority to command all those ranked below him - that includes the Saki clan so long as they remain affiliated with Qin.
As established, the Saki have already refused his order, he is well within his rights to deal with them.
It doesn't matter whether Na Ki can actually deliver on any deals he agrees to.
Presuming to even speak on behalf of his general in such dealings without prior authorisation or permission is the issue.
That's what you're not getting it.
It is not Na Ki's place to make deals for his general. It's not his place to speak for his general. The way he went about doing both is what's cause for reprimand.
Insubordination very much happened here, and if you think your reasoning for why Na Ki's apology is enough should fly, you must not be familiar with military institutions.
It doesn't matter how tough a son of a bitch you are. When you fuck up, you will know it, and you will damn sure acknowledge it.
There is so much stupid in this alone, but the fact you follow up with an example of the aftermath of Kan Ki violating the laws of war and slaughtering civilians just say it all.
I'm wasting my time.
The problem is that you don't seem to recognise that Na Ki is directly contradicting the chain of command in the latest chapter.
I have no idea what this means.
You keep bumping into this thing and it's wild to me that you don't get the difference.
Not only are you using an example from years ago, when Shin was younger and occupied a different station, you insist on actually arguing something clearly played for laughs to be something else, rather than just admit your comparison doesn't work.
Don't waste my time with this bullshit.
Now you are completely mischaracterising that event to support your flimsy argument. Why do you bother with this?
Inconsistency on my behalf isn't the issue here.
The issue is your lack of understanding compounded by willful ignorance.
You are taking entirely different situations and comparing them on the most superficial basis, while conveniently ignoring the fundamental differences I have outlined in my response.
In not one of your examples do you have a situation involving a third party.
In not one of those examples - old as some of them are - do you have any lines of authority being crossed or challenged.
What Shin allows and tolerates within the unit is up to him. Like I said, that's family business.
But just as you won't tolerate certain behaviours from your friends in public as you do in private, Shin is not one who will - or should -tolerate insubordination, especially not in front of a third party.
Na Ki made an unauthorised deal with and in front a third party.
Na Ki talked back to his general, in front of a third party.
Na Ki silenced his general, in front of a third party.
Na Ki gave a half-assed apology with his back turned, in front of a third party.
Are you starting to feel silly yet for trying to argue those ridiculous examples you brought up come even close?
I am a lawyer.
If you want to go by text book definitions, strap in.
Na Ki was defiant the moment he talked back.
Yes, it is.
How are you going to presume to quote the dictionary to me and then argue Na Ki wasn't insubordinate because he was ignoring an order rather than refusing it. That is stupid.
1) "Quit screwing around" is very clear in its meaning: desist in what you are doing, i.e. STOP.
2) Disrespect IS insubordination, and the fact you that don't realise that explains so much
You seem to forget the Na Ki clan was attacked upon their departure from the Kan Ki Army, and Kan Ki didn't do anything to stop that.
I don't know why you have this particular reading of Na Ki, nor do I particularly care, but nothing you've said is even suggestive of evidence Na Ki would pull what he did just now with Kan Ki. Na Ki is a shrewd individual, he knows not to push the boundaries. What you're suggesting is ridiculous.
Yes, comparative to his egregious behaviour in front of the Saki, sending out a few scouts without permission is trivial by comparison, since we do not know for a fact Kan Ki's orders were contradicted.
Dress it up as much as you'd like, you're grasping at straws.
I'm not going to decipher all this nonsense.
From what I can gather:
Ga Ro - already addressed
Kyou Kai - Kan Ki was already in violation of laws of war, there's a reason they got off scott free
Mou Bu could've very well been punished for Bayou.
That Shin has been defiant and insubordinate in the past is completely irrelevant to whether he should accept it from Na Ki. Especially under present circumstances.
Kan Ki isn't there, they are unable to locate him or even verify whether he is alive.
Shin is the ranking superior officer. EVERYTHING is his call to make right now because he was not given explicit orders by Kan Ki regarding the siege of Gian or the Saki clan.
Shin is in no danger of being accused of insubordination. As the ranking Qin officer, he has full authority to command all those ranked below him - that includes the Saki clan so long as they remain affiliated with Qin.
As established, the Saki have already refused his order, he is well within his rights to deal with them.
It doesn't matter whether Na Ki can actually deliver on any deals he agrees to.
Presuming to even speak on behalf of his general in such dealings without prior authorisation or permission is the issue.
That's what you're not getting it.
It is not Na Ki's place to make deals for his general. It's not his place to speak for his general. The way he went about doing both is what's cause for reprimand.
Insubordination very much happened here, and if you think your reasoning for why Na Ki's apology is enough should fly, you must not be familiar with military institutions.
It doesn't matter how tough a son of a bitch you are. When you fuck up, you will know it, and you will damn sure acknowledge it.
There is so much stupid in this alone, but the fact you follow up with an example of the aftermath of Kan Ki violating the laws of war and slaughtering civilians just say it all.
I'm wasting my time.
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Good.
The problem is that you don't seem to recognise that what Na Ki is directly contradicting the chain of command in the latest chapter.
I have no idea what this means.
You keep bumping into this thing and it's wild to me that you don't get the difference.
Not only are you using an example from years ago, when Shin was younger and occupied a different station, you insist on actually arguing something clearly played for laughs to be something rather than just admit your comparison doesn't work.
Don't waste my time with this bullshit.
Now you are completely mischaracterising that event to support your flimsy argument. Why do you bother with this?
Inconsistency on my behalf isn't the issue here.
The issue is your lack of understanding compounded by willful ignorance.
You are taking entirely different situations and comparing them on the most superficial basis, while conveniently ignoring the fundamental differences I have outlined in my response.
In not one of your examples do you have a situation involving a third party.
In not one of those examples - old as some of there are - do you have any lines of authority being crossed or challenged.
What Shin allows and tolerates within the unit is up to him. Like I said, that's family business.
But just as you won't tolerate certain behaviours from your friends in public as you do in private, Shin is not one who will - or should -tolerate insubordination, especially not in front of a third party.
Na Ki made an unauthorised deal with and in front a third party.
Na Ki talked back to his general, in front of a third party.
Na Ki silenced his general, in front of a third party.
Na Ki gave a half-assed apology with his back turned, in front of a third party.
Are you starting to feel silly yet for trying to argue those ridiculous examples you brought up come even close?
I am a lawyer.
If you want to go by text book definitions, strap in.
Na Ki was defiant the moment he talked back.
Yes, it is.
How are you going to presume to quote the dictionary to me and then argue Na Ki wasn't insubordinate because he was ignoring an order rather than refusing it. That is stupid.
1) "Quit screwing around" is very clear in its meaning: desist in what you are doing, i.e. STOP.
2) Disrespect IS insubordination, and the fact you that don't realise that explains so much
You seem to forget the Na Ki clan was attacked upon their departure from the Kan Ki Army, and Kan Ki didn't do anything to stop that.
I don't know why you have this particular reading of Na Ki, nor do I particularly care, but nothing you've said is even suggestive of evidence Na Ki would pull what he did just now with Kan Ki. Na Ki is a shrewd individual, he knows not to push the boundaries. What you're suggesting is ridiculous.
Yes, comparative to his egregious behaviour in front of the Saki, sending out a few scouts with permission is trivial by comparison, especially since we do not know for a fact Kan Ki's orders were contradicted.
Dress it up as much as you'd like, you're grasping at straws.
I'm not going to decipher all this nonsense.
From what I can gather:
Ga Ro - already addressed
Kyou Kai - Kan Ki was already in violation of laws of war, there's a reason they got off scott free
Mou Bu could've very been punished for Bayou.
That Shin has been defiant and insubordinate in the past is completely irrelevant to whether he should accept it from Na Ki. Especially under present circumstances.
Kan Ki isn't there, they are unable to locate him or even verify whether is alive.
Shin is the ranking superior officer. EVERYTHING is his call to make right now because he was not given explicit orders by Kan Ki regarding the siege of Gian or the Saki clan.
Shin is in no danger of being accused of insubordination. As the ranking Qin officer, he has full authority to command all those ranked below him - that includes the Saki clan so long as they remain affiliated with Qin.
As established, the Saki have already refused his orders, he is well within his rights to deal with them.
It doesn't matter whether Na Ki can actually deliver on any deals he agrees to.
Presuming to even speak on behalf his general in such dealings without prior authorisation or permission is the issue.
That's what you're not getting it.
It is not Na Ki's place to make deals for his general. It's not his place to speak for his general. The way he went about doing both is what's cause for reprimand.
Insubordination very much happened here, and if you think your reasoning for why Na Ki's apology is enough, you must not be familiar with military institutions.
It doesn't matter how tough a son of a bitch you are. When you fuck up, you will know it, and you will damn sure acknowledge it.
There is so much stupid in this alone, but the fact you follow up with an example of the aftermath of Kan Ki violating the laws of war and slaughtering civilians just say it all.
I'm wasting my time.
The problem is that you don't seem to recognise that what Na Ki is directly contradicting the chain of command in the latest chapter.
I have no idea what this means.
You keep bumping into this thing and it's wild to me that you don't get the difference.
Not only are you using an example from years ago, when Shin was younger and occupied a different station, you insist on actually arguing something clearly played for laughs to be something rather than just admit your comparison doesn't work.
Don't waste my time with this bullshit.
Now you are completely mischaracterising that event to support your flimsy argument. Why do you bother with this?
Inconsistency on my behalf isn't the issue here.
The issue is your lack of understanding compounded by willful ignorance.
You are taking entirely different situations and comparing them on the most superficial basis, while conveniently ignoring the fundamental differences I have outlined in my response.
In not one of your examples do you have a situation involving a third party.
In not one of those examples - old as some of there are - do you have any lines of authority being crossed or challenged.
What Shin allows and tolerates within the unit is up to him. Like I said, that's family business.
But just as you won't tolerate certain behaviours from your friends in public as you do in private, Shin is not one who will - or should -tolerate insubordination, especially not in front of a third party.
Na Ki made an unauthorised deal with and in front a third party.
Na Ki talked back to his general, in front of a third party.
Na Ki silenced his general, in front of a third party.
Na Ki gave a half-assed apology with his back turned, in front of a third party.
Are you starting to feel silly yet for trying to argue those ridiculous examples you brought up come even close?
I am a lawyer.
If you want to go by text book definitions, strap in.
Na Ki was defiant the moment he talked back.
Yes, it is.
How are you going to presume to quote the dictionary to me and then argue Na Ki wasn't insubordinate because he was ignoring an order rather than refusing it. That is stupid.
1) "Quit screwing around" is very clear in its meaning: desist in what you are doing, i.e. STOP.
2) Disrespect IS insubordination, and the fact you that don't realise that explains so much
You seem to forget the Na Ki clan was attacked upon their departure from the Kan Ki Army, and Kan Ki didn't do anything to stop that.
I don't know why you have this particular reading of Na Ki, nor do I particularly care, but nothing you've said is even suggestive of evidence Na Ki would pull what he did just now with Kan Ki. Na Ki is a shrewd individual, he knows not to push the boundaries. What you're suggesting is ridiculous.
Yes, comparative to his egregious behaviour in front of the Saki, sending out a few scouts with permission is trivial by comparison, especially since we do not know for a fact Kan Ki's orders were contradicted.
Dress it up as much as you'd like, you're grasping at straws.
I'm not going to decipher all this nonsense.
From what I can gather:
Ga Ro - already addressed
Kyou Kai - Kan Ki was already in violation of laws of war, there's a reason they got off scott free
Mou Bu could've very been punished for Bayou.
That Shin has been defiant and insubordinate in the past is completely irrelevant to whether he should accept it from Na Ki. Especially under present circumstances.
Kan Ki isn't there, they are unable to locate him or even verify whether is alive.
Shin is the ranking superior officer. EVERYTHING is his call to make right now because he was not given explicit orders by Kan Ki regarding the siege of Gian or the Saki clan.
Shin is in no danger of being accused of insubordination. As the ranking Qin officer, he has full authority to command all those ranked below him - that includes the Saki clan so long as they remain affiliated with Qin.
As established, the Saki have already refused his orders, he is well within his rights to deal with them.
It doesn't matter whether Na Ki can actually deliver on any deals he agrees to.
Presuming to even speak on behalf his general in such dealings without prior authorisation or permission is the issue.
That's what you're not getting it.
It is not Na Ki's place to make deals for his general. It's not his place to speak for his general. The way he went about doing both is what's cause for reprimand.
Insubordination very much happened here, and if you think your reasoning for why Na Ki's apology is enough, you must not be familiar with military institutions.
It doesn't matter how tough a son of a bitch you are. When you fuck up, you will know it, and you will damn sure acknowledge it.
There is so much stupid in this alone, but the fact you follow up with an example of the aftermath of Kan Ki violating the laws of war and slaughtering civilians just say it all.
I'm wasting my time.
If you look at the classic way then you are right but this is Shin
Shin is brainless utter idiot without Ten and Kyokai he wouldnt be a general but just unit commander
IF Naki leads 10k against Shins 10K without Ten and Kyokai
Naki would wipe the floor with Shin
Shin is just like Zenou just a brute so Naki disrespecting him is fine in my point of view xDDD
Shin is brainless utter idiot without Ten and Kyokai he wouldnt be a general but just unit commander
IF Naki leads 10k against Shins 10K without Ten and Kyokai
Naki would wipe the floor with Shin
Shin is just like Zenou just a brute so Naki disrespecting him is fine in my point of view xDDD
I don't know how much you're joking, but this isn't an uncommon sentiment, which I find baffling.
Shin was coming out with clever ploys and tactics in the past to compete with Ou Hon and we've had numerous examples now of Shin independently surveying the battlefield, reading it correctly and make adjustments accordingly - in instances where no one else could.
Shin is ignorant, but he's not stupid, least of all on the subject of warfare.
Na Ki is a 1K Commander with the skillset of a 5K Commander. He'll easily become one of Shin's generals if he sticks around, but he is no match for Shin under any circumstance with equal numbers. Shin would crush him with far small numbers even. Don't forget, the Hi Shin Unit was a special unit that routinely crushed much bigger enemies; as he is now, Shin could lead a unit of 300 men and do devastating damage to a unit of thousands.
We're past the point of having cause to doubt Shin's ability to read a battlefield and take action. It is my hope, we see more independent action from Shin, Kyou Kai and Ka Ryo Ten. They're definitely due for a round of promotions and they've sustained so many losses, they will be needing fresh troops soon. I'd love to see the Hi Shin Army grow to 30,000 strong, with Ten commanding the infantry heavy 10K army in the centre and Kyou Kai and Shin each commanding 10K cavalry heavy armies on the wings.
Shin was coming out with clever ploys and tactics in the past to compete with Ou Hon and we've had numerous examples now of Shin independently surveying the battlefield, reading it correctly and make adjustments accordingly - in instances where no one else could.
Shin is ignorant, but he's not stupid, least of all on the subject of warfare.
Na Ki is a 1K Commander with the skillset of a 5K Commander. He'll easily become one of Shin's generals if he sticks around, but he is no match for Shin under any circumstance with equal numbers. Shin would crush him with far small numbers even. Don't forget, the Hi Shin Unit was a special unit that routinely crushed much bigger enemies; as he is now, Shin could lead a unit of 300 men and do devastating damage to a unit of thousands.
We're past the point of having cause to doubt Shin's ability to read a battlefield and take action. It is my hope, we see more independent action from Shin, Kyou Kai and Ka Ryo Ten. They're definitely due for a round of promotions and they've sustained so many losses, they will be needing fresh troops soon. I'd love to see the Hi Shin Army grow to 30,000 strong, with Ten commanding the infantry heavy 10K army in the centre and Kyou Kai and Shin each commanding 10K cavalry heavy armies on the wings.
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No, dude, I'm not going to trust you. Cut this shit out already. 
Kyou Kai left a damn near decade ago, bruh. Where is your mind at? Shin is 26, he's a general now. Ri Boku just compared his maneuvers at Gian to Great General Duke Hyou. Get with the program.
Shin would crush Na Ki's 1K unit with 300 ordinary troops, never mind elites.
Kyou Kai left a damn near decade ago, bruh. Where is your mind at? Shin is 26, he's a general now. Ri Boku just compared his maneuvers at Gian to Great General Duke Hyou. Get with the program.
Shin would crush Na Ki's 1K unit with 300 ordinary troops, never mind elites.
