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- Thread starter Guan Yu
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@SakazOuki @Monet you guys have read some historical articles so quote me if i have missed anything here.
Just for the curiosity and enjoyment, you all should once read about HakuKi and than you will realize he's one the greatest warrior/commander of all time, not just for Qin or China but in worldwide. The way he dealt with multiple states at single time alone and than dealt damage on every state except Qi is simply marvelous.
Ouki or Riboku or Renpa or GakuKi or SHK or anyone other than Ousen can't even match or reach near his level of warfare achievements. Ousen did something on totally different level and made a name for himself and that is via crushing most of the chinese states and unifying them in China. Now even he's in totally different league as well and not in the same as Riboku or Renpa or Ouki.
And than should also consider others in first gen of Q6. Shibasaku is also a great monster amongst same generation generals.
Zhao 3s are no doubt fabulous and were able to deal with Qin 6 in far better way than other states but Z3 has taken losses as well along with some victories. Z3 had never been successful outside Zhao's territory while they won/lost with having home advantages all the time. But Q6 had been securing themselves and devouring others land (Zhao and other states) all at the same time and had been successful as well so they as a group will always be considered best and top of the others everytime. Z3 are making strategies for only Q6 (Zhao had form alliance with other states to attack Qin as well a few times) while Q6 are making strategies for Z3, Wei7, Han, Yan and Chu and getting successful everywhere so you can understand the difference between them and others quite clearly.
Also don't forget Shibasaku alone detached two regions of Chu (Shu and Ba) and merged them in Qin while some time later HakuKi alone destroyed capital region and few other castles of Chu as well. Than you have OuKotsu pushing back Renpa with two year stalemate and capturing Shandan from Zhao. Later HakuKi defeating Zhao-wei-Han alliance. Later Koshou defeating Zhao-Wei alliance. Than some time later OuKotsu defeats Chu-zhao-wei alliance and captured two castles while forcing them back etc etc.... these are just few major events while a lot interesting battles weren't even mentioned. Q6 battle achievements list is just way too big. Though some will point for losses and stretch them in exaggerated way like Koshou defeated at the hands of ChouSha but these 2-3 incidents can't affect the achievements of Q6 and how they terrified the whole china in any way.
Ouki or Riboku or Renpa or GakuKi or SHK or anyone other than Ousen can't even match or reach near his level of warfare achievements. Ousen did something on totally different level and made a name for himself and that is via crushing most of the chinese states and unifying them in China. Now even he's in totally different league as well and not in the same as Riboku or Renpa or Ouki.
And than should also consider others in first gen of Q6. Shibasaku is also a great monster amongst same generation generals.
Zhao 3s are no doubt fabulous and were able to deal with Qin 6 in far better way than other states but Z3 has taken losses as well along with some victories. Z3 had never been successful outside Zhao's territory while they won/lost with having home advantages all the time. But Q6 had been securing themselves and devouring others land (Zhao and other states) all at the same time and had been successful as well so they as a group will always be considered best and top of the others everytime. Z3 are making strategies for only Q6 (Zhao had form alliance with other states to attack Qin as well a few times) while Q6 are making strategies for Z3, Wei7, Han, Yan and Chu and getting successful everywhere so you can understand the difference between them and others quite clearly.
Also don't forget Shibasaku alone detached two regions of Chu (Shu and Ba) and merged them in Qin while some time later HakuKi alone destroyed capital region and few other castles of Chu as well. Than you have OuKotsu pushing back Renpa with two year stalemate and capturing Shandan from Zhao. Later HakuKi defeating Zhao-wei-Han alliance. Later Koshou defeating Zhao-Wei alliance. Than some time later OuKotsu defeats Chu-zhao-wei alliance and captured two castles while forcing them back etc etc.... these are just few major events while a lot interesting battles weren't even mentioned. Q6 battle achievements list is just way too big. Though some will point for losses and stretch them in exaggerated way like Koshou defeated at the hands of ChouSha but these 2-3 incidents can't affect the achievements of Q6 and how they terrified the whole china in any way.
i really enjoyed reading this post
Hakuki's historical feats are nuts and he's debatably the goat if going by history.
But it appears that some of the feats that Bai Qi accomplished in history didn't happen. So, tell they are confirmed to happen in the manga, could they really be used to debate? Bai Qi captured Chu capital, seems like it didn't happen in Kingdom because Chu and Qin hardly fought during the era Hakuki was active.
I am very interested in seeing the past Qin 6 in flashbacks, and if we learn anything else about them, I'll be happy to reevaluate their overall level compared to the Zhao Heavens
But it appears that some of the feats that Bai Qi accomplished in history didn't happen. So, tell they are confirmed to happen in the manga, could they really be used to debate? Bai Qi captured Chu capital, seems like it didn't happen in Kingdom because Chu and Qin hardly fought during the era Hakuki was active.
I am very interested in seeing the past Qin 6 in flashbacks, and if we learn anything else about them, I'll be happy to reevaluate their overall level compared to the Zhao Heavens
What do you mean exaggerate? How does one even exaggerate this feat? Chousha straight up killed and defeated Koshou, where is the exaggeration? You say it is us exaggerating the achievements of the Qin 6 and downplaying the Zhao 3, then you turn around and say Ousen defeated Riboku when Riboku literally had Ousen’s starving army trapped inside of a city with no food.
You say we exaggerate the achievements of the Zhao 3, yet all I see from you guys is using historical feats to invalidate what has been shown to us in the manga and claiming that Hakuki > Riboku because Bai Qi > Li Mu (which historians don’t even agree on anyway).
The manga: “Riboku is the strongest fucking General ever and it’s not even close”
You: “WeLl AcKsHuAlLy HiStOrIcAlLy SpEaKiNg-“
And then you do the opposite when it comes to examining examining historical feats.
History: Chousha defeats and kills Koshou straight up
You: “How exaggerative, Zhaogang brings this up as if it objectively proves Chousha > Koshou or something…”
Nah. Zhaogang isn’t exaggerating anything. It’s like others have said,
Riboku > the average great Heaven ~ the strongest Qin 6 > the weakest Qin 6.
Now as for manga Hakuki-> Hara actually severely downplayed Hakuki at Chouhei. Manga Hakuki and Manga Ouki got stalled out by Manga Renpa for two years straight up but historically this didn’t happen.
Historically Renpa and Ouki fought for two years, and Hakuki wasn’t given command until after Renpa was removed, at which point he won the battle. So historically Bai Qi never got stalled out by Lian Po while in the manga Renpa stopped Hakuki and Ouki both dead in their tracks.
I love Hakuki, I think he is fucking awesome but your bias towards Bai Qi, who yes legit is one of the most successful generals of all time, is causing you to grossly overrate Manga Hakuki who was directly stated to be weaker than Riboku.
Stats even seem to reinforce the Zhaogang’s case. Only four characters in the history of this manga ever received 100s in a stat category, two of them are Great Heavens. On top of that, the character with the highest stat total of all time (Renpa) is also a Great Heaven.
Hara thoroughly, thoroughly respects the Zhao 3, and it is not Zhaogang that is in denial right now…
You say we exaggerate the achievements of the Zhao 3, yet all I see from you guys is using historical feats to invalidate what has been shown to us in the manga and claiming that Hakuki > Riboku because Bai Qi > Li Mu (which historians don’t even agree on anyway).
The manga: “Riboku is the strongest fucking General ever and it’s not even close”
You: “WeLl AcKsHuAlLy HiStOrIcAlLy SpEaKiNg-“
And then you do the opposite when it comes to examining examining historical feats.
History: Chousha defeats and kills Koshou straight up
You: “How exaggerative, Zhaogang brings this up as if it objectively proves Chousha > Koshou or something…”
Nah. Zhaogang isn’t exaggerating anything. It’s like others have said,
Riboku > the average great Heaven ~ the strongest Qin 6 > the weakest Qin 6.
Now as for manga Hakuki-> Hara actually severely downplayed Hakuki at Chouhei. Manga Hakuki and Manga Ouki got stalled out by Manga Renpa for two years straight up but historically this didn’t happen.
Historically Renpa and Ouki fought for two years, and Hakuki wasn’t given command until after Renpa was removed, at which point he won the battle. So historically Bai Qi never got stalled out by Lian Po while in the manga Renpa stopped Hakuki and Ouki both dead in their tracks.
I love Hakuki, I think he is fucking awesome but your bias towards Bai Qi, who yes legit is one of the most successful generals of all time, is causing you to grossly overrate Manga Hakuki who was directly stated to be weaker than Riboku.
Stats even seem to reinforce the Zhaogang’s case. Only four characters in the history of this manga ever received 100s in a stat category, two of them are Great Heavens. On top of that, the character with the highest stat total of all time (Renpa) is also a Great Heaven.
Hara thoroughly, thoroughly respects the Zhao 3, and it is not Zhaogang that is in denial right now…
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Q6 should have gotten more screen time and attention from Hara
Zhao keeps producing generals but Qin doesn't even get generals that should logically exists
Where are the Q6 vassals?
Oh here is lord of big castle on Zhao border Shiba Taku who was Shiba Saku's left hand
Here is Tou's new general Ou Toutsu (Ou Koutsu's youngest son)
How hard could it be?
Zhao keeps producing generals but Qin doesn't even get generals that should logically exists
Where are the Q6 vassals?
Oh here is lord of big castle on Zhao border Shiba Taku who was Shiba Saku's left hand
Here is Tou's new general Ou Toutsu (Ou Koutsu's youngest son)
How hard could it be?
Nah I wouldn’t go that far. Oukotsu is probably neck and neck with Kanmei in strength. The point of that scene was Kanmei > Oukotsu, not that Oukotsu was weak.
Oukotsu vs Kochou for example I still definitely favor Oukotsu.
But Hara isn’t drawing a 3GH getting one shot (aside from Gekishin who Hara inexplicably disrespected like a mofo lol)
Oukotsu vs Kochou for example I still definitely favor Oukotsu.
But Hara isn’t drawing a 3GH getting one shot (aside from Gekishin who Hara inexplicably disrespected like a mofo lol)
There was no need for him to get one shot lmao. Hara could've had young Kanmei extreme extreme diff Oukotsu the physically strongest of the Qin 6 and his Top Top Tier status would've been as great while sorta respecting the Qin 6 but he had Kanmei one shot Oukotsu and then made him look like a coward by running away.
You remember how Ouki had to explicitly forbid his vassals from following him into death? And how 8/10 of RSJ's vassals followed him into death? That's probably what happened.
Or they were like the Duke and didn't bother with strong subordinates lol
What's worse is that Moubu later went "All your previous opponents were weak"
I'm honestly astounded that Hara disrespected a Qin 6 and member of the Ou Family like that.
I'm sure Kanmei got extremely lucky.... But still
Or they were like the Duke and didn't bother with strong subordinates lol
What's worse is that Moubu later went "All your previous opponents were weak"
I'm honestly astounded that Hara disrespected a Qin 6 and member of the Ou Family like that.
I'm sure Kanmei got extremely lucky.... But still
I still think Gekishin’s treatment was way worse lol. Oukotsu got big hype, his brute strength was the greatest among the Qin 6, Kanmei just got bigger hype.
Gekishin looked like a straight up clown in hindsight to me. It’s hard to really argue he has impressive feats at all, at least Oukotsu’s feats are still a mystery.
Gekishin looked like a straight up clown in hindsight to me. It’s hard to really argue he has impressive feats at all, at least Oukotsu’s feats are still a mystery.