Both actually. This is a complexe phenomenon. In this case, the dismophism can be explained by the social behavior of animals (including human) although I might need to find some researches on the subject, I'm not sure of what I'm stating here.
Orangutans are solitary animals and have fairly extreme sexual dimorphism
There are also animals like elephants where their structure is female-dominated
But well just to make sure: are you suggesting gorillas and chimpanzees systemically oppress their females to the point of them being physically weaker and smaller?
But well just to make sure: are you suggesting gorillas and chimpanzees systemically oppress their females to the point of them being physically weaker and smaller?
No, I'm not suggesting that gorillas and chimpanzees systematically oppress their female, I'm only trying to show a reason why it could have happened the way it happened in human.
I'm only trying to see if the oppressive power structure that is patriarchy had an effect on the biological evolution of women. I'm not judging social selection over millenia.
I understand that people on the conservative and confusionnist side don't get that, but attacking a political ally in front of the opposition in leftism is considered as a mistake. Not because we are the political side that don't want critics on ourselves (we are actually the side that criticized itself the most, you should see a battle between anarchist, troskysts, lenninist and reformists..) but because we have less power in society. Therefore attacking ourselves when we need to be united is destroying our fight.
Yup I agree, other species can have a social behaviors that impact their biology.
People on the "same side " can have different opinions and viewpoints, otherwise you just have a bland sort and an Echo Chamber. Without differences, it becomes stagnant, Aren't you a proponent of diversity, well that includes diversity of thought no?
Its not really about making a difference rather than making a point.
No, I'm not suggesting that gorillas and chimpanzees systematically oppress their female, I'm only trying to show a reason why it could have happened the way it happened in human.
I'm only trying to see if the oppressive power structure that is patriarchy had an effect on the biological evolution of women. I'm not judging social selection over millenia.
Ye I doubt it. Considering its the same for all great apes and most other bigger primate species, its infinitely more likely that the biological differences caused the oppression imho
Of course (in the left, I don't care about the other oppressive side). That's what I explained. But you need to understand that I'm not talking about diversity of opinion here, I'm talking about unity in front of oppression.
In that instance, the left - that can be divided - needs to create a block to fight the oppression correctly, even if they are divided. Simply because without that, we won't have enough power. Bigotry and capitalism are still dominating society.
That's why I asked Toby to calm the hostility and stop equating me with some far rightist like yourself. Simply because that's a political error.
Ye I doubt it. Considering its the same for all great apes and most other bigger primate species, its infinitely more likely that the biological differences caused the oppression imho
Indeed, that's what I'm explained earlier mate. In the left there are A LOT of political movements.
Of course (in the left, I don't care about the other oppressive side). That's what I explained. But you need to understand that I'm not talking about diversity of opinion here, I'm talking about unity in front of oppression.
In that instance, the left - that can be divided - needs to create a block to fight the oppression correctly, even if they are divided. Simply because without that, we won't have enough power. Bigotry and capitalism are still dominating society.
That's why I asked Toby to calm the hostility and stop equating me with some far rightist like yourself. Simply because that's a political error.
I wouldn't be so sure mate
I'll try to find some article on the subject later.
"However, females likely increased in stature relative to males in order to successfully deliver large-brained neonates through a bipedally-adapted pelvis."
I'm not a specialist of the subject but I think we have found evidences of women having the same body structure as men in the pre-neolothic era. Although you might be right, I don't think its because of malnourishment but rather because of the system and structure of power that pushed men to selectively choose women with less and less hight. (but again, I'm not a specialist on the subject, this might be a big error I'm making)
Basically, men preferred smaller women ? And women preferred taller men ? Did they all invent patriarchy ?
I'll try to find some ressources in french for you to understand the problem, because (at least in France) there is really a problem with psychoanalysis.
Non binarity is indeed a difficult subject to understand when we are not familiar with it, it took me a few years to graps it. I suggest you watch this video of Anthony Padilla where he speaks with non binary people. If that's not enough, tell me, I might need to add something more indeed, I really didn't spend to much time on the subject. So there is very few content in the library about the subject.
I watched it. One of the beliefs against non-binarity is the representation that there is a girl and boy in every one of us. That we're all balancing more toward one than the other. And that you can't exactly sit your ass in the middle of the line. What would you say about that ? Would you simply say "okay true but you can sit on the line" ?
But you do agree with the points made tho ? I mean, you understand the purpose of those videos (even if you don't like video essay) ?
I can somewhat agree sometimes. Not on every cases of examples used though. It's not about videos "essays" but about how some of the videos are made haha.
I once got this girl who told me "watch this video that made me a feminist". And I'm like, yeh but it's one video with a cringe-worthy edit and melodramatic song with a black-and-white image... I'd rather get something "different".
Also her video had a lot of stuff that "are said to women by society" as if nothing was said to dudes...
I'm not a specialist of the subject but I think we have found evidences of women having the same body structure as men in the pre-neolothic era. Although you might be right, I don't think its because of malnourishment but rather because of the system and structure of power that pushed men to selectively choose women with less and less hight. (but again, I'm not a specialist on the subject, this might be a big error I'm making)
my fluffy conejo enjoyer, are you aware of the fact that there are matriarchal, matrilinear and matrilocal societies across the globe who do NOT have a tradition of oppressing women? Many animals have sexual dimorphism, in insects
I'm only trying to see if the oppressive power structure that is patriarchy had an effect on the biological evolution of women. I'm not judging social selection over millenia.
"However, females likely increased in stature relative to males in order to successfully deliver large-brained neonates through a bipedally-adapted pelvis."
So first thing first : Its Evolutionnary psychology. So I need to put a red flag here and ask for caution.
Now.. I've made a little bit of research to understand a little more about the subject and the studies of those author and they seems to contradict the basic evolutionnary psychology prime premisses.. which is actually a good thing.
In reality it seems like their work are tending to critic the premisses of their own field (which is again a good things) about the myth of the universal waste hips ratio attraction and indicate that the social and environmental context is actually prevalent is the development of women's bodies.
In other words, the distribution of ressources affected their body.
We can also see here : https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aao3893 That women from the early neolithic through the bronze age to the iron age may have been tanking a huge agricultural load of work compared their male counterparts. Women were actual athletes back in the day. The question is .. how did this changed ?
Their is no definitive consensus answer on the subject (at least I've not seen much) but you can definitely understand how the distribution of ressources and redistribution of the work force may have played a role here. And by redistribution I'm questionning who had the ressources and who distributed the work forces. Those two power were definitely not given to women in the majority of the world.
Hence why I talk about patriarchy (but we could also talk about the prehistoric stages of capitalism)
Patriarchy is not something that was really invented. Its more of a product of the nature of early neolithic societies and what some might have seen as a needs to secure the power to men instead of women.
I believe that gender "being a boy" or "being a girl" is a social construction and a spectre. So I believe that its completely possible to be non binary. Also, no binary doesn't necessaraly mean being "in the middle". In can also be in all places of the spectres.
I do understand those who want to identify as such but in absolute, I believe that gender is just a social construct that we will get rid of in a few centuries. I believe that "being a boy" and "being a girl" are gender ideals and that actually no one is truly a boy or a girl and that everyone has attributes of both side. For example, one of my biggest traits of personnality as an individual is that I will cry extremely easilly in front of things I'm empathic about and if no one had stopped me when I was young, I would definitely wear pantyhose right now and maybe heels right now. Those things are just natural for me and I do not feel ashamed to say that.
Now, its also important to understand that I was raised and feel currently like a man, so this is my identity. It COULD change in the future, but I need to understand the nature of my education which was like most men, patriarcal.
I once got this girl who told me "watch this video that made me a feminist". And I'm like, yeh but it's one video with a cringe-worthy edit and melodramatic song with a black-and-white image... I'd rather get something "different".
What you say is true but we need to understand that we should not equate the two. What is "said" to women by society is a lot more oppressive than what is said to men.
my fluffy conejo enjoyer, are you aware of the fact that there are matriarchal, matrilinear and matrilocal societies across the globe who do NOT have a tradition of oppressing women? Many animals have sexual dimorphism, in insects
Actually I did and my researchs are leading me to believe that it is in fact the case and that patriarchy did play a role in the biological change in women's body. Through distribution of ressources and labor mainly.
I don’t understand why people want to move from the west to Israel.
I was talking to a friend the other day. She told me she was planning to move to Israel. Thing is tho, she’s convert like me. My friend is a part of the conservative denomination, which while being more traditional than Reform Judaism, their conversions still aren’t seen as valid by the orthodoxy.
Meaning that while she could get Israeli citizenship under law of return, she wouldn’t be classified as Jewish in israel unless she got an Orthodox conversion.
I think she told me she felt a connection to israel or something. And I know she has some friends there.
But I just find it so odd that people would move to a country that doesn’t even respect who they are.
Post automatically merged:
My take on it is that life in America is far better than life in Israel.
Israel has been perpetually at war with its neighbors for nearly a century. The idea that Jews are somehow safe there is insane. October 7th proved that.
Yeah there’s antisemitism in America. But also, almost every synagogue I’ve been to has had police protection, so I’ve never felt unsafe practicing my religion.
From what I’ve read israel seems objectively worse than the west. imagine being forced to serve in the military when you are only a teenager. That’s not something I’d want for my kids or grandkids.
I guess it comes from this idea that living in Israel is a mitzvah and so is helping the Zionist project. But that’s just not my take on it.
I think if G-d wanted Jews to return to Israel, then he’d send the Messiah.
reality it seems like their work are tending to critic the premisses of their own field (which is again a good things) about the myth of the universal waste hips ratio attraction and indicate that the social and environmental context is actually prevalent is the development of women's bodies.
I don’t understand why people want to move from the west to Israel.
I was talking to a friend the other day. She told me she was planning to move to Israel. Thing is tho, she’s convert like me. My friend is a part of the conservative denomination, which while being more traditional than Reform Judaism, their conversions still aren’t seen as valid by the orthodoxy.
Meaning that while she could get Israeli citizenship under law of return, she wouldn’t be classified as Jewish in israel unless she got an Orthodox conversion.
I think she told me she felt a connection to israel or something. And I know she has some friends there.
But I just find it so odd that people would move to a country that doesn’t even respect who they are.
My take on it is that life in America is far better than life in Israel.
Israel has been perpetually at war with its neighbors for nearly a century. The idea that Jews are somehow safe there is insane. October 7th proved that.
Yeah there’s antisemitism in America. But also, almost every synagogue I’ve been to has had police protection, so I’ve never felt unsafe practicing my religion.
From what I’ve read israel seems objectively worse than the west. imagine being forced to serve in the military when you are only a teenager. That’s not something I’d want for my kids or grandkids.
What Israelian and people going to Israel don't realize, is that the crypto-fascist gov that reign suprem in Israel right now, is not only a danger to Palestinians, but ALSO to Israelian. Fascism is no good for anyone.
By environmental and social context I indicate the ressources that are accessible to those population. A problem of distribution of ressources (which is not mentionned in the paper, I'm drawing this conclusion) is correlated to problems with health and malnourrishment in any society, this is not a scoop.
In other words, the distribution of ressources affect women's body (but any kind of body without wealth in fact, that just an evidence), but what is interesting here is that those studies actually goes against the myth that men have a natural preference for women with an "hollywoodian" body. In reality, this preference is conditionned by a lot of factors. Two of which are health and nourrishment here.
What Israelian and people going to Israel don't realize, is that the crypto-fascist gov that reign suprem in Israel right now, is not only a danger to Palestinians, but ALSO to Israelian. Fascism is no good for anyone.
By environmental and social context I indicate the ressources that are accessible to those population. A problem of distribution of ressources (which is not mentionned in the paper, I'm drawing this conclusion) is correlated to problems with health and malnourrishment in any society, this is not a scoop.
In other words, the distribution of ressources affect women's body (but any kind of body without wealth in fact, that just an evidence), but what is interesting here is that those studies actually goes against the myth that men have a natural preference for women with an "hollywoodian" body. In reality, this preference is conditionned by a lot of factors. Two of which are health and nourrishment here.
Most people arent wealthy, especially the further back you go. So the same must be true for males and females like going with your line of thiught here.
My point was humans generally being sexually dimorphic, and maybe i misunderstood you, but it sounded like you were saying that the dimorphism was solely a result of social factors
Most people arent wealthy, especially the further back you go. So the same must be true for males and females like going with your line of thiught here.
Indeed, most people aren't wealthy, but society is not the same that it was back in the day, we now have other constrains that shape both the way women body are shaped and the vision populations have of those bodies.
My point was humans generally being sexually dimorphic, and maybe i misunderstood you, but it sounded like you were saying that the dimorphism was solely a result of social factors
What I said is that it was both. It can be due to natural factors but also due to social ones. Its a mix of both.
But in the case of humans, while there was a dismorphism since the beginning of our evolution, that dismorphism between the mesolithic and our current era evolved mainly due to social and environmental factors such as - as explained - environmental pressures, the scarcity of ressources that could lead to health/hunger problems, the necessity for women to get into the field to do some labors works which increased their musculature at first or the fact that some men appropriated the ressources and women where left with only the caretaking roles and thus lost their strenght etc.
There are thousands of social factors that can explain that dismorphism. While there is a natural starting point, the rest is social.
Hm ? No. I've never said that. Its you guys who invented that lie to attack me
Rethink
When I report, its usually because there was something very problematic said. For example, denying a genocide, someone being transphobic, someone insulting someone else.. things that can actually put you in front of justice where I live. Also when I report, I don't want you banned, I just want your post to be modified to be civil, that's all. In fact I've not reported in a long time, I see that mods don't really care about those specific problematic behaviors.
Aside from being intolerant, denying the murder of thousands of people or going into fascist territory, you can say all the far right sh*t you want mate.
I don’t understand why people want to move from the west to Israel.
I was talking to a friend the other day. She told me she was planning to move to Israel. Thing is tho, she’s convert like me. My friend is a part of the conservative denomination, which while being more traditional than Reform Judaism, their conversions still aren’t seen as valid by the orthodoxy.
Meaning that while she could get Israeli citizenship under law of return, she wouldn’t be classified as Jewish in israel unless she got an Orthodox conversion.
I think she told me she felt a connection to israel or something. And I know she has some friends there.
But I just find it so odd that people would move to a country that doesn’t even respect who they are.
Post automatically merged:
My take on it is that life in America is far better than life in Israel.
Israel has been perpetually at war with its neighbors for nearly a century. The idea that Jews are somehow safe there is insane. October 7th proved that.
Yeah there’s antisemitism in America. But also, almost every synagogue I’ve been to has had police protection, so I’ve never felt unsafe practicing my religion.
From what I’ve read israel seems objectively worse than the west. imagine being forced to serve in the military when you are only a teenager. That’s not something I’d want for my kids or grandkids.
I guess it comes from this idea that living in Israel is a mitzvah and so is helping the Zionist project. But that’s just not my take on it.
I think if G-d wanted Jews to return to Israel, then he’d send the Messiah.
I believe most Jews who immigrate to Israel aren’t from the U.S. The U.S to this day houses like 40% of Jews in the world. People emigrating out of the U.S overall is not common
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
