By the way, there are many people your age who grew up poor, abused by parents, bullied, and other lots of bad stuff

How about ask them, what your country's culture is and what it means to them

Instead of projecting your own life experience and making it into an idol called culture
Stop making assumptions. I was bullied. Abused. Homeless. Poor. Furthermore, my actions and values should be dictated by my own experiences and are not contingent on other people's opinions. This is a moot point.

So how about forming a workers' organization that empowers the workers through organisation, to get higher wages?
Because historically it has never worked. It leads to surveillance states. It leads to collective destitution, demoralisation, and the decay of the social fabric.

And please don't hit me with the "true communism has never happened yet" talk. That's a cope.
 
Stop making assumptions. I was bullied. Abused. Homeless. Poor. Furthermore, my actions and values should be dictated by my own experiences and are not contingent on other people's opinions. This is a moot point.



Because historically it has never worked. It leads to surveillance states. It leads to collective destitution, demoralisation, and the decay of the social fabric.

And please don't hit me with the "true communism has never happened yet" talk. That's a cope.
Have unions resulted in that?
 
Alright. But when the only party offering what you want is one that advocates for open borders, then I'm going to side against it, simple as. We have different priorities.

In principle, I'm not even against unions. I am against full-blown communism though.
Well I disregard the parties, I just want strong unions, they have the actual power anyway, you have the actual power if you are part of a strong union, who cares what a politician wants, you guys vote and decide together
 
Well I disregard the parties, I just want strong unions, they have the actual power anyway, you have the actual power if you are part of a strong union, who cares what a politician wants, you guys vote and decide together
Because unfortunately, those are the vehicle towards regime change in democratic countries. I am not loyal to any party. I simply vote for the one that aligns closest with my current priorities.

I am not the type to just toe party lines, so I'd be a pretty bad unionist, I feel.
 
Because unfortunately, those are the vehicle towards regime change in democratic countries. I am not loyal to any party. I simply vote for the one that aligns closest with my current priorities.

I am not the type to just toe party lines, so I'd be a pretty bad unionist, I feel.
Well if you're just a regular member I think all you do is pretty much just pay some dues and vote on the decisions that are made, if you want to vote, right?
 
Well if you're just a regular member I think all you do is pretty much just pay some dues and vote on the decisions that are made, if you want to vote, right?
My late friend used to be in a union. They had him attending strikes and stuff.

I care a lot about personal freedom and agency, so I'd probably not last if I was forced to partake in things that don't really align with my interests or wants.

But each his or her own. It's not a major problem for me. If it works for you, go for it.
 
Regardless of what leads people to migrate, it is not the duty of the populace of their new lands to welcome them. I only care for what they can provide, not for what they've undergone, especially when my own homeland is being bled dry by politicians and failing social systems.
It can be easy to look away when our societies still benefit from historical exploitation.

I'm not asking specific individuals to save other, the problem happens when we elector promote people who prevent society as a whole to take care of the ones in need. Our societies have responsiblities. We destroyed, we exploited and profited from the global south. Now, because of what we did or still do, people are forced to come and migrate or to wage war. Aknowleging our responsibilities in the matter and acting ethically accordingly to this reality is absolutely necessary for us to help ourselves.

I can "respect" someone saying "it's not my problem" as long as they understand that we are part of a society that has ethical responsibilities. The problem comes when that attitude becomes a political program that perpetuates poverty and marginalization.

There is a sayin that everyone imperatively needs to understand: "I'm not free until everyone else is free"

Pushing ourselves aside from the problematic created by our own societies will not solve our problems but will only make them worse.

Because the solutions to help ourself are also the one needed to help these people


Regardless of what pity I may have felt, the moment they approached me like an invader or coloniser is the moment I treated them as opposition
We are colonizers

Our europpean nations have a colonial history that is still perpetuated to this day. We live in imperial states in a neo-colonial era. We are still stripping the global south from their ressources, directly our indirectly, we are still exploitating people, we are still dehumanizing them.

It's not about blaming individuals and it's not an illusion, it's reality. And the impact of our past actions can't be scrapped in a little century or two without any measures or reparations. Our countries destroyed everything. Now it's time to pay the due.


You're incorrect though. Criminality is not all desperation. It is as much opportunism. They see an opportunity and take it. When I was a child, I was homeless. My family did not result to assaulting and robbing people. My mother worked two jobs as a single woman. You cannot excuse bad behaviour so simply.
I hear your experience and the strong work of your family. I can't dismiss that. But this is an exception confirming the rules of oppression.

Stability or education or the access to opportunities even in the most difficult moments like homelessness or oppression are taught and secured by social conditions not just by will power alone.

Leftism praxis aims at understanding the mechanism behind these principles..

Understanding that certain material conditions and realities leads to behavior like crimes or sometimes success in sometimes very similar condition is fundamental. It's not about excusing, it's about understanding. Sometimes, there are systems and conditions at play that are invisible to us, but are completely life changing on the long term. Some people don't have these conditions or don't have the luxury of just not commiting any thief.

We can't rise from a situation simply out our pure will when the conditions are not met. It takes a refundation of the system shaping the behaviors to do that.



You peddle in as much fear-mongering as the right you bemoan.
Now this is right. I do try to bring you to fear fascism. This is true. But there is something you do not take into account :

When the far right uses fear to promote reactionnary politics or rethoric, they are doing it based on their biases, their racism, fake systemism and fake informations.

BUT

When I'm trying to make you fear the rise of Fascism, I have historians and scientific behind me trying to wake you up as well

If I'm starting to panic, it's because the rest of the world don't. And worse, some people want to make things worse through reactionnary politics without understanding one bit what monster they are creating. (well some actually do, and they were marching in the street with Nazi salute)

Yes. I'm telling you to be scared of the monster you are promoting, not because I'm delusionnal, but because I know my history and I listen to the expert who are trying to warn the population that fascism is coming.


Your sympathies do not seem to lie with the struggling natives, only those who you see as "victims" in your wider hierarchy. Different priorities I suppose?
You mean Europpeans ? Why use the term "native" ? Do you think we are being colonized right now ?

I do care about people who don't have a job, people like me who are marginalized, people who are dehumanized and exploited not matter their origin. That's why I'm a leftist.

I'm a marxist, meaning that I'm also anticapitalist, I'm against a society with class. But I understand that racism helps capitalism and capitalism helps racism. I won't be able to really be anticapitalism unless I'm an antiracist and anticolonist too. Because the weapon that are aimed at racialized or migrants people right now, will be aimed at me next.

ALL STRUGGLES ARE INTERCONNECTED.

I'm not free until EVERYONE is free
 
My late friend used to be in a union. They had him attending strikes and stuff.

I care a lot about personal freedom and agency, so I'd probably not last if I was forced to partake in things that don't really align with my interests or wants.

But each his or her own. It's not a major problem for me. If it works for you, go for it.
Yeah I definetly agree, I think it would best be optional
 
It can be easy to look away when our societies still benefit from historical exploitation.

I'm not asking specific individuals to save other, the problem happens when we elector promote people who prevent society as a whole to take care of the ones in need. Our societies have responsiblities. We destroyed, we exploited and profited from the global south. Now, because of what we did or still do, people are forced to come and migrate or to wage war. Aknowleging our responsibilities in the matter and acting ethically accordingly to this reality is absolutely necessary for us to help ourselves.

I can "respect" someone saying "it's not my problem" as long as they understand that we are part of a society that has ethical responsibilities. The problem comes when that attitude becomes a political program that perpetuates poverty and marginalization.

There is a sayin that everyone imperatively needs to understand: "I'm not free until everyone else is free"

Pushing ourselves aside from the problematic created by our own societies will not solve our problems but will only make them worse.

Because the solutions to help ourself are also the one needed to help these people



We are colonizers

Our europpean nations have a colonial history that is still perpetuated to this day. We live in imperial states in a neo-colonial era. We are still stripping the global south from their ressources, directly our indirectly, we are still exploitating people, we are still dehumanizing them.

It's not about blaming individuals and it's not an illusion, it's reality. And the impact of our past actions can't be scrapped in a little century or two without any measures or reparations. Our countries destroyed everything. Now it's time to pay the due.



I hear your experience and the strong work of your family. I can't dismiss that. But this is an exception confirming the rules of oppression.

Stability or education or the access to opportunities even in the most difficult moments like homelessness or oppression are taught and secured by social conditions not just by will power alone.

Leftism praxis aims at understanding the mechanism behind these principles..

Understanding that certain material conditions and realities leads to behavior like crimes or sometimes success in sometimes very similar condition is fundamental. It's not about excusing, it's about understanding. Sometimes, there are systems and conditions at play that are invisible to us, but are completely life changing on the long term. Some people don't have these conditions or don't have the luxury of just not commiting any thief.

We can't rise from a situation simply out our pure will when the conditions are not met. It takes a refundation of the system shaping the behaviors to do that.



Now this is right. I do try to bring you to fear fascism. This is true. But there is something you do not take into account :

When the far right uses fear to promote reactionnary politics or rethoric, they are doing it based on their biases, their racism, fake systemism and fake informations.

BUT

When I'm trying to make you fear the rise of Fascism, I have historians and scientific behind me trying to wake you up as well

If I'm starting to panic, it's because the rest of the world don't. And worse, some people want to make things worse through reactionnary politics without understanding one bit what monster they are creating. (well some actually do, and they were marching in the street with Nazi salute)

Yes. I'm telling you to be scared of the monster you are promoting, not because I'm delusionnal, but because I know my history and I listen to the expert who are trying to warn the population that fascism is coming.



You mean Europpeans ? Why use the term "native" ? Do you think we are being colonized right now ?

I do care about people who don't have a job, people like me who are marginalized, people who are dehumanized and exploited not matter their origin. That's why I'm a leftist.

I'm a marxist, meaning that I'm also anticapitalist, I'm against a society with class. But I understand that racism helps capitalism and capitalism helps racism. I won't be able to really be anticapitalism unless I'm an antiracist and anticolonist too. Because the weapon that are aimed at racialized or migrants people right now, will be aimed at me next.

ALL STRUGGLES ARE INTERCONNECTED.

I'm not free until EVERYONE is free
Ironically country is eastern european and its rich resources get sold for cheap to western countries
 
It can be easy to look away when our societies still benefit from historical exploitation.

I'm not asking specific individuals to save other, the problem happens when we elector promote people who prevent society as a whole to take care of the ones in need. Our societies have responsiblities. We destroyed, we exploited and profited from the global south. Now, because of what we did or still do, people are forced to come and migrate or to wage war. Aknowleging our responsibilities in the matter and acting ethically accordingly to this reality is absolutely necessary for us to help ourselves.

I can "respect" someone saying "it's not my problem" as long as they understand that we are part of a society that has ethical responsibilities. The problem comes when that attitude becomes a political program that perpetuates poverty and marginalization.

There is a sayin that everyone imperatively needs to understand: "I'm not free until everyone else is free"

Pushing ourselves aside from the problematic created by our own societies will not solve our problems but will only make them worse.

Because the solutions to help ourself are also the one needed to help these people



We are colonizers

Our europpean nations have a colonial history that is still perpetuated to this day. We live in imperial states in a neo-colonial era. We are still stripping the global south from their ressources, directly our indirectly, we are still exploitating people, we are still dehumanizing them.

It's not about blaming individuals and it's not an illusion, it's reality. And the impact of our past actions can't be scrapped in a little century or two without any measures or reparations. Our countries destroyed everything. Now it's time to pay the due.



I hear your experience and the strong work of your family. I can't dismiss that. But this is an exception confirming the rules of oppression.

Stability or education or the access to opportunities even in the most difficult moments like homelessness or oppression are taught and secured by social conditions not just by will power alone.

Leftism praxis aims at understanding the mechanism behind these principles..

Understanding that certain material conditions and realities leads to behavior like crimes or sometimes success in sometimes very similar condition is fundamental. It's not about excusing, it's about understanding. Sometimes, there are systems and conditions at play that are invisible to us, but are completely life changing on the long term. Some people don't have these conditions or don't have the luxury of just not commiting any thief.

We can't rise from a situation simply out our pure will when the conditions are not met. It takes a refundation of the system shaping the behaviors to do that.



Now this is right. I do try to bring you to fear fascism. This is true. But there is something you do not take into account :

When the far right uses fear to promote reactionnary politics or rethoric, they are doing it based on their biases, their racism, fake systemism and fake informations.

BUT

When I'm trying to make you fear the rise of Fascism, I have historians and scientific behind me trying to wake you up as well

If I'm starting to panic, it's because the rest of the world don't. And worse, some people want to make things worse through reactionnary politics without understanding one bit what monster they are creating. (well some actually do, and they were marching in the street with Nazi salute)

Yes. I'm telling you to be scared of the monster you are promoting, not because I'm delusionnal, but because I know my history and I listen to the expert who are trying to warn the population that fascism is coming.



You mean Europpeans ? Why use the term "native" ? Do you think we are being colonized right now ?

I do care about people who don't have a job, people like me who are marginalized, people who are dehumanized and exploited not matter their origin. That's why I'm a leftist.

I'm a marxist, meaning that I'm also anticapitalist, I'm against a society with class. But I understand that racism helps capitalism and capitalism helps racism. I won't be able to really be anticapitalism unless I'm an antiracist and anticolonist too. Because the weapon that are aimed at racialized or migrants people right now, will be aimed at me next.

ALL STRUGGLES ARE INTERCONNECTED.

I'm not free until EVERYONE is free
I'll try to be succinct for everybody's sanity. First, I acknowledge that England caused some problems in the world. But I do not believe I am obligated to pay for what was essentially war. This is the history of war. I know that sounds cruel, but that was the way of the world, and I do not think I must pay for my ancestor's actions. We are taught universally that two wrongs don't make a right, right?

I think the ones dominating the global south are billionaires disconnected from myself and the general populace. Let them reap the consequences, but overburdening my homeland and the rest of Europe is also not the answer. Can you not see that all it does is cause friction, violence, and despair? There will be a bloodbath one day, I am pretty certain of it. I don't want it to happen, but when the line is crossed one too many times... an eruption is inevitable.

I do think large swathes of migrants slowly eroding natural cultures is a form of colonisation, yes.

I am certain if we denied immigrants benefits, social housing, and other incentives such as access to our free healthcare system, only the ones who want to exist and integrate with my culture would remain. And those are the ones I appreciate and welcome wholeheartedly. Despite my hard stance, I have immigrant friends. My wife is an immigrant, even. My concern isn't because of "the foreigns" but because of what a lack of integration is causing on a societal scale.

You have a lovely sentiment, Logiko, but I think giving them access to something they never contributed to is a kick in the face of all those who uphold and pay for the system itself, such as your average working class individual.

As for fascism, it's not the answer, I already know that. But I do not think deporting individuals back to their home is the same as gas-chambers and ethno-cleansing. It's not a genocide. It's not that I am without a heart. I acknowledge these individuals as humans who want to live their best life, but life isn't fair, and they are not entitled to potentially ruin others simply because they exist or want something. They need to provide something to have access to that which their ancestors did not build through commerce or yes, war.

Do I want them to suffer? No.

Do I wish them personal ill? Absolutely not.

But I also don't want my culture to be eroded and destroyed. I have seen places where I grew up become a shadow of the past, Logiko. Pretty much ghettos. It's heartbreaking.
 
Last edited:
To put things into perspective

Unions were needed because factory workers were DYING, with kids as young as 4 working, 80+ hours a week, and with nothing to protect them

Tech workers aren't overworked, just underemployed
 
Top