Controversial General Political Discussion

[Logiko]

to be fair, outside of politcal context materialism is a philosophical idea about there not being anything that is immaterial, and is very close tied to physicalism. you are using the term in a political context, hence the confusion on RyoQ's part i guess

Indeed, I jumped a step here. Materialism has a philosophy is simply the fact of believing that our conscience, our ideas are the result of physical and therefore material interactions of the universe. That there is not some magic ideas that can appear out of nothingness.

Physicalism is a bit of a radical vision of that that can also take free-will into account and historical materialism is the political side.

Germany, Italy, and Japan lost WW2. Not those who funded them, as much of Hitler's war regime was funded by American Business interests (see Bush's granddaddy selling war supplies to them if you want a place to start, then move up to J. P. Morgan and the Business Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot )

The true evil moved to the USA and Isfake, and they've never stopped spreading their terrorism.

Germany, France, UK, Italy. The four horsemen of genocidal complicity.

No, materialism cannot account for consciousness (at least consciousness in terms of being able to engage in self reflection).

Of course it can, we do not exactly understand the full process just yet, but consciousness is a simply result of electrical, biological, and material conditions.

We are a biological and social machine. We - or our consciousness and brain - do not escape the material reality of our world.

Ethics aren't possible if you are a materialist either since ethics require universals and form-matter distinction

This is morality. It aims at defining the good and bad in actions based on subjective and universal vision, but it's flawed.

Ethics, while coming from an idealist, take contextual informations into account and not a biased universality. It's more robust.

And since ethics usually push us to understand the world of structure, consequences and context, it's a sub form of political materialism.

 

[RyoQ]

Of course it can, we do not exactly understand the full process just yet, but consciousness is a simply result of electrical, biological, and material conditions.

no that is only one aspect of consciousness, human consciousness in terms of being able to engage in self reflection is impossible for materialism

things like memory, sensory awareness etc. sure

Ethics, while coming from an idealist, take contextual informations into account and not a biased universality. It's more robust.

And since ethics usually push us to understand the world of structure, consequences and context, it's a sub form of political materialism

The word ethics should really just be deleted from existence. Everything you listed (consequences, context, the structure of the world AKA how things should be) are factors of what makes a decision morally right or wrong

 

[Rej]

this is my most favorite quote by myself

"there's no good there's no evil there's no right there's no wrong there's only one thing and that's point of view"

So a mentally ill sociopath killing his wife and 2 children and then killing himself is not evil/wrong, but just a "perspective"?

What about the torturing and abuse cartells in South Korea? What is their perspective?

What about a capable person saving someone's life after a heart attack? Isn't that "good" as per definition?

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 1:34 PM

What AL is saying here I think, he is subjectively practicing "Null Philosophy" and he thinks it's the absolute perspective.

 

[Logiko]

no that is only one aspect of consciousness, human consciousness in terms of being able to engage in self reflection is impossible for materialism

Self reflection is part of a biological, sensory, electrical and social process just as any other thought process. It's just a material reality.

I understand that it's a bit underwhelming at first, but for me, it opens up a world of wonders of biological and social possibilities.

The word ethics should really just be deleted from existence.

You just made Spinoza tremble in his grave.

Without ethics, we come back to a world of senseless behaviors. In such world, you will strip the context out of the justice system.

A world without ethics is a world of tyran, dictators and fascist.

Everything you listed (consequences, context, the structure of the world AKA how things should be) are factors of what makes a decision morally right or wrong

Wrong. If you strip out the context of a situation, you talk about morality, no ethics anymore.

As such, if you stop being ethical, you stop looking at the material and contextual reality of the situation and you impose your vision of the world in an universal matter, no matter the context.

 

[Mathias]

So a mentally ill sociopath killing his wife and 2 children and then killing himself is not evil/wrong, but just a "perspective"?

What about the torturing and abuse cartells in South Korea? What is their perspective?

What about a capable person saving someone's life after a heart attack? Isn't that "good" as per definition?

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 1:34 PM

What AL is saying here I think, he is subjectively practicing "Null Philosophy" and he thinks it's the absolute perspective.

Perspectivism doesn't equate to relativism.

In nature there might not be good or bad, but in one's perspective, there is.

It doesn't mean you have to join a drug cartel

 

[RyoQ]

Self reflection is part of a biological, sensory, electrical and social process just as any other thought process. It's just a material reality

is self-reflection just a sensory or electrical process? I thought self reflection reflects upon biological or sensory happenings in the body, how can self reflection be mere matter if it observes matter

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 1:56 PM

You just made Spinoza tremble in his grave.

Without ethics, we come back to a world of senseless behaviors. In such world, you will strip the context out of the justice system.

A world without ethics is a world of tyran, dictators and fascist

I am not sure how you would define ethics. You can't have ethics without morals tho

 

[Logiko]

is self-reflection just a sensory or electrical process?

I'm not a brain specialist, I can't help you with that question. The important thing is, it's a result of a material chain reaction.

I thought self reflection reflects upon biological or sensory happenings in the body, how can self reflection be mere matter if it observes matter

Self reflection is not just a reaction, it's a biological consequence of a material process (electrical, neuronal most likely, I'm not an expert).

If you can think, it's because your brain is doing all the process behind the conscious curtain. Your self reflection is but a sub process in the machine, and all this machine is influenced by interior and exterior material and structural conditions of existence.

I am not sure how you would define ethics. You can't have ethics without morals tho

You could look at ethics as an update of morality. It's morality but upgraded to take into account the contextual reality of the world and thus... create a world that is more fair and just.

 

[RyoQ]

I'm not a brain specialist, I can't help you with that question. The important thing is, it's a result of a material chain reaction

Seeing as self reflection observes the brain, it cannot be in the brain

 

[Rej]

In nature there might not be good or bad, but in one's perspective, there is.

But our cosmic value is certainly a positive.

Everything from the big bang until the creation of life is a +1, the -1 is just unseen. There is no 0, because it would imply absolute Nihility and that would imply a nonexistent consciousness. But we ourself are disproving that fact.

So I think in subjectivity it is okay to say "I am neither good nor evil", that is a perspective with values and not anything absolute.

Where it gets weird is to say "there is no math, no accumulation, no equation", because it's everywhere. It's in the fundamentals of our brain.

So yes there is good and bad and everything is subjective, but also everything can be mathed out and defined. Else we would become Nihility.

In order to define good and bad per karmatic scale and cosmic values:

Good = positive on karmatic scale
Bad = negative on karmatic scale

How a karmatic scale applies to each religion is each their own. The current circumstances in the world are proving that scalism is existent. So whether it's karmatic, cosmic or hyper-rational. Is again each to their own.

Not accepting this is often a sign of confusion, which imho is not a bad thing. Confusion is a result of wrong sequencing and scaling, aswell as many other things, which is another topic to discuss at another time.

I hope i made sense. My examples were extreme, but I just try to figure out my homie AL atp.
Creating this hyper philosophical quotes is always a big step imho. Religiously following them is another one.

 

[Mathias]

But our cosmic value is certainly a positive.

Everything from the big bang until the creation of life is a +1, the -1 is just unseen. There is no 0, because it would imply absolute Nihility and that would imply a nonexistent consciousness. But we ourself are disproving that fact.

So I think in subjectivity it is okay to say "I am neither good nor evil", that is a perspective with values and not anything absolute.

Where it gets weird is to say "there is no math, no accumulation, no equation", because it's everywhere. It's in the fundamentals of our brain.

So yes there is good and bad and everything is subjective, but also everything can be mathed out and defined. Else we would become Nihility.

In order to define good and bad per karmatic scale and cosmic values:

Good = positive on karmatic scale
Bad = negative on karmatic scale

How a karmatic scale applies to each religion is each their own. The current circumstances in the world are proving that scalism is existent. So whether it's karmatic, cosmic or hyper-rational. Is again each to their own.

Not accepting this is often a sign of confusion, which imho is not a bad thing. Confusion is a result of wrong sequencing and scaling, aswell as many other things, which is another topic to discuss at another time.

I hope i made sense. My examples were extreme, but I just try to figure out my homie AL atp.
Creating this hyper philosophical quotes is always a big step imho. Religiously following them is another one.

Why did you bring up mathematics and cosmology and karma ?

Is it because I said "in NATURE there is no good or bad" ? It meant that in itself, you can't touch the things you call good or bad.

Anyway

 

[RyoQ]

Self reflection is not just a reaction, it's a biological consequence of a material process (electrical, neuronal most likely, I'm not an expert).

If you can think, it's because your brain is doing all the process behind the conscious curtain. Your self reflection is but a sub process in the machine, and all this machine is influenced by interior and exterior material and structural conditions of existence.

how is self reflection a biological process, yet it observes biological processes? seems like a contradiction

 

[Rej]

Why did you bring up mathematics and cosmology and karma ?

Is it because I said "in NATURE there is no good or bad" ? It meant that in itself, you can't touch the things you call good or bad.

Anyway

But appreciation exists and it can also be a physical sensation lol, and it's accumulative.

 

[Logiko]

Seeing as self reflection observes the brain, it cannot be in the brain

Of course it can. That's why consciousness is such a wonder.

how is self reflection a biological process, yet it observes biological processes? seems like a contradiction

No, It is simply a complex and beautiful natural process. The brain is a biological machine that models itself as an object of observation.

When you observe what you feel, what you think, what you believe in, your brain is projecting an image of its own activity. It's a form of self-interpretation of reality. The brain creates representations, patterns, symbols, imagination etc. but it's all happening inside.

 

[Mathias]

But appreciation exists and it can also be a physical sensation lol, and it's accumulative.

So what ? You’re making bridges that don’t have to be between different fields

 

[RyoQ]

Of course it can. That's why consciousness is such a wonder.

It's a wonder because it's a contradiction, how can self reflection be matter if it observes matter?

This is a philosophical dilemma

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 3:05 PM

When you observe what you feel, what you think, what you believe in, your brain is projecting an image of its own activity. It's a form of self-interpretation of reality.

Reddit slop

If materialism was true, you could not even "think" or reflect to begin with, you would act like an animal

 

[Logiko]

It's a wonder because it's a contradiction, how can self reflection be matter if it observes matter?

This is a philosophical dilemma

Self reflection is a projection of material process (like electrical signal, not just "matter"). I often use this metaphor to explain that:

The brain is one big movie theatre. The mind is the projection on the screen, the Brain is the projector. The process happens inside the brain and is interpretated by it's own machine as a consciousness but your sense of self is just a seat in front of the screen.

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 3:12 PM

Reddit slop

If materialism was true, you could not even "think" or reflect to begin with, you would act like an animal

We are animals. Some animals have a form a sentience too, even if limited. Our sentience just go beyond, we reflect on said sentience.

But the process? It's material and is a consequence of material conditions of existence.

There is nothing really magical or divine about consciousness, it's just a consequence of our material biology.

 

[Etzel Andergast]

Read about the hard problem of conciousness

 

[Zenos7]

is self-reflection just a sensory or electrical process? I thought self reflection reflects upon biological or sensory happenings in the body, how can self reflection be mere matter if it observes matter

personal incredulity. this guy is catching logical fallacies like they are fucking pokemon

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 3:23 PM

human consciousness in terms of being able to engage in self reflection is impossible for materialism

what about non-human consciousness that is capable of self reflection?

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 3:26 PM

If materialism was true, you could not even "think" or reflect to begin with, you would act like an animal

another mofo that doesnt give animals the credit they deserve.

 

[Etzel Andergast]

another mofo that doesnt give animals the credit they deserve.

I do

 

[RyoQ]

Self reflection is a projection of material process (like electrical signal, not just "matter"). I often use this metaphor to explain that:

The brain is one big movie theatre. The mind is the projection on the screen, the Brain is the projector. The process happens inside the brain and is interpretated by it's own machine as a consciousness but your sense of self is just a seat in front of the screen.

The mind is just a seat in front of the screen? how does it know it's a seat in front of the screen?

Again, matter cannot self-reflect, there must be an immaterial faculty that does that since self reflection is an immaterial process involving concepts, universals, intentionality...