Controversial General Political Discussion

[Logiko]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1975738453389418594

That's why you shouldn't listen to apolitical youtubers, specifically when they have ATROCIOUS narrative takes. Jay D completely misses the subtilities of Luffy's character. While Luffy will usually refuse to intervene. This refusal stands on ethical principles of non interference.

Luffy, when presented with the entire context of an injust and oppressive situation, does not wait to intervenene or try to.

Brain -> 5 senses, fires neurons, stores memory, etc.

The five sense thing is actually a myth. We have so much more senses than that.

Mind -> receives info from brain to form concepts, uses concepts to engage in self-reflection

Indeed. And the loop is influencing itself

Here you can see the speed of the ball as the nature of the signals, when the signal is X, the ball falls, but when it's Y it goes faster and can influence the trajectory of others signals. As you can see here, a self contained system influencing itself.

if what illogiko says about materialism is true, there can be really no ethics or morals at all to begin with so nothing can be argued as inherently evil. AKA you could justify anything

Of course there can. Our material interest are determining our ethics.

 

[AL sama]

Uhm...really on a fundamental level. Starting from birth and getting a feel for sensations. Accumulation, as in a corner stone of human growth and growth of a personality.

good = personal interest
bad = personal loss

I can't make it any easier than that

 

[Reborn]

if what illogiko says about materialism is true, there can be really no ethics or morals at all to begin with so nothing can be argued as inherently evil. AKA you could justify anything

One can indeed justify anything.

But justification doesn't equate to being true.

Perspective only reflects how one see things which varies....but is that perspective in itself is right or wrong is different thing.

 

[Roo]

That's why you shouldn't listen to apolitical youtubers, specifically when they have ATROCIOUS narrative takes. Jay D completely misses the subtilities of Luffy's character. While Luffy will usually refuse to intervene. This refusal stands on ethical principles of non interference.

Luffy, when presented with the entire context of an injust and oppressive situation, does not wait to intervenene or try to.

.

I don't think Jay is necessarily wrong in a sense that Luffy does not go out of his way to help people like some fans project him too. Would Luffy let an injustice happen in front of him? probably not. If he was in IRL would he go to Ukraine, Sudan or Palestine to help them? Probably not lol

 

[Mathias]

I don't force my views onto others

Okay but how do you mix it with a manichean religion ? Das da question

 

[Rej]

good = personal interest
bad = personal loss

I can't make it any easier than that

this does not answer my question at all, but I guess I can accept this out of box take

whether I can add it to my values is another thing

when I think about it, I see it for sure differently

I think it's partially true.

One can say there is no good or bad.

One can argue outside events aren't inherently good or bad...its our perception which add meaning to the outside events.

As perception of everyone differs based on experience, conscience, culture and so on...so, does the meaning they attach to outside events. Thus, one can say there isn't anything good or bad.... right or wrong.


However, I do feel this is partially true. There are certain things which can be argued are inherently wrong....like genocides or inherently good.

like what Reborn-san is tackling here, "inheritance".

Accumulation into human growth are one thing I consider as inherently good. Without it we wouldn't exist as we are, we probably would have no history books and the concept of teaching and learning would not exist.

Taking this into another direction, like for example in a materialistic-philosophical sense, I personally think that the idea of "overneccessity" is a bad thing. Because it is the root cause of fatigue. Not only fatigue for humans, but fatigue towards bigger structures, mechanisms and concepts.

Just examples if we take the "inheritant" layer of this.

Anyway I am done flexxing. I am short on time lol

 

[AL sama]

I think it's partially true.

One can say there is no good or bad.

One can argue outside events aren't inherently good or bad...its our perception which add meaning to the outside events.

As perception of everyone differs based on experience, conscience, culture and so on...so, does the meaning they attach to outside events. Thus, one can say there isn't anything good or bad.... right or wrong.


However, I do feel this is partially true. There are certain things which can be argued are inherently wrong....like genocides or inherently good.

Hitler committed genocide which is considered objectively bad/evil but it was good for him and his followers

 

[AL sama]

Okay but how do you mix it with a manichean religion ? Das da question

you think I m very religious??

 

[Reborn]

Hitler committed genocide which is considered objectively bad/evil but it was good for him and his followers

Here's the difference


Hitler committed genocide. For him, it was justified and he did justify it

For the world, it wasn't.

so, for many it was wrong but for some it was right.

However, Hitler's perception shows perceptions without any limits or boundaries become dangerous. And, such perceptions or justification aren't truth..

 

[Rej]

Hitler committed genocide which is considered objectively bad/evil but it was good for him and his followers

ChatGPT, can you please apply some Theory of Accumulation on this statement to debunk it?
Ah yes, the Butterfly Effect. Hitler killed himself.

Joke aside, it might have been temporarily good tho, but an answer to his actions was to be expected.

The karmatic scale persists and everything goes full circle.

 

[Mathias]

you think I m very religious??

Not at all but I’m curious anyway. Although it seems you just answered.

 

[AL sama]

However, Hitler's perception shows perceptions without any limits or boundaries become dangerous. And, such perceptions or justification aren't truth..

it was good to him regardless

btw I m not asking anyone to agree with me

 

[Logiko]

I don't think Jay is necessarily wrong in a sense that Luffy does not go out of his way to help people like some fans project him too. Would Luffy let an injustice happen in front of him? probably not. If he was in IRL would he go to Ukraine, Sudan or Palestine to help them? Probably not lol

The statement he rejects is this one : "Luffy would not stand for oppression" but people are right he would not. Even without intervening.

That's the subtility of Luffy that most One Piece fan misses. And something very important politically. Luffy lets people fight their own fight, not because doesn't care, but because he considers the agencyof the oppressed as more important than anything else.

If he was in IRL would he go to Ukraine, Sudan or Palestine to help them? Probably not lol

As I explained. Luffy does not go toward the injustice, not because he doesn't care, but because he believe in the agency of the fighter and refuse to impose himself unless it's necessary and asked. This is very important because that's a MASSIVE activism principle, especially concerning feminism and anti-ableism etc.. A good political principle, is to stand back and let people fight their fight

 

[Reborn]

it was good to him regardless

btw I m not asking anyone to agree with me

It was good to him.

Being good to someone doesn't mean it's inherently good.

In short, for hitler his actions were good and justified but that doesn't make those actions or reasons "inherently good"

 

[Rej]

this does not answer my question at all, but I guess I can accept this out of box take

whether I can add it to my values is another thing

when I think about it, I see it for sure differently


like what Reborn-san is tackling here, "inheritance".

Accumulation into human growth are one thing I consider as inherently good. Without it we wouldn't exist as we are, we probably would have no history books and the concept of teaching and learning would not exist.

Taking this into another direction, like for example in a materialistic-philosophical sense, I personally think that the idea of "overneccessity" is a bad thing. Because it is the root cause of fatigue. Not only fatigue for humans, but fatigue towards bigger structures, mechanisms and concepts.

Just examples if we take the "inheritant" layer of this.

Anyway I am done flexxing. I am short on time lol

ChatGPT, can you please apply some Theory of Accumulation on this statement to debunk it?
Ah yes, the Butterfly Effect. Hitler killed himself.

Joke aside, it might have been temporarily good tho, but an answer to his actions was to be expected.

The karmatic scale persists and everything goes full circle.

 

[AL sama]

ChatGPT, can you please apply some Theory of Accumulation on this statement to debunk it?
Ah yes, the Butterfly Effect. Hitler killed himself.

Joke aside, it might have been temporarily good tho, but an answer to his actions was to be expected.

The karmatic scale persists and everything goes full circle.

lol you know me than that

Not at all but I’m curious anyway. Although it seems you just answered.

I m not vey religious nor m I very expressive so I don't face much problems

 

[AL sama]

It was good to him.

Being good to someone doesn't mean it's inherently good.

In short, for hitler his actions were good and justified but that doesn't make those actions or reasons "inherently good"

I don't believe in objective or inherent good simple

 

[RyoQ]

One can indeed justify anything.

But justification doesn't equate to being true.

Well yeah. What I meant was someone could justify something and not be incorrect if nothing is inherently good/evil as Illogikos materialism would imply
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The five sense thing is actually a myth. We have so much more senses than that

Well, any number of senses. I just meant sensory experience in general
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Here you can see the speed of the ball as the nature of the signals, when the signal is X, the ball falls, but when it's Y it goes faster and can influence the trajectory of others signals. As you can see here, a self contained system influencing itself

It's not self contained, it is hierarchical

The mind or self-reflective part of our consciousness is not material, it is above the material aspect of ourselves (our brain and body)
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Hitler committed genocide which is considered objectively bad/evil but it was good for him and his followers

Well, a good means doesn't justify an evil act, only good action and good means correspond. So even doing something evil to get something good (like a genocide), is still evil

 

[Logiko]

The mind or self-reflective part of our consciousness is not material, it is above the material aspect of ourselves (our brain and body)

There is no hierarchy in nature. A star is not above a grain of sand.

"The mind" is a result, a simple consequence, a projection of real material process. Your consciousness is an illusion created by this process.

The immateriality of the world does not exist without the material one. A concept is but an interpretation of reality.

 

[Blax Blah]

Hitler committed genocide which is considered objectively bad/evil but it was good for him and his followers

It was bad for him and his followers, it lead to him destroying his morality and killing himself, and his followers suffered from it too