Controversial General Political Discussion

[Logiko]

how do you feel about the allies invading Germany to overthrow the Nazis

and the fact that innocent German women and children died in that invasion. Ally leaders knew innocent Germans would probably die, they just inevitably calculated that the sacrifice was worth it.

I don't know. I don't have all the contextual informations. And my political brain is not always coherent. Killing innocent german would be unethical. The question is "was it necessary" ? I don't know.. I was not there. But if it was done today.. I would do it differently yes.. to a certain point.

Nah.. and this is why it's so cruel but also so interesting. War is not rational and not really ethical or justifiable. There is always a better solution. but in this context... the choices become strange. This is why we must be 1000 time more careful.

Fuck the police but we legit need them so whatever

Nah. There is no "we need them". We don't.

 

[Logiko]

80 years is a lot tho, at some point you have to give up on reclaiming an entire area and kicking out the people who curtently live there

This is why a one state solution is the best option. Of course sending people away is useless and will only create horrible situations and precarity.

But there is a way to make everyone coexist on a shared land.

 

[Roo]

This is why a one state solution is the best option. Of course sending people away is useless and will only create horrible situations and precarity.

But there is a way to make everyone coexist on a shared land.

One state solution is ideal but neither party wants it. It’s best to just get a Palestinian state and try to mend relations between both nations which hopefully overtime can lead to an unified state, or at least a one state two nations thing

 

[Midnight Delight]

This is why a one state solution is the best option. Of course sending people away is useless and will only create horrible situations and precarity.

But there is a way to make everyone coexist on a shared land.

It's never gonna happen
We saw in Lebanon Iraq and Syria how impossible it is

 

[Roo]

It's never gonna happen
We saw in Lebanon Iraq and Syria how impossible it is

Yugoslavia is my go to example of trying to force ethnic groups together lol

it’s best to let the people choose instead of trying to force them

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Look at the all the pro war movies during any major war. Also see societies such as the Spartans which glorified wars
[automerge]1765310413[/automerge]

80 years is a lot tho, at some point you have to give up on reclaiming an entire area and kicking out the people who curtently live there

I mean, sure, but the vast majority of people see war as a terrible thing.

 

[Logiko]

One state solution is ideal but neither party wants it. It’s best to just get a Palestinian state and try to mend relations between both nations which hopefully overtime can lead to an unified state, or at least a one state two nations thing

The problem is not the one state solution really, but what it requires from at least one of the party:

It requires Israelian to acknowledge their colonial history... this, alone, is the biggest challenge. I mean, if the US can't even create real reparation of natives americans.. this is pretty much mission impossible.

But if we allow for both population to fullfill their material needs (decent : education, shelter, food, medecine, hobbies, cultures, spiritualism etc.) things should settle pretty quickly. War is always something that is hard to start when we don't need it.

It's never gonna happen
We saw in Lebanon Iraq and Syria how impossible it is

I'm not a specialist of the region, but If I'm not mistaken, these country are currently under the strike of the imperialist hammer. There is no way to create the condition for peace when a bunch of racist and imperialist country are trying to take over all your ressources and goepolitical assets.

 

[Roo]

The problem is not the one state solution really, but what it requires from at least one of the party:

It requires Israelian to acknowledge their colonial history... this, alone, is the biggest challenge. I mean, if the US can't even create real reparation of natives americans.. this is pretty much mission impossible.

But if we allow for both population to fullfill their material needs (decent : education, shelter, food, medecine, hobbies, cultures, spiritualism etc.) things should settle pretty quickly. War is always something that is hard to start when we don't need it.

I'm not a specialist of the region, but If I'm not mistaken, these country are currently under the strike of the imperialist hammer. There is no way to create the condition for peace when a bunch of racist and imperialist country are trying to take over all your ressources and goepolitical assets.

Even if Israel agrees to all of this, Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank do not want a state with equal rights with Israelis

is just won’t work as of now

 

[Uncle Van]

It almost feels like logiko just bases his political alignments on random fictional works he likes at this point
He seems to have a very primitive view of the world in general and acts like nothing bad should ever happen no matter what
It's weird.

He operates on the idea that human beings are perfectable, and can all live happily ever after if their matieral conditions are equalized. These types of societies are portrayed as dystopian for a reason, for they heavily rely on getting rid of the individual for the sake of the collective.

Fuck the police but we legit need them so whatever

That's something that lok just cant comprehend. The police in the US were literally created and organized for the purpose of capturing slaves, and later to arrest black people for free labor. But saying the police today needs to go aka let criminal run amok is insane lol.

 

[Midnight Delight]

I'm not a specialist of the region, but If I'm not mistaken, these country are currently under the strike of the imperialist hammer. There is no way to create the condition for peace when a bunch of racist and imperialist country are trying to take over all your ressources and goepolitical assets

The West didn't force Saddam to Gas Kurds
The West Didn't Force Palestinians to attack Maronites sparking a 50 years sectarian war
The West didn't force the Muslim brotherhood to declare war on Alawites and Druze based on Ibn Tamiyyah's teaching
The West didn't force Yasser Arafatass to say "Thank god in Palestine we don't have the vermin known as Shia" out of fucking nowhere

Nice try

 

[Logiko]

Even if Israel agrees to all of this, Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank do not want a state with equal rights with Israelis is just won’t work as of now

The ideological part is important and will last for a while, yeah. But what people want is what people need first: Decent material condition existence.

I'm sorry If i'm very redondant with these three world, but they shape the world. The ideological power will not last in front of the needs of parent to have their children live happy, sheltered, educated, healthy and well fed.

No matter how hard an ideology is, it doesn't weight much against our desire to be happy. And the moment this ideology will contradict this happiness, it will fade away.

These types of societies are portrayed as dystopian for a reason,

And you call yourself a leftist ? Dude...

for they heavily rely on getting rid of the individual for the sake of the collective.

This is such a simplistic way of seeing socialist societies...

It's the opposite. but hey... you do you

and later to arrest black people for free labor. But saying the police today needs to go aka let criminal run amok is insane lol.

Nah... Since most criminal are in office right now

The West didn't force Saddam to Gas Kurds
The West Didn't Force Palestinians to attack Maronites sparking a 50 years sectarian war
The West didn't force the Muslim brotherhood to declare war on Alawites and Druze based on Ibn Tamiyyah's teaching
The West didn't force Yasser Arafatass to say "Thank god in Palestine we don't have the vermin known as Shia" out of fucking nowhere

Nice try

Don't "nice try" me challenger. You should know by now that it is not because I don't have all the historical informations that I can't not see your game. I will always end up seeing it, no matter how much you will try to hide it.

If I follow my guts, which are usually right on that kind of stuff, I'd say that you are purposefully omitting the role of the west in all these conflict and thus invizibilizing the imperialism indirectly at play.

Again. Be always careful with me. I know less, but I know better.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

The ideological part is important and will last for a while, yeah. But what people want is what people need first: Decent material condition existence.

I'm sorry If i'm very redondant with these three world, but they shape the world. The ideological power will not last in front of the needs of parent to have their children live happy, sheltered, educated, healthy and well fed.

No matter how hard an ideology is, it doesn't weight much against our desire to be happy. And the moment this ideology will contradict this happiness, it will fade away.



And you call yourself a leftist ? Dude...


This is such a simplistic way of seeing socialist societies...

It's the opposite. but hey... you do you



Nah... Since most criminal are in office right now




Don't "nice try" me challenger. You should know by now that it is not because I don't have all the historical informations that I can't not see your game. I will always end up seeing it, no matter how much you will try to hide it.

If I follow my guts, which are usually right on that kind of stuff, I'd say that you are purposefully omitting the role of the west in all these conflict and thus invizibilizing the imperialism indirectly at play.

Again. Be always careful with me. I know less, but I know better.

When did Van say he's a leftist? Also, do you really believe we need to get rid of the police? Lol

 

[Midnight Delight]

If I follow my guts, which are usually right on that kind of stuff, I'd say that you are purposefully omitting the role of the west in all these conflict and thus invizibilizing the imperialism indirectly at play.

Typical Orientalist mentality, thinking Non Whites have zero agency

 

[Logiko]

When did Van say he's a leftist? Also, do you really believe we need to get rid of the police? Lol

Not sure if he explicited it clearly. But he surely doesn't like itwhen I say that he is still on the right.

As for the police. Yeah. Of course. The police is a force of oppression and the main defense of capitalism and other "fun things".

The police needs to go. We won't need it in a post-capitalist state.

 

[Uncle Van]

And you call yourself a leftist ? Dude...

Not being in favor of world where people have no individual autonomy is anti-left? Dude...

This is such a simplistic way of seeing socialist societies...

Wasnt talking about socialism which makes this yet another one of your assumptions for the record book

It's the opposite. but hey... you do you

Its pretty clear you dont know what socialism given what you say. Using another one of your personal creations?

Nah... Since most criminal are in office right now

And? Gonna pretend that lots of crime doesn't happen outside of office?

When did Van say he's a leftist? Also, do you really believe we need to get rid of the police? Lol

Yes he believes the polices should go. And you should know by now how he gatekeeps leftism to fit his own personal values.

 

[NAMELESS]

When did Van say he's a leftist? Also, do you really believe we need to get rid of the police? Lol

Pretty sure he did at some point. Center-left that is. I don't believe Van is another Che Guevara wannabe.

 

[Roo]

The ideological part is important and will last for a while, yeah. But what people want is what people need first: Decent material condition existence.

I'm sorry If i'm very redondant with these three world, but they shape the world. The ideological power will not last in front of the needs of parent to have their children live happy, sheltered, educated, healthy and well fed.

No matter how hard an ideology is, it doesn't weight much against our desire to be happy. And the moment this ideology will contradict this happiness, it will fade away.



And you call yourself a leftist ? Dude...


This is such a simplistic way of seeing socialist societies...

It's the opposite. but hey... you do you



Nah... Since most criminal are in office right now




Don't "nice try" me challenger. You should know by now that it is not because I don't have all the historical informations that I can't not see your game. I will always end up seeing it, no matter how much you will try to hide it.

If I follow my guts, which are usually right on that kind of stuff, I'd say that you are purposefully omitting the role of the west in all these conflict and thus invizibilizing the imperialism indirectly at play.

Again. Be always careful with me. I know less, but I know better.

This is the problem with Marxist analysis, material conditions are not a guarantee fix all

Providing them a state separate than Israel also is an immediate improvement of the current conditions but you know that it won’t get rid of the resentment they have
[automerge]1765315376[/automerge]

Typical Orientalist mentality, thinking Non Whites have zero agency

Shut up you non white gooner

 

[Logiko]

Typical Orientalist mentality, thinking Non Whites have zero agency

Learn about historical materialism, anticolonialism and anti-imperialism and then you will give me moral lesson on orientalism.

Not being in favor of world where people have no individual autonomy is anti-left? Dude...

You are talking about capitalism here..

Wasnt talking about socialism which makes this yet another one of your assumptions for the record book

>>

e operates on the idea that human beings are perfectable, and can all live happily ever after if their matieral conditions are equalized. These types of societies are portrayed as dystopian for a reason

This is socialism, or, if you prefer, communist/anarchist societies. In these society individuality is not lost.

Its pretty clear you dont know what socialism given what you say. Using another one of your personal creations?

I think you listened to much capitalist propaganda on communist/socialist societies (I'm talking about post capitalism here). Like I said. Individuality is not lost in these societies. It's just take a new form.

And? Gonna pretend that lots of crime doesn't happen outside of office?

Give me the nature of theses crimes and I will tell you how to get rid of them.

Yes he believes the polices should go. And you should know by now how he gatekeeps leftism to fit his own personal values.

Now.. I just don't accepts cops on my side. Sorry pal

This is the problem with Marxist analysis, material conditions are not a guarantee fix all

Providing them a state separate than Israel also is an immediate improvement of the current conditions but you know that it won’t get rid of the resentment they have

It's not a "fix" it's a lens.

Material condition and material interest are the lens that allows us to learn about the solutions. To get good material conditions of existence (meaning a life in peace without oppression) solution needs to be applied. Material ones. You can try a separate state, but the reality is that colonialism will continue, the appartheid will continue, the oppression will continue.

Resentment is a child idealism. It's an illusion. It never last more than a generation or two. (sometimes even in the same generation).

People want peace and reparation, they don't want revenge. Even the most radicalized one.

 

[Midnight Delight]

Learn about historical materialism, anticolonialism and anti-imperialism and then you will give me moral lesson on orientalism.

I have zero interest in your anticolonialism speeches when you refuse to acknowledge Sunni Arab Colonialism

 

[Uncle Van]

Learn about historical materialism, anticolonialism and anti-imperialism and then you will give me moral lesson on orientalism.


You are talking about capitalism here..



>>

This is socialism, or, if you prefer, communist/anarchist societies. In these society individuality is not lost.

I think you listened to much capitalist propaganda on communist/socialist societies (I'm talking about post capitalism here). Like I said. Individuality is not lost in these societies. It's just take a new form.


Give me the nature of theses crimes and I will tell you how to get rid of them.



Now.. I just don't accepts cops on my side. Sorry pal



It's not a "fix" it's a lens.

Material condition and material interest are the lens that allows us to learn about the solutions. To get good material conditions of existence (meaning a life in peace without oppression) solution needs to be applied. Material ones. You can try a separate state, but the reality is that colonialism will continue, the appartheid will continue, the oppression will continue.

Resentment is a child idealism. It's an illusion. It never last more than a generation or two. (sometimes even in the same generation).

People want peace and reparation, they don't want revenge. Even the most radicalized one.

So much wrong by defintion with a large sprinkle of assumptions. Gotta love it. And "your side" consists of you alone since leftist in general are disqualified based on your personal criteria. You have such a gross lack of nuance.