Controversial General Political Discussion

[Zenos7]

The problem is intolerance.

while that definitely is an issue, the problem lies with the compatibility of different cultures or the lack thereof. and some cultures work better together than others.

but moving your society more and more to the progressive side of things (especially with things like gay marriage and transgenderism for example) but then importing shitloads of people that think this shit should be illegal (sometimes to the point of death sentence btw) is likely not going to work out well in the long run. . . .

 

[Zenos7]

But a perfect world with zero intolerance will probably never exist.

i dont like her recent development, but im still going to quote ayan hirsi ali on this:
"tolerance of intolerance is cowardice"

 

[Okamakama]

i mean sure if we want to compare societies with a couple percent foreign citizen among their population to societies with 20 % foreign citizen among their population, i guess?!

but that is the actual ridiculous take here

It's like saying that because the real life Pocahontas married John Rolfe and lived in England the entire nation was multicultural.

There have always been immigrants in homogenous societies. The difference is the percentage of immigrants as opposed to the native population.

Of course he's Spanish lnao

some cultures work better together than others.

Factually correct. Shared core values allow for better coexistence. Not all cultures share similar values, and some hold antithetical positions.

moving your society more and more to the progressive side of things (especially with things like gay marriage and transgenderism for example) but then importing shitloads of people that think this shit should be illegal (sometimes to the point of death sentence btw) is likely not going to work out well in the long run

One of my major concerns, actually. I knew a trans person who was assaulted by Muslims. They weren't arrested.

 

[Zenos7]

And you sound biased. My wife is a foreigner of a different ethnicity. That definitely makes me a xenophobe .

You're a disingenuous actor. I have no issues with foreigners. I have issues with migrants who do not integrate. Especially migrants that refuse to properly integrate, utilise a country like an economic zone, but would never welcome people in their own country for the same purpose - you know, like Pakistan, who expels Afghans:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74z19pl7wgo

yep, my family and otherwise my social environment that consists of people that have a migration background are all critical of the current situation regarding immigration, and have become much more critical in recent years.

 

[Zenos7]

Not for me

you considered me a nazi anyway?

 

[Okamakama]

yep, my family and otherwise my social environment that consists of people that have a migration background are all critical of the current situation regarding immigration, and have become much more critical in recent years.

And I'd believe that. My wife is more vocal on this than me. She considers herself a guest in the UK and was a self-identified anglophile. She absolutely cannot understand why we allow this to continue on.

There is something to be said for European immigrants as opposed to African and Middle-Eastern immigrants when it comes to integration. The former are known for assimilating a lot better. Same for East Asians from my experience.

I respect people who respect my culture and want to become part of it (note - not completely discard their own). But the latter do not do this from my experience - not often, I know a few outliers, like my friend who still calls Iran 'Persia'.

you considered me a nazi anyway?

I for one did nazi it coming.

 

[Zenos7]

Like?

scandinavian countries (though sweden has been getting alot of migrants in recent years), plenty asian countries like china, japan, india, in europe there is also poland.

and these countries have rates between below 1 percent and 3 percent in japan. and that is just not at all comparable to the 15-20 percent in germany or the UK. yall seriously cant pretend that is also "multiculturalism"

 

[Midnight Delight]

like my friend who still calls Iran 'Persia'.

Are they racist against non persians

 

[NAMELESS]

Pretty much, that is the point.

Don't project your hate of white people on others.

Yes, but before capitalism, these restriction were not based on nations and ethnicities but rather tribalism and ressources management.

As for people invinting others, you are literally leaving on a territory that once welcome people in masses thinking they would be benefactor. While not everyone agreed, the contacts were friendly, in fact, many indigeneous people welcomes ancient slave to be part of their culture as I explained earlier.

Nationalism and protection over borders based on patriotic affects is something that is quite recent.

True on nationalism, because nation-states are a modern concept, but people have always been and always will be tribal. People like to feel part of something.

You mean the genocidal colonization of the continent of America ?

Fuck you. History denier.

As I explained, immigration only favors the ruling class when said immigration can be used to distract the racist part of the working class. But as soon as the immigration becomes politicized (which is starting to happen everywhere) the ruling class loses this advantage and the immigration becomes a force of change and revolution.

Got it. Immigration is good when it helps the commie revolution.

 

[Zenos7]

I will never purport myself to be an expert on a faith I do not follow, but I have spoken with ex-Muslims who have warned me against Taqiyya being utilised to purposefully hide Islamosupremacist beliefs held by practicing Muslims. Whether this is a scare tactic by them or not is something I cannot ascertain, as there are sources saying two different things, but from what I have read, some Muslims will openly lie about their beliefs and have the shield to do so via their religion.

even the most liberal muslims i know are vehemently against gay marriage being legal.

i think i shared the study before in this thread, not going to look it up right now, but around 2010 there was a survey among college educated muslims in the UK and a third of them supported violence if it was to defend the religion from insults.

and if that is the rate among college educated muslims, you can only worry about what the general muslim population in europe actually thinks about issues like this.

 

[Okamakama]

even the most liberal muslims i know are vehemently against gay marriage being legal.

i think i shared the study before in this thread, not going to look it up right now, but around 2010 there was a survey among college educated muslims in the UK and a third of them supported violence if it was to defend the religion from insults.

and if that is the rate among college educated muslims, you can only worry about what the general muslim population in europe actually thinks about issues like this.

I mean, it's definitely a concern. They also believe in laws to protect Islam from criticism. This is not really synergetic with western values.

I've seen similar statistics. It's just reality: they will do anything to defend their religion from 'persecution' (which could be a wide range of things, both serious and innocuous).

 

[Logiko]

I know some thick as shit Muslims, so I know they're not all cunning. Jokes, aside, you haven't explained away the red flag that is taqiyya though.

Redflag? I see this word as a moral panic of the far right. These are the type of concept that pushed me to start being scared of Islam in the first place even tho I had no real knowledge of either muslims or Islam. But I simply had informations that fueled my confirmation biases.

For a hammer, everything is a nail.

You're moving all the blatant disrespect towards their benefactors towards oppression systems.

I think I'm simply replacing what you see as disrespect as result of domination system. I'm reinstauring a sociological context.

I believe in the magnificence of complexity. Every simple answers are usually the dangerous ones. When we analyze the world I truly think that simplicity must be built on the shoulders of complexity.

If I can say simply that 5 or 6 dominations system are creating the majority of oppressions in the world, it is because I've learned to understand just how complex these systems actually are and just how counter-intuitive they are for us to notice.

Another Ex : The simplicity of the solution of the conflict opposing ISrael to Palestinian can only be understood through a complex set of anticolonial knowledge.

But when you tell me "I've talked to people, they were all bad to me, I've seen them be all bad to others as well"... this rings to me as the opposite of a complex set of reasonnings., something far more primal. Opposed to what I see for the future of reason.

Maybe people finally stopped being patient after years of abuse by the supposed victims of society.

Again, I think this is a little bit more complex than that. Through a materialist analysis, we can understand that the rise of reactionnarism and far rightism everywhere is just a result of a capitalism in crisis.

Racism and identirary politics were used the same way back in the past in order for capitalism to answer its own crisis and divide the working class to prevent the rise of communists. The bourgoisie literally gave the key to the power to Hitler the same way it is giving it to far rightists now everywhere. The center is now right, with racist moral panics. The jew became the muslim and migrants.

What happened once is happening again. This is an inevitable mechanism of the structure of capitalism.

We believe that people like Musk, Trump, the Labor, democrats, republicans, Macron, le Pen etc. etc. are ALL using your moral panics against you in order to "distract" you and prevent you from targetting the real problem : their capitalism.

So I'm here to give you the keys that you will need one day to rebel. I just hope it won't be too late.

you considered me a nazi anyway?

I never considered you as a nazi, but I have seen you flirt with far right many times. I told you that again and again.

Don't project your hate of white people on others

Why should I hate white people?

but people have always been and always will be tribal. People like to feel part of something.

Yes, but it doesn't have to end in wars and rejections of others.

Fuck you. History denier.

I see

Got it. Immigration is good when it helps the commie revolution.

It's good for a lot of reason, but for the revolution? Of course it is. "Workers of the world, unite!".

 

[AL sama]

even the most liberal muslims i know are vehemently against gay marriage being legal.

absolutely true unless they don't care about their religion like how I don't

 

[NAMELESS]

absolutely true unless they don't care about their religion like how I don't

 

[NAMELESS]

Why should I hate white people?

You tell me. You said you hate white people lol

It's good for a lot of reason, but for the revolution? Of course it is. "Workers of the world, unite!".

Too bad most of them don't have those feelings of kinship towards white European workers.

 

[Midnight Delight]

Through a materialist analysis, we can understand that the rise of reactionnarism and far rightism everywhere is just a result of a capitalism in crisis.

Marx legit wanted to ban the Irish from British factories to protect the rights of British workers btw

 

[Zenos7]

This is what lead for a non chicken to breed a chicken.

eeh this sounds like the strawman creationists use to argue against evolution because they think it works like pokemon

 

[Uncle Van]

Marx legit wanted to ban the Irish from British factories to protect the rights of British workers btw

Anti-Irish sentiment was strong throughout the west during the 1800s because of how many of them were migrating. Religious clashing and economic competition were the 2 biggest reasons.

 

[NAMELESS]

it works like pokemon

lmfao

 

[Zenos7]

"taqiyya" that depict all muslim as cunning

why all?

But i generally agree that this issue with taqiyya is blown way out of proportion. as if any other non-muslim cant also lie in your face if its beneficial to them. And its lowkey also a concept for the safety of minority denominations within the religion.