Versus Battle Hakuki vs Gakuki

[Phoenix]

not really ... he didn't "trap" him ... Gekishin CAME UP with that ... there is zero way for him to trap Gekishin other than mind control or something

Same way Kanki trapped Kochou. Making Gekishin use most of his force against the bulk of his army and spreading them out and then making Gekishin come to Riboku HQ. We have seen Riboku surprised by Ousen. His reaction to knowing Gekishin was coming was "..." and a compliment. He knew he can kill Gekishin if he comes to the HQ without much hassle cause he had Houken.

He did the same for Retsubi. He wasn't expecting Qin to attack from Retsubi but had a trap set just in case.

Riboku being the best strategist in the story is arguable ... I just don't consider him the best general

Well, I do think he is the best general in Kingdom. Ouki called him a general on an unprecedented level. Renpa called him the most dangerous man in China.

Their opinions are a million times more canon than us

yes ... like Han going from weakest state to the one who ruled china for over 400 years

and the general who did that is now hailed as the greatest general in chinses history

? I am not sure what you're saying here.

Kong Ming ... the man who is hailed as the smartest man on china history ... hailed Gakuki as the GOAT
so I'm not sure why you are mentioning history
cause Kong Ming opinion is 1 million times more canon than us

Who is Kong Ming? Why does his opinion matter more than the Shiji?

in the story ... no General has a feat comparable or even close to Gakuki ...

I agree.

 

[Red Admiral]

Same way Kanki trapped Kochou. Making Gekishin use most of his force against the bulk of his army and spreading them out and then making Gekishin come to Riboku HQ. We have seen Riboku surprised by Ousen. His reaction to knowing Gekishin was coming was "..." and a compliment. He knew he can kill Gekishin if he comes to the HQ without much hassle cause he had Houken.

He did the same for Retsubi. He wasn't expecting Qin to attack from Retsubi but had a trap set just in case.

you really are the first man who think that was a "trap"
Riboku was surprised by Ousen cause he was about to get fucked
but since he had Hou Ken with him he had no reason to fear
but as far as his plans go ... Gekishin bested him

Well, I do think he is the best general in Kingdom. Ouki called him a general on an unprecedented level. Renpa called him the most dangerous man in China.

Their opinions are a million times more canon than us

we are talking about history or characters within the story?
Kong Ming stands for history when you said history back Hakuki up ... then why now you turned to story?

Ouki calling Riboku feat something unprecedented is a big hype. but at the end his opinion
this is a story and characters opinion aren't fact

so again are we talking about story or history ... it's fine ... I just want to focus on 1 of them

Who is Kong Ming? Why does his opinion matter more than the Shiji?

Kong Ming Zhuge Liang ....
greatest strategist of china or maybe all times ...
one of the greatest scholars of art of war
and I'm talking about the historical Kong Ming Zhuge Liang
ignoring all legends around him and his achievements


Kingdom manga also mentioned his name and his statement about Gakuki

Spoiler

so when the greatest strategist of china history claimed on record and Kingdom manga both
that Gakuki is the GOAT
there is not much left to say
keep in mind he was bron 500 years after Kingdom era ... so he was aware of ALL of these people
and yet hailed Gakuki as the God

you feel strong enough to disagree with such man?
be my guest but Hakuki don't have a hype on this tier
while being undefeated is a massive massive massive hype itself
makes him 2nd and maybe top 10 of all china
tho Gakuki is undefeated as far as records go

I agree.

than we are in agreement

Gakuki has the biggest feat in the Kingdom Manga .... (that alone should be enough as far as this debate goes)
Gakuki has the biggest historical hype for being called a Military God by a GOAT

 

[Phoenix]

you really are the first man who think that was a "trap"
Riboku was surprised by Ousen cause he was about to get fucked
but since he had Hou Ken with him he had no reason to fear
but as far as his plans go ... Gekishin bested him

Me being the first to point out to you isn't an argument against my take. Luring people into a false sense of security was the bread and butter of Riboku as we know from his fight against Xiongnu and Qin.

If it wasn't Riboku's trap then why didn't he have a bigger force to take Riboku's HQ.
And if Riboku had nothing to fear then that would mean he didn't care if Gekishin found his HQ. So then that wouldn't be being bested.

we are talking about history or characters within the story?

Both... I don't see the problem with why we can't use both.

Kong Ming stands for history when you said history back Hakuki up ... then why now you turned to story?

I am talking about both

Ouki calling Riboku feat something unprecedented is a big hype. but at the end his opinion
this is a story and characters opinion aren't fact

As far as the story goes that statement is completely valid. And there is no opinion against this notion from anyone in the story thus far. If Renpa, Ouki, and the narrator say it. Then nothing will change that.

so again are we talking about story or history ... it's fine ... I just want to focus on 1 of them

Well, let's separate them. Since I am not the most knowledgeable in Chinese history I would like to discuss that but the story is more important as far as this forum goes. Anything above this line is talking about the story and anything below would be history. And maybe I can learn some history.

Kong Ming Zhuge Liang ....
greatest strategist of china or maybe all times ...
one of the greatest scholars of art of war
and I'm talking about the historical Kong Ming Zhuge Liang
ignoring all legends around him and his achievements

I see

so when the greatest strategist of china history claimed on record and Kingdom manga both
that Gakuki is the GOAT

Manga only says he is the GOAT of the east. Neither Qin, Zhao nor Chu is counted in that.
As for Kong Ming, can you share where he considers Gakuki the best? Would be much appreciated

keep in mind he was bron 500 years after Kingdom era ... so he was aware of ALL of these people
and yet hailed Gakuki as the God
you feel strong enough to disagree with such man?

So he had about as much information about Warring states as we do. But yeah I can't really disagree with him.
But the Shiji itself disagrees. He isn't counted in the best four generals of Warring states, why is that? The people who wrote the Shiji were actually there when it was happening so they would have more information than anyone past that point.

while being undefeated is a massive massive massive hype itself
makes him 2nd and maybe top 10 of all china
tho Gakuki is undefeated as far as records go

It is. Captured more than 73 cities, brought the Chu to its knees, reached its capital, and would have conquered it if not for Qin king. Undefeated. (Riboku was also undefeated right?)

Gakuki is not undefeated. He was defeated by a Qi general Tian Dan who recaptured 70 Qi cities in one fell swoop by defeating him after they lost them during the coalition

than we are in agreement

Gakuki has the biggest feat in the Kingdom Manga .... (that alone should be enough as far as this debate goes)

Yes, we are in agreement that that is the biggest feat in that period, but I don't think that's an end-all-be-all statement. And Hakuki's feats are actually pretty close to his. So that's where we disagree

 

[Red Admiral]

Gakuki is not undefeated. He was defeated by a Qi general Tian Dan who recaptured 70 Qi cities in one fell swoop by defeating him after the

as far as I know Gakuki wasn't defeated ... but his job was unfinish tho to political problems with Yan.

and Kong Ming lived like 2200 years ago ... so no ... he knew much more than us ... older record existed back in time that didn't last for us
we can't even compare their knowledge about that era to ours
so many poor books and records and libraries got destroyed in last 2200 years ... what a great shame
china had many schools for raising scholars. in that schools most the needed records existed

p.s
I did read the rest of your post ... do you think agreement is possible at this point or should we go on?
by that I mean do Hakuki dose have something that makes me go "that's it his feat and hype is obviously better"?
cause right now we are listing both of their hype and feat ...

 

[Phoenix]

as far as I know Gakuki wasn't defeated ... but his job was unfinish tho to political problems with Yan.

and Kong Ming lived like 2200 years ago ... so no ... he knew much more than us ... older record existed back in time that didn't last for us
we can't even compare their knowledge about that era to ours
so many poor books and records and libraries got destroyed in last 2200 years ... what a great shame
china had many schools for raising scholars. in that schools most the needed records existed

p.s
I did read the rest of your post ... do you think agreement is possible at this point or should we go on?
by that I mean do Hakuki dose have something that makes me go "that's it his feat and hype is obviously better"?
cause right now we are listing both of their hype and feat ...

I think we will have to agree to disagree.
But yes Gakuki was indeed defeated by a Qi general after the coalition.

And as I said the people who existed in Warring states time had way more info than Kong Ming and they didn't consider him among the top 4. But you definitely made me understand more about Gakuki
Had fun with the discussion :cheers:

 

[Red Admiral]

I think we will have to agree to disagree.
But yes Gakuki was indeed defeated by a Qi general after the coalition.

And as I said the people who existed in Warring states time had way more info than Kong Ming and they didn't consider him among the top 4. But you definitely made me understand more about Gakuki
Had fun with the discussion :cheers:

me too
p.s

I think you have a bit of misunderstanding about those 4 ... they are not top 4 of ENTIRE Warring States period (you can google it)

four greatest generals of the late Warring States period, along with Li Mu, Wang Jian, and Lian Po;

Gakuki was living in the Middle period of Warring State

 

[Phoenix]

me too
p.s

I think you have a bit of misunderstanding about those 4 ... they are not top 4 of ENTIRE Warring States period (you can google it)

four greatest generals of the late Warring States period, along with Li Mu, Wang Jian, and Lian Po;

Gakuki was living in the Middle period of Warring State

Makes sense

Is there any media about the Three kingdoms' time. I am interested

 

[Red Admiral]

Makes sense

Is there any media about the Three kingdoms' time. I am interested

there is a 2010 tv series
and there is a also a manga .. not sure about it's name ... revenge of time? ... not sure

but the 2010 tv series won every award and it's a epic and powerful tale
now it's not 100% loyal to the book and don't cover everything
but still one of the BEST tv shows I have ever seen
you can find it on youtube as well

 

[Phoenix]

there is a 2010 tv series
and there is a also a manga .. not sure about it's name ... revenge of time? ... not sure

but the 2010 tv series won every award and it's a epic and powerful tale
now it's not 100% loyal to the book and don't cover everything
but still one of the BEST tv shows I have ever seen
you can find it on youtube as well

Thanks, I think the name is ravages of time. I have heard about that but never tried it

 

[God Buggy]

Bump. Current thoughts?

@Fleet Admiral Lee Hung @Owl Ki @MarineHQ62 etc.

 

[RayanOO]

Same as always both are pinnacle generals and top 5 all time but I think in the manga Gakuki was a shade more hyped

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Hakuki. We know very little of him in Kingdom but historically the man was a freak. Over 100 victories for Qin, completely undefeated, the strongest of the Qin 6, historically a more regarded General than Gakuki.

 

[God Buggy]

Hakuki. We know very little of him in Kingdom but historically the man was a freak. Over 100 victories for Qin, completely undefeated, the strongest of the Qin 6, historically a more regarded General than Gakuki.

Where do you have Gakuki in your all time generals list?

 

[Lee Ba Shou]

Where do you have Gakuki in your all time generals list?

Within Kingdom? Maybe #3 behind Hakuki and the Godboku. Historically he’s not regarded as top 4.

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

Within Kingdom? Maybe #3 behind Hakuki and the Godboku. Historically he’s not regarded as top 4.

Honestly, I kinda like how Hara differentiates his own version of the manga compared to real life history. Like, Ousen (Wang Jian), Riboku (Li Mu), Hakuki (Bai Qi), and Renpa (Lian Po) is considered the four greatest generals of the Warring States period. While guys like Ouki (Wang Yi) and Gakuki (Yue Yi) is not as well known as the other four in real life. While in the manga, Ouki and Gakuki got some of the biggest shade in the series. Insane hypes, tons of achievements, etc.

 

[Blackbeard]

Hakuki always had the upper hand on Renpa as Renpa himself admitted.

I probably missed this, can you please post the panel where he said that?

 

[Phoenix]

I probably missed this, can you please post the panel where he said that?

I have been and am rather busy nowadays hence the late response

But what I wrote is from his comments when he faced Ousen. So you will find it there, he said he fell for Hakuki's traps constantly. So I inferred what I wrote from that.

 

[Shanks]

GakuKi was able stop powerhouse Qi's invasion in Yan by himself and that's what made him military god of that time. Qi at that time was able invade and captured some part of Zhao, Yan, Han, Wei and Chu. That was a massive feat for them at that moment nearly equals to what Qin did in King Sho's era. And GakuKi was able to defend that Qi's invasion. "Massive feat".

HakuKi is devil of China, who not only has record of remaining undefeated but also crushing four coalitions (of two or three states) invasion of other states. Invading than later capturing capital and 2nd biggest city of Chu (again a powerhouse at that time).

I'll go with HakuKi in this match-up and that's with high to extreme diff.

It's hard, we are looking at two absolute monsters. What is your top 5 all time generals?

As in story and historically :
HakuKi
GakuKi
RenPa
ShibaSaku
GekiShin
OuSen
Riboku/SHK

 

[Big Boiii]

Gakuki high-diff

"Gakuki of Yan that shook the very earth"
"military god"

Dude is treated as a diety. Such is not the case for Hakuki, who within the manga is leader of the Qin 6 and of the same/similar stature as Ouki. Having monster hype.. but nothing close to being treated as dieties.


From reading the posts it's pretty clear a lot of people have their perception of the two skewed by mainstream historical hype.

Post automatically merged: Jul 9, 2022

.. like Han going from weakest state to the one who ruled china for over 400 years

Han Dynasty is not the Han state.

 

[Shanks]

@God Buggy who do you think amongst GakuKi or SHK is better ? Even though most of the things about SHK is still unclear in manga.

GakuKi stopped Qi's invasion and somewhat removed Yan from difficult situation. Later on formed and lead coalition with every state except Qin against Qi and crushed it.

While SHK made unification plan in such a way where everyone knows that Qin is going to crush them sooner or later but still keeping everyone under check and begins crushing states. Secondly Qi failed in handling coalition while Qin succeeded in keeping everyone outside Northern pass (except Riboku). There's a big role EiSei as well along with SHK. But SHK did made a quite big feat here.

GakuKi might feel more capable coz of being on front lines all the time rather than in court. But i believe SHK is hiding everything about himself or his capabilities just because of his future plans (lol history spoilers).