Current Events Has Oda written himself into a corner with Big Mom?

#61
I don't know. I used to think for a long time that she'd have Elbaf because it'd be the perfect way to conclude her character regarding how much links she has with Elbaf. Not only in her youth but also later with the Loki marriage and her mastery of Elbaf sword techniques.
But Oda seems to go in the opposite way, completely sacrificing her character. At this point she may very well lose to Law and Kidd (which is one of the biggest asspulls in the series).
 

WalnutTax

A man, my son 🌊
‎‎‎
#62
Oda DID corner himself, but it's not what you think.

* Big Mom as a character is the representation of what happens when untapped potential is swept aside for gags and tomfoolery. I was one of the people who always supported Big Mom playing an important role narrative-wise, in Elbaf. There is so much built up for her there that it's essentially Chekhov's gun... but now it's becoming much clearer that Oda is willing to completely sacrifice her in Wano if needed.

* It's sad, her fruit is one of the most interesting and creative powers in the series, her moments where she is absolutely terrifying are great, and all the various themes that Oda has built up for her personality and method of running the empire are unique from other Emperors.

There is one thing you could do to kinda salvage this situation, but I am not Oda:

1) Have Kidd & Law actually beat her, build up on their teamwork dynamic and hit her where it hurts the most.
2) After all of this, allow Big Mom to sabotage Kaido (and betray) him as she originally intended. This could be anything from taking Kaido's poneglypth to finishing him off on the ground to simply ditching Wano and leaving him to his fate.
3) Do the Oda thing and have her featured in a THIRD arc to wrap up all her plotlines.

* No one is asking what will happen to Big Mom after/if she gets beaten. She's obviously not dying, so what will it be? CP0 taking her away? The BMP intervening? O-lin mode? Letting the Straw Hats escape her grasp a second time?

* This arc is supposed to showcase the downfall of the Beast Pirates & Kaido's regime, his era must come to an end. Big Mom is a minor antagonist and only here because a certain rubber contraceptive threw mud in her face and got away with it. As a ruthless businesswoman, Oda will definitely have Big Mom try to profit from the situation..however dire it becomes.

4) Big Mom's defeat in a closed off country does not mean that her career and character arc is over. There is 0 emotional attachment and weight of having her finished for the rest of the series here. She needs to suffer another major setback, not just to her reputation this time.

No one would be complaining about Big Mom if Oda didn't treat her the way he did. Most of us don't want to see her in a third arc both out of fatigue and frustration, but we may not have a choice. Oda could have avoided these issues if he either chose not to include Big Mom in this arc for that rocks remnants theme or better yet, put actual consistent effort into her character.
 
#63
I feel like Kid and Law will do something to her that makes it impossible to continue fighting the alliance. Not necessarily defeat her though. She's the one yonko who I think will continue reigning even after Luffy is PK. Kaido is evil he will be defeated and possibly jailed/killed. Shanks will be used as BB stepping stone and BB will eventually fall just like Xebec.
 
#64
Here’s why I don’t like Kid and Law beating Big Mom

1. I have no reason to care about this fight.

For a villain who has been in the series as long as Big Mom has, who has the importance that Big Mom has, you’d think her final fight where she is defeated once and for all would be a well-built up affair that takes all her previously established plotlines and ties them up nicely.

Instead she’s fighting two people she has had next to nothing to do with. Look at Big Mom’s story up until now, what’s important? She’s got her grudge with Luffy that was built up from Fishman Island. That’s why she’s even on Wano, to get him after what he did on WCI. She’s also got reason to hold various grudges against his crew- Nami stole Zeus, Sanji screwed the wedding, Jinbei betrayed her, Brook embarrassed her. And with Sanji, we also have that he cooked her amazing cake, a plot very few liked, but was important.

What else when you think of Big Mom? The Giants and Mother Carmel. Very important in making her what she is in the present day, doesn’t have anything to do with Kid or Law. Her family, Germa 66, Capone, Struesen, her desire to have all the species of the world in harmony the same. Her relationship with Kaido, that is important, but they’ve split up right now. Where do Kid and Law fit into this? Where’s the thematic relevance? It’s a bare minimum of “old vs new” with characters that never actually interacted.

Then you can turn it the other way and look at Kid and Law. What’s important to them?

Kid has far more buildup with Kaido. Kaido crushed his fledging alliance. Kid’s two “allies”, Apoo and Hawkins, ended up on Kaido’s side. Kaido beat up Kid and put him in prison. He gave Killer over to Orochi who forced him to eat a SMILE. The two of them got tortured by Kaido’s man, Queen. We have an actual reason, that we have seen on-screen, to expect Kid to want to fight and beat Kaido.

He’s also got a stronger grudge against Shanks. Less seen, but we know he was aiming his alliance to take him down, and that someone in Shanks’s crew , if not Shanks himself, crippled him.

What’s his relationship with Big Mom? A couple of sank ships and an encounter with a SC. That’s it. We can pretend that this is great setup for the two to fight, but be honest, it isn’t. It’s like three panels worth spread out over hundreds of chapters, three panels that were never especially focused on or important. I don’t think Kid even commented on her being in Udon. His focus on the leadup to the rooftop was all on Kaido. On the rooftop, the two never especially focused on each other. Kid and Big Mom’s grudge has been an extremely minor, background plotpoint.

As for Law, there’s just zero buildup. Plain and simple. His grudge was against Doffy, he’s was setup in the alliance to go after Kaido, there’s nothing linking him to Big Mom other than that. She’s just a strong opponent that has been papped in his way to finding out more about the true history.

I just don’t think you can read One Piece, chapters 650-1010, and think “ah, this is obvious setup for Kid and Law to beat Big Mom.” It just isn’t. It doesn’t have anything to do with Big Mom’s role as a villain throughout the series, it’s just popping three expendable characters to the side because the main fight is with Kaido. It’s another example of Oda’s terrible treatment of Big Mom. Just seems like he wants to get rid of her and he’s thought “Law and Kid are popular, I’ll give her to them and at least fans will like it.” Not this fan, at any rate.

2. It makes her look terrible compared to WB/Kaido.

Pretty simple. What it took to take down WB?

Old age. Sickness. A betrayal by Squard. Fighting all three Admirals. Attacked by a horde of Marines. A decision to give his life to allow his men to escape. Being ganged up by eight of the Blackbeard Pirates, the evil counterpart to the Strawhats. Hundreds of bullet wounds, cannonball, stabbings, etc, etc, but no cowards wounds.

What is it taking to take down Kaido?

A plot going back hundreds of chapters to cripple his business. An ambush when he least expecting it. PTSD from Oden. The Nine Red Scabbards. The five leaders of the Next Gen. A fight with his daughter. Being bitten by adult Dragon Momo. Another fight with Luffy. Who knows what next.

What is it taking to take down Big Mom?

Just Kid and Law. Two characters entirely divorced from WCI and FI, where she was built up, and who were just two of the sixteen characters that have taken on Kaido. And nobody try to tell me that Marco or Jinbei/Robin hurt her prior to this, they didn’t.

Now, fair enough. I will say one thing. Law‘s powers are a good fit for fighting Big Mom. That, at least, makes sense, he is bypassing her freakish hard skin.

But that is offset by the fact that Kid somehow gave her critical damage by hitting her with some fucking metal beams.

Metal. Beams.

What the actual fuck? How does this compute with the iron balloon woman, basically impervious to most attacks? Why is this a matchup that is hurting Big Mom? Seriously, someone explain that to me.

It’s just an all-round bad fight, because Oda’s doesn’t want to spend any more real time on Big Mom.
 
#65
I want Kidd and Law to win so that I can finally see BM going all out
:finally::finally::finally:
I don't really think Big Mom will be a main villain of another arc , People are really underestimating how close we are to endgame Luffy's bounty post Wano will be ~5billion ,
Going from 2 top tiers being a threat to only one would be boring that's why next saga will involve all the top tiers and it will make Marineford look cute
 
#66
Meme apologists still dream about Meme being a major antagonist post Wano when Oda is rushing the fuck out of Wano fights.


Injured Kid and Law already forced her to sacrifice part of her lifespan...
 
#68
Haki is not the only factor, even tho a lot of people like you think so
Can you become a top tier without haki? The answer is no. Can you become a top tier without a DF? The answer is yes. Hence, the case is closed, haki is everything in one piece world.
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Yes,they can.We literally saw Law doing internal damage to Kaido and Big Mom.
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Tact,Injection shot,Counter Shock and Gamma knife can bypass haki superiority.The only moves that require haki to be at the same level is shambles and his amputation.
So one ability requires haki but no the other? What a fucking coincidence is that!
 

Finalbeta

Hero of Albion
#69
I think he should have separated the two so that Big Mom's defeat could look better and perhaps involving Luffy as well giving dignity to their past portrayal.
 
#70
Can you become a top tier without haki? The answer is no. Can you become a top tier without a DF? The answer is yes. Hence, the case is closed, haki is everything in one piece world.
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So one ability requires haki but no the other? What a fucking coincidence is that!
Is it really that hard for you to comprehend that a stronger technique, like shock wille, is more difficult to negate than simple teleportation?
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But that is offset by the fact that Kid somehow gave her critical damage by hitting her with some fucking metal beams.

Metal. Beams.

What the actual fuck? How does this compute with the iron balloon woman, basically impervious to most attacks? Why is this a matchup that is hurting Big Mom? Seriously, someone explain that to me.
.
because punk crash isn’t “most attacks”. It’s the awakened power of the magnet magnet fruit.

she wasn’t just hit with metal beams, she was crushed by tons of magnetic pressure
 
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#71
Here’s why I don’t like Kid and Law beating Big Mom

1. I have no reason to care about this fight.

For a villain who has been in the series as long as Big Mom has, who has the importance that Big Mom has, you’d think her final fight where she is defeated once and for all would be a well-built up affair that takes all her previously established plotlines and ties them up nicely.

Instead she’s fighting two people she has had next to nothing to do with. Look at Big Mom’s story up until now, what’s important? She’s got her grudge with Luffy that was built up from Fishman Island. That’s why she’s even on Wano, to get him after what he did on WCI. She’s also got reason to hold various grudges against his crew- Nami stole Zeus, Sanji screwed the wedding, Jinbei betrayed her, Brook embarrassed her. And with Sanji, we also have that he cooked her amazing cake, a plot very few liked, but was important.

What else when you think of Big Mom? The Giants and Mother Carmel. Very important in making her what she is in the present day, doesn’t have anything to do with Kid or Law. Her family, Germa 66, Capone, Struesen, her desire to have all the species of the world in harmony the same. Her relationship with Kaido, that is important, but they’ve split up right now. Where do Kid and Law fit into this? Where’s the thematic relevance? It’s a bare minimum of “old vs new” with characters that never actually interacted.

Then you can turn it the other way and look at Kid and Law. What’s important to them?

Kid has far more buildup with Kaido. Kaido crushed his fledging alliance. Kid’s two “allies”, Apoo and Hawkins, ended up on Kaido’s side. Kaido beat up Kid and put him in prison. He gave Killer over to Orochi who forced him to eat a SMILE. The two of them got tortured by Kaido’s man, Queen. We have an actual reason, that we have seen on-screen, to expect Kid to want to fight and beat Kaido.

He’s also got a stronger grudge against Shanks. Less seen, but we know he was aiming his alliance to take him down, and that someone in Shanks’s crew , if not Shanks himself, crippled him.

What’s his relationship with Big Mom? A couple of sank ships and an encounter with a SC. That’s it. We can pretend that this is great setup for the two to fight, but be honest, it isn’t. It’s like three panels worth spread out over hundreds of chapters, three panels that were never especially focused on or important. I don’t think Kid even commented on her being in Udon. His focus on the leadup to the rooftop was all on Kaido. On the rooftop, the two never especially focused on each other. Kid and Big Mom’s grudge has been an extremely minor, background plotpoint.

As for Law, there’s just zero buildup. Plain and simple. His grudge was against Doffy, he’s was setup in the alliance to go after Kaido, there’s nothing linking him to Big Mom other than that. She’s just a strong opponent that has been papped in his way to finding out more about the true history.

I just don’t think you can read One Piece, chapters 650-1010, and think “ah, this is obvious setup for Kid and Law to beat Big Mom.” It just isn’t. It doesn’t have anything to do with Big Mom’s role as a villain throughout the series, it’s just popping three expendable characters to the side because the main fight is with Kaido. It’s another example of Oda’s terrible treatment of Big Mom. Just seems like he wants to get rid of her and he’s thought “Law and Kid are popular, I’ll give her to them and at least fans will like it.” Not this fan, at any rate.

2. It makes her look terrible compared to WB/Kaido.

Pretty simple. What it took to take down WB?

Old age. Sickness. A betrayal by Squard. Fighting all three Admirals. Attacked by a horde of Marines. A decision to give his life to allow his men to escape. Being ganged up by eight of the Blackbeard Pirates, the evil counterpart to the Strawhats. Hundreds of bullet wounds, cannonball, stabbings, etc, etc, but no cowards wounds.

What is it taking to take down Kaido?

A plot going back hundreds of chapters to cripple his business. An ambush when he least expecting it. PTSD from Oden. The Nine Red Scabbards. The five leaders of the Next Gen. A fight with his daughter. Being bitten by adult Dragon Momo. Another fight with Luffy. Who knows what next.

What is it taking to take down Big Mom?

Just Kid and Law. Two characters entirely divorced from WCI and FI, where she was built up, and who were just two of the sixteen characters that have taken on Kaido. And nobody try to tell me that Marco or Jinbei/Robin hurt her prior to this, they didn’t.

Now, fair enough. I will say one thing. Law‘s powers are a good fit for fighting Big Mom. That, at least, makes sense, he is bypassing her freakish hard skin.

But that is offset by the fact that Kid somehow gave her critical damage by hitting her with some fucking metal beams.

Metal. Beams.

What the actual fuck? How does this compute with the iron balloon woman, basically impervious to most attacks? Why is this a matchup that is hurting Big Mom? Seriously, someone explain that to me.

It’s just an all-round bad fight, because Oda’s doesn’t want to spend any more real time on Big Mom.
This post right here! It’s lazy writing.
 
#72
thinking BM with all the build up to her arc will lose just because Kidd need a win is very misguided argument, especially when we don't know anything about Kidd

the norm that we can witness right now is Kidd is the guy who loses to Yonko

Oda want him to have a grudge against all of them , also he want to reveal his past in this fight Wich probably is related to Big Mom somehow, like being connected to another Rocks member (Captain John)

Captain John carries the same style of swords as Shanks, while being known to be crazy strong and serious, and he have a plot connected to buggy who's in return connected to Shanks, who's connected to Kidd, yes a connection between Shanks and Captain John and Shanks just based on Buggy and their swords is a stretch, but I don't think we need a strong evidence to conclude the relationship

we know Oda with characters who appear from time to time before the time to reveal everything about them, he tend to make every appearance from them count , just revisit all Law scenes before Dressrosa, all included a hint at his past and role

the purpose of this fight is to reveal these connections since BM knows everything and she also interested in treasures and for Kidd to lose to another Yonko

people will say that will make him look bad compared to Luffy, we don't know how Luffy will defeat Kaido if he even do it

just my two cents on what Oda is trying to do on the Kidd side
 
#74
All further expectations for Big Mom should have died the moment Perospero got taken out.

Perospero's inclusion at first seemed to play into the plotline of betrayal, it looked like he would play a part in either Marco's defeat or weakening the Beast Pirates due to his hatred for them. Yet what was the conclusion for all that? He got taken out by a character he had never even met before having accomplished nothing further.

The writing is on the wall for Big Mom. Any threat she poses after Wano is empty. Any relevance she could have still works if she is defeated, even better than if she weren't because Oda wants to get to the end. The only thing worth discussing now is exactly how she will be taken out of the picture. Is it O-lin...a Knock out....outside interference? Pick your poison.
 
#75
He got taken out by a character he had never even met before having accomplished nothing further.
:josad:
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Poor BMPs, they have been written so badly in wano.
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Only thing I liked was PerosPero telling minks off to eat grass :cheers:
 
#79
The main issue here is that Oda's symbolic formula when it comes to taking down villains, is to do it in a manner where it is showcased in front of the people they have been oppressing, to signify the rebirth of that Country. In Big Mom's case, that would be the people of her own Country, whom she charges a soul tax on.

Even if he mirrored Thriller Bark, and she gets defeated, and all the souls she's taken over the years end up going back to their original people, it still doesn't fit the bill, because on Thriller Bark, there was still a massive audience of people there to witness Moriah's defeat, who had their shadows taken.

So Big Mom being defeated on Wano doesn't make any sense. There is literally nobody there to witness their freedom coming to fruition first hand. That drastically reduces the emotional impact of the act of having the Big Mom taken down once and for all. Oda doesn't do that, because he likes the defeat of the main villain to have these huge emotional climaxes.

Elbaf itself would fit the bill, because Big Mom has had bad blood with the Giants for years. So it's well within the confines of the story that she has taken a couple hundred/thousands of years of souls from the Giants.

Most people want her defeated because they just want her out of the picture. But Oda needs to conclude her story in a satisfying manner no matter what. Will he reduce her down to a secondary antagonist and have her taken out in such a way that goes against how he concludes the character arc for every other major villain? I personally doubt it, but you never know.
I agree with you, but also at the same time, would her defeat at Elbaf really be climactic when we already fought Kaido who is a more formidabble foe than her? Also I really doubt most people want Big Mom for 3 arcs in a row which is like 5+ years, hence why I question if Oda has a BM problem.
 
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