Break Week How many Dorikis had Kaku after he ate his df?
- Thread starter Roronoa-sama
- Start date
Because at the end of the day it doesn't matter since all three of them had extra abilities so the hierarchy stayed pretty much the same. Never Oda intended to challenge his explicit depiction of power gaps and only the most overthinking raders will fall into such gymnastics.
Literally the only reason why doriki is a thing is for the reader to get "Lucci > Kaku >= Jabra". It served no other narrative purpose nor was brought up again; therefore, it was for the people to understand that Lucci was significantly above any other CP9 member and also that Kaku was way closer to Jabra than he was to Lucci; which is exactly what the average reader understood while power-level junkies still break their minds over such a simple concept.
This all derives into the conveyed message that the gap between Luffy and Zoro is significantly bigger than that between Zoro and Sanji, which is what discomforts certain people here; they just can't accept that Oda depicted Lucci way stronger than Kaku and Kaku only slightly stronger than Jabra because that also translates to their adversaries in Enies Lobby. Simple as that.
Literally the only reason why doriki is a thing is for the reader to get "Lucci > Kaku >= Jabra". It served no other narrative purpose nor was brought up again; therefore, it was for the people to understand that Lucci was significantly above any other CP9 member and also that Kaku was way closer to Jabra than he was to Lucci; which is exactly what the average reader understood while power-level junkies still break their minds over such a simple concept.
This all derives into the conveyed message that the gap between Luffy and Zoro is significantly bigger than that between Zoro and Sanji, which is what discomforts certain people here; they just can't accept that Oda depicted Lucci way stronger than Kaku and Kaku only slightly stronger than Jabra because that also translates to their adversaries in Enies Lobby. Simple as that.
Yes, Sanji will kick harder than Zoro. If Sanji can't even kick harder than Zoro, when Zoro don't even use his legs in combat for offensive purposes (swords all involve hands only), then Sanji is complete fodder to Zoro.
The point simply is that if Kaku can punch a bit harder than Jyabura, the difference will be quite significant when swordsmanship is involved.
2200 vs 2180 doesn't say the whole story like you guys wish it did.
Look at the aftermath of Kaku fight, vs Jyabura. Kaku ended up destroying that massive tower.
Then why did Oda specifically mention that doriki isn't the entire thing in actual battle?
Your entire "narrative purpose" argument goes right out of the window when Oda himself outright acknowledged (through Jyabura) that it's just physical power and nothing more.
It's narrative purpose was to hype up Lucci, yes. That was the main point, to establish Lucci as the legendary CP9 member
If Oda wanted to convey that Zoro is closer to Sanji than Luffy as you guys want, then why does Oda portray Zoro with Luffy just as much as he does with Sanji, if not more times? Why did Oda have Luffy and Zoro essentially tie in Wiskey peak?
Clearly Oda wants the portrayal to go both ways would be the unbiased conclusion, Zoro gets portrayed with Luffy and Sanji. But you guys won't acknowledge the former cause agendas.
The point simply is that if Kaku can punch a bit harder than Jyabura, the difference will be quite significant when swordsmanship is involved.
2200 vs 2180 doesn't say the whole story like you guys wish it did.
Look at the aftermath of Kaku fight, vs Jyabura. Kaku ended up destroying that massive tower.
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Then why did Oda specifically mention that doriki isn't the entire thing in actual battle?
Your entire "narrative purpose" argument goes right out of the window when Oda himself outright acknowledged (through Jyabura) that it's just physical power and nothing more.
It's narrative purpose was to hype up Lucci, yes. That was the main point, to establish Lucci as the legendary CP9 member
If Oda wanted to convey that Zoro is closer to Sanji than Luffy as you guys want, then why does Oda portray Zoro with Luffy just as much as he does with Sanji, if not more times? Why did Oda have Luffy and Zoro essentially tie in Wiskey peak?
Clearly Oda wants the portrayal to go both ways would be the unbiased conclusion, Zoro gets portrayed with Luffy and Sanji. But you guys won't acknowledge the former cause agendas.
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Zoan doesn't increase base stats. Zoans are known to be able to increase stats exponentially after training. As explained in the canon
Simply eating it does not improve your physical strength. Only once you've trained with the df or you activated the zoan powers do you get an increase.
Kakus doriki is 2200. Doriki does not measure devil fruit ability. So until kaku trains with his devil fruit... his doriki remained 2200. Same for any other zoan user.
Zoan fruits are stated to boost your gains from training significantly.
Simply eating it does not improve your physical strength. Only once you've trained with the df or you activated the zoan powers do you get an increase.
Kakus doriki is 2200. Doriki does not measure devil fruit ability. So until kaku trains with his devil fruit... his doriki remained 2200. Same for any other zoan user.
Zoan fruits are stated to boost your gains from training significantly.
Seriously, the giraffe excels at physical power. Lucci stands no chance at Rankyaku and Shigan against Kaku.
Other Rokushikis dont really benefit from physical strength aside from Tekkai which Kaku didnt really rely on.
The only thing in Lucci's favor is Rokuogan, which Kaku doesnt have and that one doesnt rely on Doriki either.
Lucci's leopard excels at speed. Kaku was the king of physical strength but Oda left that for us to figure out.
Other Rokushikis dont really benefit from physical strength aside from Tekkai which Kaku didnt really rely on.
The only thing in Lucci's favor is Rokuogan, which Kaku doesnt have and that one doesnt rely on Doriki either.
Lucci's leopard excels at speed. Kaku was the king of physical strength but Oda left that for us to figure out.
DF aside, Lucci's Doriki was almost twice as high as Kaku's. Even if the Giraffe was stronger, that wouldn't make up for such a large difference in the first place. It would mean the Doriki boost of the Giraffe fruit is 2000 Doriki above the Doriki Lucci's fruit would give, which isn't the case.
And while the Giraffe is stronger in full Zoan form, in terms of Hybrid it doesn't really matter, since in Hybrid Lucci can turn into a bulky 5 meter tall human-leopard hybrid, while Kaku's hybrid is mostly just Zoan on two legs. On top of a carnivorous Zoan giving Lucci more bloodlust.
Rangyaku? Lucci's wasn't far off, given how he destroyed the tower they were in completely with one Rankyaku. Shigan? I don't see how the Giraffe's dull claws benefit Kaku's shigan (which he apparently didn't even use against Zoro), while Lucci's Zoan gives him sharp claws, allowing him to thrust through bodies with ease:
With Lucci using different advanced forms of Shigan, even a long range one against Luffy, I don't see why you would give Kaku the upper hand.
As for Tekkai, both used it, Kaku used it too on his neck and when protecting himself from his own Rankyaku rain. Lucci's Tekkai is superior. He even showed advanced variants of it, like returning the force of the attack dealt to him.
And obviously, Rokuougan also depends on Doriki, which is just your overall power level. So with a highr Doriki, the damage output will be even higher. Interestingly enough, Lucci said that Rokuougan is accessible to those who mastered the 6 other arts "to the extreme". So in this context, you may argue that Kaku slightly excelled in Rangyaku due to it being his proficiency, while Lucci outclassed Kaku in the rest.
And while the Giraffe is stronger in full Zoan form, in terms of Hybrid it doesn't really matter, since in Hybrid Lucci can turn into a bulky 5 meter tall human-leopard hybrid, while Kaku's hybrid is mostly just Zoan on two legs. On top of a carnivorous Zoan giving Lucci more bloodlust.
Rangyaku? Lucci's wasn't far off, given how he destroyed the tower they were in completely with one Rankyaku. Shigan? I don't see how the Giraffe's dull claws benefit Kaku's shigan (which he apparently didn't even use against Zoro), while Lucci's Zoan gives him sharp claws, allowing him to thrust through bodies with ease:
With Lucci using different advanced forms of Shigan, even a long range one against Luffy, I don't see why you would give Kaku the upper hand.
As for Tekkai, both used it, Kaku used it too on his neck and when protecting himself from his own Rankyaku rain. Lucci's Tekkai is superior. He even showed advanced variants of it, like returning the force of the attack dealt to him.
And obviously, Rokuougan also depends on Doriki, which is just your overall power level. So with a highr Doriki, the damage output will be even higher. Interestingly enough, Lucci said that Rokuougan is accessible to those who mastered the 6 other arts "to the extreme". So in this context, you may argue that Kaku slightly excelled in Rangyaku due to it being his proficiency, while Lucci outclassed Kaku in the rest.
DF aside, Lucci's Doriki was almost twice as high as Kaku's. Even if the Giraffe was stronger, that wouldn't make up for such a large difference in the first place. It would mean the Doriki boost of the Giraffe fruit is 2000 Doriki above the Doriki Lucci's fruit would give, which isn't the case.
And while the Giraffe is stronger in full Zoan form, in terms of Hybrid it doesn't really matter, since in Hybrid Lucci can turn into a bulky 5 meter tall human-leopard hybrid, while Kaku's hybrid is mostly just Zoan on two legs. On top of a carnivorous Zoan giving Lucci more bloodlust.
Rangyaku? Lucci's wasn't far off, given how he destroyed the tower they were in completely with one Rankyaku. Shigan? I don't see how the Giraffe's dull claws benefit Kaku's shigan (which he apparently didn't even use against Zoro), while Lucci's Zoan gives him sharp claws, allowing him to thrust through bodies with ease:
With Lucci using different advanced forms of Shigan, even a long range one against Luffy, I don't see why you would give Kaku the upper hand.
As for Tekkai, both used it, Kaku used it too on his neck and when protecting himself from his own Rankyaku rain. Lucci's Tekkai is superior. He even showed advanced variants of it, like returning the force of the attack dealt to him.
And obviously, Rokuougan also depends on Doriki, which is just your overall power level. So with a highr Doriki, the damage output will be even higher. Interestingly enough, Lucci said that Rokuougan is accessible to those who mastered the 6 other arts "to the extreme". So in this context, you may argue that Kaku slightly excelled in Rangyaku due to it being his proficiency, while Lucci outclassed Kaku in the rest.
And while the Giraffe is stronger in full Zoan form, in terms of Hybrid it doesn't really matter, since in Hybrid Lucci can turn into a bulky 5 meter tall human-leopard hybrid, while Kaku's hybrid is mostly just Zoan on two legs. On top of a carnivorous Zoan giving Lucci more bloodlust.
Rangyaku? Lucci's wasn't far off, given how he destroyed the tower they were in completely with one Rankyaku. Shigan? I don't see how the Giraffe's dull claws benefit Kaku's shigan (which he apparently didn't even use against Zoro), while Lucci's Zoan gives him sharp claws, allowing him to thrust through bodies with ease:
With Lucci using different advanced forms of Shigan, even a long range one against Luffy, I don't see why you would give Kaku the upper hand.
As for Tekkai, both used it, Kaku used it too on his neck and when protecting himself from his own Rankyaku rain. Lucci's Tekkai is superior. He even showed advanced variants of it, like returning the force of the attack dealt to him.
And obviously, Rokuougan also depends on Doriki, which is just your overall power level. So with a highr Doriki, the damage output will be even higher. Interestingly enough, Lucci said that Rokuougan is accessible to those who mastered the 6 other arts "to the extreme". So in this context, you may argue that Kaku slightly excelled in Rangyaku due to it being his proficiency, while Lucci outclassed Kaku in the rest.
When comparing their hybrids, Kaku is stronger physically and that's all that matters.
The starting doriki numbers measured in base we can throw into the bin because neither fought in base form.
Carnivorous bloodlust doesnt translate into anything measurable. Lucci's bulky form still loses to Kaku's Shigan and Rankyaku.
Kaku has the supreme Shigan form called Bigan. The nose pistol that we also saw on Egghead. It is incomparable to whatever Lucci uses.
Remember that Zoro had to use Gorilla arms to overpower it back then. Its power even pushed back the current Zoro.
No version of Lucci's Shigan can compete with Kaku's Bigan. Kaku rules Shigan and Rankyaku, those are his signature moves.
Lucci's signature are Rokuogan and special Geppo/Soru, whatever it was when he is moving like lightning...
Lucci tanked everything with Tekkai while Kaku never wanted to tank Zoro's high end attacks with it. He knew it wouldnt work.
How does Rokuogan depend on Doriki when it doesnt use physical strength? It is just a shockwave or rather ID haki, I guess...
Paper art and Geppo are nearly useless. Soru is useful for Lucci, useless for Kaku.
Rankyaku and Shigan are Kaku's thing. Rokuogan is Lucci's thing.
Tekkai useful for Lucci, useless for Kaku, due to Zoro's too high firepower.
If Lucci was facing Zoro, Tekkai would be useless for him as well.
So, we can conclude that only Rankyaku, Shigan and Rokuogan really matter against Zoro. And Kaku rules 2 out of 3.
Lucci stated that after eating a zoan the more you train the stronger you get, i doubt just after eating the DF Kaku would have increased his stats.
maybe his base doriki went up because he was a DF user but even if it did it shouldnt have been by a substantial amount as it took Lucci a few years from being comparable to being twice as strong as him
maybe his base doriki went up because he was a DF user but even if it did it shouldnt have been by a substantial amount as it took Lucci a few years from being comparable to being twice as strong as him
Yes i agree in his hybrid form his power was great but so was the other zoan users, my point is in their base Lucci and Jabra were already boosted because they had zoan powers, with Lucci's power allowing him to become 2 times stronger than Jabra when they were close in power before, so for Kaku's base to also exponentially improve i doubt it would have given he had just eaten that zoan just before he fought Zoro.
But since he was given 2 years with the power and has trained it, its no wonder current Kaku and Lucci are now comparable and given that Kaku is a prodigy he was able to awaken his power in a short amount of time, he should currently be as strong if not stronger than Lucci.
just eating a zoan boosts your physical stats, thats why the 2200 is questionable since Kaku eat a zoan after, the thing is everyone think Kaku somehow grew exponentially from it and i highly doubt it since Lucci said you need to train and the zoan power will boost your strength after and since Kaku didnt train his doriki should have increased a little if at all
But since he was given 2 years with the power and has trained it, its no wonder current Kaku and Lucci are now comparable and given that Kaku is a prodigy he was able to awaken his power in a short amount of time, he should currently be as strong if not stronger than Lucci.
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just eating a zoan boosts your physical stats, thats why the 2200 is questionable since Kaku eat a zoan after, the thing is everyone think Kaku somehow grew exponentially from it and i highly doubt it since Lucci said you need to train and the zoan power will boost your strength after and since Kaku didnt train his doriki should have increased a little if at all
Hmm interesting , I never thought abt this
Kaku’s doriki should sky rocket after he ate his devil fruit
The proper way of scaling these characters is what we got today
Masked agents - kaku and lucci
Without mask - jabra
this shows that kaku and lucci are on a completely different level than jabra
Even kaku without his swords is > jabra if u remove devil fruit power
Kaku’s doriki should sky rocket after he ate his devil fruit
The proper way of scaling these characters is what we got today
Masked agents - kaku and lucci
Without mask - jabra
this shows that kaku and lucci are on a completely different level than jabra
Even kaku without his swords is > jabra if u remove devil fruit power
That's irrelevant because the doriki system was never relevant, all we know is that a swordsman without a base amped by a zoan fruit punches harder than a veteran with a zoan, as if punching a bag decided who wins in a fight.
We all saw who had the most power and it wasn't close, we also saw that Zoro fought Kaku and Jabra at the same time and Jabra made absolutely no difference.
We all saw who had the most power and it wasn't close, we also saw that Zoro fought Kaku and Jabra at the same time and Jabra made absolutely no difference.