Versus Battle Is Pain vs Itachi a debate?

[soheilhazrat]

Strong eyes such as Sharingan can see through any type of Genjutsu, it literally says "any illusion"

Itachi's Genjutsu feats >>>>> Toad Genjutsu, so if Pain got negged by their Genjutsu which he did, then it's not debatable that Itachi could do the same.

Can you explain why deidara could counter sharingan genjutsu with his eyes then? Any strong eye that is trained enough can see through visual genjutsu.

 

[SkySanji]

Can you explain why deidara could counter sharingan genjutsu with his eyes then? Any strong eye that is trained enough can see through visual genjutsu.

Deidara trained his eye to specifically counter Itachi's Genjutsu, what does this have to do with Pain or the Rinnegan?

 

[Roo]

Can you explain why deidara could counter sharingan genjutsu with his eyes then? Any strong eye that is trained enough can see through visual genjutsu.

this has nothing to do with sound illusions, which Sasuke and Itachi see through unlike Nagato

 

[SkySanji]

We're told "probably" you keep ignoring that Sasuke himself doesn't know.

Again, we have seen what? 4 Rinnegan users in combat? and only 1 has shown that. Coincidentally that is also the guy who has the upgraded Rinnegan

Exactly, how would Sasuke even know how other Rinnegan would fare anyway? The "probably" is there for good reason.

 

[soheilhazrat]

Deidara trained his eye to specifically counter Itachi's Genjutsu, what does this have to do with Pain or the Rinnegan?

His eyes are literally rinnegan lmfao
He doesnt need training, those are eyes of gods

 

[comrade]

They saw through the Genjutsu completely fine though, Sharingan doesn't let you ignore the Genjutsu, it allows you to see through it and thus counter it, which they did.

Well, you could indeed argue that seeing through Genjutsu is a Sharingan specific trait (the "all seeing eye") that does not get inherited by the Rinnegan, hence Madara had to switch back, with Sasuke's Sharinnegan being an exception. That may also be the reason Nagato could never use Sharingan specific abilities, like Madara's Susanoo or Genjutsu.

If Tsukuyomi works on Nagato, he's in big trouble, since I believe that Pain's shared vision would just make it worse, since this linked vision is, ultimately, linked to Nagato's own vision.

Can you explain why deidara could counter sharingan genjutsu with his eyes then? Any strong eye that is trained enough can see through visual genjutsu.

If Deidara is lucky, his eye is good enough to help against the usual Sharingan Genjutsu. Tsukuyomi would obviously be too much to handle.

 

[SkySanji]

His eyes are literally rinnegan lmfao
He doesnt need training, those are eyes of gods

So no need for evidence, just say he can do it for the sake of it?

Fact is that Pain has never once resisted a Genjutsu, on the contrary, the time he was exposed to one it ended up negging half his bodies

 

[Gol D. Roger]

We're told "probably" you keep ignoring that Sasuke himself doesn't know.

Again, we have seen what? 4 Rinnegan users in combat? and only 1 has shown that. Coincidentally that is also the guy who has the upgraded Rinnegan

It's not that he doesn't know, it's what he deduced. And again, we're not given another reason as to how he opposed it besides Rinnegan, so there's no argument there. Yeah, we have to see all of them doing it for us and confirm it works for all of them when the guy who did it literally deduced they can. Of course, we know the ability better than the guy using it.

 

[Roo]

It's not that he doesn't know, it's what he deduced. And again, we're not given another reason as to how he opposed it besides Rinnegan, so there's no argument there. Yeah, we have to see all of them doing it for us and confirm it works for all of them when the guy who did it literally deduced they can. Of course, we know the ability better than the guy using it.

that is not a deduction, that is an assumption and he might be wrong. Kishi himself likely didn't want to dwell on why as the point was to get Team 7 alone and fire the IT chekovs gun'

This is a deduction, it is stated with certainty

Not "Well.. it's probably one jutsu!"

Yes, if you want to give abilities to other Rinnegans we have to at least have proof of it. Or else I'll start saying Nagato and Obito can use Ringo clones in every discussion

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Man, Naruto discourse blows Op debates out the water. No mention of shoddy ass portrayal, just pure mechanics of the verse being discussed.

 

[Gol D. Roger]

that is not a deduction, that is an assumption and he might be wrong. Kishi himself likely didn't want to dwell on why as the point was to get Team 7 alone and fire the IT chekovs gun'

This is a deduction, it is stated with certainty

Not "Well.. it's probably one jutsu!"

Yes, if you want to give abilities to other Rinnegans we have to at least have proof of it. Or else I'll start saying Nagato and Obito can use Ringo clones in every discussion

He might be wrong because? No reason other than you feeling like he might be wrong. Once again, Zetsu too confirmed it was the work of Rinnegan. We're not making any progress.

 

[Roo]

"He might be wrong because? No reason other than you feeling like he might be wrong. Once again, Zetsu too confirmed it was the work of Rinnegan. We're not making any progress.

???

I am not denying it was the RinneSharingan. The issue is you attributing this to a standard Rinnegan ability when Sasuke himself doesn't know how it works

Again, if you want to go this route we'll have to start giving abilities like Ringo to both Obito and Nagato. It was the work of the rinnegan no? Or maybe, just maybe it is specific to Madara?

 

[comrade]

He might be wrong because? No reason other than you feeling like he might be wrong. Once again, Zetsu too confirmed it was the work of Rinnegan. We're not making any progress.

The opposing side makes a valid point. Sasuke's Rinnegan is different from Madara's. We know that Nagato did not inherit Sharingan specific traits like Madara's Susanoo or Genjutsu either. And the ability to see through illusions is a trademark of the Sharingan just as much as casting them.

So it is valid to challenge the idea that Nagato's Rinnegan is able to see through a Genjutsu as potent as Genjutsu, which, according to Danzo far outclasses the usual Mangekyo Sharingan Genjutsu, which in itself is incredibly powerful.

Having a Rinnesharingan, Uchiha blood and Rikudo Sennin Chakra boost is not the same as a non Uchiha with a Rinnegan.

 

[Gol D. Roger]

???

I am not denying it was the RinneSharingan. The issue is you attributing this to a standard Rinnegan ability when Sasuke himself doesn't know how it works

Again, if you want to go this route we'll have to start giving abilities like Ringo to both Obito and Nagato. It was the work of the rinnegan no? Or maybe, just maybe it is specific to Madara?

Bro, it was literally termed a Rinnegan ability. You playing semantics to avoid being wrong isn't gonna change it lmao. Again, I never said Nagato can do what every other Rinnegan user can; forget Nagato, even Sasuke can't do everything—I literally pointed out how Sasuke's not able to do Infinite Tsukiyomi while still being able to oppose it. I merely said Rinnegan can do what it's implied to be able to do. And the fact that Rinnegan is a superior ocular jutsu supports the claim. I don't see why you guys are failing to see it.

 

[NAMELESS]

Man, Naruto discourse blows Op debates out the water. No mention of shoddy ass portrayal, just pure mechanics of the verse being discussed.

Naruto battle system was fucking godly.

Post automatically merged: Jan 6, 2024

Bro, it was literally termed a Rinnegan ability. You playing semantics to avoid being wrong isn't gonna change it lmao. Again, I never said Nagato can do what every other Rinnegan user can; forget Nagato, even Sasuke can't do everything—I literally pointed out how Sasuke's not able to do Infinite Tsukiyomi while still being able to oppose it. I merely said Rinnegan can do what it's implied to be able to do. And the fact that Rinnegan is a superior ocular jutsu supports the claim. I don't see why you guys are failing to see it.

Isn't infinite TSK a sage of the six paths move?

 

[Gol D. Roger]

The opposing side makes a valid point. Sasuke's Rinnegan is different from Madara's. We know that Nagato did not inherit Sharingan specific traits like Madara's Susanoo or Genjutsu either. And the ability to see through illusions is a trademark of the Sharingan just as much as casting them.

So it is valid to challenge the idea that Nagato's Rinnegan is able to see through a Genjutsu as potent as Genjutsu, which, according to Danzo far outclasses the usual Mangekyo Sharingan Genjutsu, which in itself is incredibly powerful.

Having a Rinnesharingan, Uchiha blood and Rikudo Sennin Chakra boost is not the same as a non Uchiha with a Rinnegan.

The problem is that such a distinction hasn't been made. We're not told, even if vaguely, that he's able to oppose it because he has his kind of Rinnegan. We're simply told he's doing it because he has a Rinnegan. Even Zetsu isn't surprised Rinnegan is able to oppose Genjutsu in general, he's surprised that it can oppose Infinite Tsukiyomi in specific.

I mean, sure Nagato is inferior to Sasuke so he's not as good, but Sasuke was opposing someone twice as strong while we're talking about Nagato opposing someone weaker with a weaker Dojutsu.

 

[Roo]

Bro, it was literally termed a Rinnegan ability.

when? Zetsu himself doesn't understand how he did it.

Sasuke says "probably" not fully understanding it

You're taking the word of 2 characters who have very little idea of what happened

I merely said Rinnegan can do what it's implied to be able to do. And the fact that Rinnegan is a superior ocular jutsu supports the claim. I don't see why you guys are failing to see it.

Nobody is playing semantics, we're literally reading the story as its told.

Nagato, Obito and Madara haven't shown the ability to block genjutsu or cast them with a rinnegan. Sasuke can, with an amped up Rinnegan,

The obvious explanation is that it's a rinnesharingan thing, seeing how that was what casted IT and blocked it.

edit: Anyways we can agree to disagree on this, but it's still a fact that Nagato could not see through Jiraiya's genjutsu while Sasuke and Itachi could Tayuya's. The matter of the fact is Nagato has 0 genjutsu feats, and giving him the ability to counter Itachi's is egregious

 

[comrade]

He isn't just talking about his own Genjutsu. He made a general statement about how a Rinnegan can oppose another Rinnegan.

And we have Zetsu confirming that he's opposing the jutsu thanks to Rinnegan.

But here is the crux: They talk about "Rinnegan Genjutsu". We have never heard of "Rinnegan Genjutsu" outside of Infinite Tsukuyomi, which is cast using that special Rinnesharingan and subsequently resisted using that Rinnesharingan. We know that
1) Madara had to switch back from his Rinnegan to Sharingan in order to cast his Genjutsu and
2) Nagato never used Sharingan specific Genjutsu, nor Susanoo, which suggests that both are Sharingan specific (unless you have that "Rinnesharingan").

So what we established based on Sasuke's and Zetsu's statements: You can counter "Rinnegan Genjutsu" using (that or a similar form) of Rinnegan.

 

[soheilhazrat]

Man, Naruto discourse blows Op debates out the water. No mention of shoddy ass portrayal, just pure mechanics of the verse being discussed.

Its much more fun honestly lol specially pre six path characters rather than just being "Muwah haki stronger negs"

 

[Roo]

Man, Naruto discourse blows Op debates out the water. No mention of shoddy ass portrayal, just pure mechanics of the verse being discussed.

agreed, i looked at the battledome and is filled with mouth breathing takes