Questions & Mysteries Jiraiya couldve beat Pein but why he didnt?

[Roo]

I removed genjustu coz it's not useful in the matchup, not because I don't want to count it lmao. You're forgetting Rinnegan is literally an upgrade of Sharingan.

Genjutsu still works on sharingan and rinnegan users

Sasuke needed to train his own eyes and even then Itachi still planned to put him under koto

and in case you have forgotten, Obito's genjutsu was compared to Shisui's in the kage summit

you also forgot Nagato is not immune to genjutsu

If you remove Kamui, none of Obito's attacks would even threaten Nagato. That's how powerless he'd become once the teleportation is removed from the equation. Nagato, however, isn't a one-trick puny. Not to take anything from Obito, he's a decent fighter outside Kamui too but he's nothing compared to Nagato.

Bruh if we remove the 6 paths technique non kamui Obito has a larger bag

 

[Gol D. Roger]

Genjutsu still works on sharingan and rinnegan users
Sasuke needed to train his own eyes and even then Itachi still planned to put him under koto
and in case you have forgotten, Obito's genjutsu was compared to Shisui's in the kage summit

Two details we're missing. I said genjutsu is useless in this match-up, not that it's useless in general i.e., Obito's genjutsu doesn't work on Nagato. Two, rinnegan is an upgrade of Sharingan while Sasuke had to train his ass to see through genjutsu from a superior eye. Even something as high level as Infinite Tsukuyomi did not work on Sasuke's rinnegan.

Itachi's Tsukuyomi and Kotoamatsukami are special even for an ocular genjutsu because they're MS abilities. Even then, your regular Sharingan could see through Tsukuyomi with adequate training according to Itachi. Koto is no exception with the only difference being the user of Sharingan needs to check if he's being manipulated akin to Ao—But that's a different discussion altogether.

Obito is, by far, the best genjutsu user for a regular Sharingan user, but his genjutsu is nothing compared to regular Tsukuyomi or Kotoamatskukami, forget about Infinite Tsukuyomi—Even IT doesn't work on Rinnegan.

Bruh if we remove the 6 paths technique non kamui Obito has a larger bag

I am not talking about removing Kamui in general and making Obito fight him without it lmao. I am talking about how the other abilities he has don't work on him or get completely destroyed by Nagato's arsenal except for Kamui, which is the only thing that helps Obito win. Obito has nothing comparable to Nagato outside Kamui.

 

[Roo]

Two details we're missing. I said genjutsu is useless in this match-up, not that it's useless in general i.e., Obito's genjutsu doesn't work on Nagato.

Genjutsu works on Nagato, I have already disproven that. No where in the series is even implied an upgraded eye gives you immunity to genjutsu. That is on you to prove.

Two, rinnegan is an upgrade of Sharingan while Sasuke had to train his ass to see through genjutsu from a superior eye. Even something as high level as Infinite Tsukuyomi did not work on Sasuke's rinnegan.

Sasuke's eye are an exception because he received sage chakra. Zetsu who literally knows everything about the world was surprised by it

Itachi's Tsukuyomi and Kotoamatsukami are special even for an ocular genjutsu because they're MS abilities. Even then, your regular Sharingan could see through Tsukuyomi with adequate training according to Itachi. Koto is no exception with the only difference being the user of Sharingan needs to check if he's being manipulated akin to Ao—But that's a different discussion altogether.

Nagato had never shown any sign of Genjutsu resistance. You're giving him that despite him actually falling for a genjutsu

Obito is, by far, the best genjutsu user for a regular Sharingan user, but his genjutsu is nothing compared to regular Tsukuyomi or Kotoamatskukami, forget about Infinite Tsukuyomi—Even IT doesn't work on Rinnegan.

Again, no where in the series is stated that an upgraded eye gives you immunity to genjutsu. We have seen Nagato fall for genjutsu before. A rinnegan is not a genjutsu blocker.

Also Obito's genjutsu is Koto like, he literally controlled a perfect jinchuuriki without anyone noticing for years. To the point where Ao calls it similar to Koto

I am not talking about removing Kamui in general and making Obito fight him without it lmao. I am talking about how the other abilities he has don't work on him or get completely destroyed by Nagato's arsenal except for Kamui, which is the only thing that helps Obito win. Obito has nothing comparable to Nagato outside Kamui.

because you keep ignoring how Nagato got caught in a genjutsu. Also before you claim eye techniques affect differently, they don't. This is Itachi vs a non eye genjutsu expert

This is Nagato vs a non eye genjutsu user

In the end a sharingan allows an user to see through a genjutsu, only if that user trained it's actual eye to do so. An upgraded eye doesn't automaticall give you that, it's never stated nor even implied to be the case. Itachi trained to be a genjutsu expert, Sasuke trained his eyes to beat Itachi, Obito was taught by Madara etc. Nagato never has shown any genjutsu expertise

@TheAncientCenturion correct me if I'm wrong, but this has never been the case. I also looked though the wiki and nowhere in there it mentions immunity to genjutsu

https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Rinnegan?so=search

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

If I'm not wrong, the "rinnegan immune to visual genjutsu" idea came from NF when the 4th Databook was first coming out and being translated. Since then, I've never seen a good source for it though.

it's never been the case anywhere that the rinnegan innately is immune to visual genjutsu.

 

[ZenZu]

Obito has to be the shittiest rinnegan user all time. And Pre Rinnegan he isn't stronger than Nagato/Pain.

Jiraiya was strong and all, but full power Nagato was easily the third strongest chara in the original show right after Kaguya and Madara.

Do Sasuke, Naruto, Hashirama etc. not exist? Or are you talking villains/antagonists only (minus juubi boosted forms at that)?

 

[Roo]

Obito has to be the shittiest rinnegan user all time. And Pre Rinnegan he isn't stronger than Nagato/Pain.

Nagato/Pain literally has no answer for Kamui or Obito's genjutsu, they're getting washed. I have never seen a single convincing argument for Nagato

but that is it's separate thread and I already deviated this thread enough lol

 

[Gol D. Roger]

Genjutsu works on Nagato, I have already disproven that. No where in the series is even implied an upgraded eye gives you immunity to genjutsu. That is on you to prove.

You aren't reading my posts, Roo-kun. I never said genjutsu in general doesn't work. I even confirmed it in my previous post. And you must've skipped pre-skip to not know that sharingan powers resist ocular genjutsu:

Spoiler

Kakashi uses borrowed eyes, and he confirms he can fight off regular Sharingan genjustu. Itachi confirms that If you have a Sharingan, you can resist genjutsu even from an upgraded eye i.e., MS. Basically, even if you're not an original user, an inferior ocular jutsu can resist a superior jutsu. Sasuke, being a pure Uchiha, could even see through Itachi's Tsukuyomi despite lacking MS.

My argument here is about a far superior eye resisting a far inferior eye. Exactly the reverse of what happened with Itachi and Kakashi. What's more, Nagato is of Senju blood so his abilities aren't as degraded as Kakashi's. We already got a confirmation via Sasuke, and no, Zetsu is surprised because he could resist even "Infinite Tsukuyomi" because it's the ultimate genjutsu. He's not surprised that Sasuke can resist genjutsu in general.

Sasuke's eye are an exception because he received sage chakra. Zetsu who literally knows everything about the world was surprised by it

Nagato had never shown any sign of Genjutsu resistance. You're giving him that despite him actually falling for a genjutsu

Once again, it's not about Nagato or him having genjutsu resistance in general. It's about a regular Sharingan genjutsu vs rinnegan here lmao. Rinnegan isn't a separate eye, it's literally an upgraded Sharingan, period.

Again, no where in the series is stated that an upgraded eye gives you immunity to genjutsu. We have seen Nagato fall for genjutsu before. A rinnegan is not a genjutsu blocker.
Also Obito's genjutsu is Koto like, he literally controlled a perfect jinchuuriki without anyone noticing for years. To the point where Ao calls it similar to Koto

Obito controlled a perfect Jinchuriki, and that's why I said his genjutsu is by far the most impressive for a Sharingan user but it's nothing like Koto or even Tsukuyomi for that matter. Ao never said it's similar to Koto. He just talks about how he's able to see through the deception, and by extinction, the genjutsu. Ao literally fought and survived Shisui.

because you keep ignoring how Nagato got caught in a genjutsu. Also before you claim eye techniques affect differently, they don't. This is Itachi vs a non eye genjutsu expert

This proves nothing as far as it concerns how an ocular jutsu affects a superior eye because we know for a fact that ocular powers could resist ocular illusions.

 

[MonsterKaido]

Obito himself wasn't that strong. I'd argue even Itachi (healthy version) was stronger than him.

Obito negs itachi lol. Even nagato. Loses to pain because of matchup

Post automatically merged: Sep 26, 2022

in naruto
knowing the strength/weaknesses of your opponents abilities in order to plan before hand helps you win fights

shikamaru punched above his weight a couple times off of that

naruto had that luxury against pain
jiraiya didnt until he was almost dead.

Pain is way more powerful though. Deva path alone will dominate jiraiya

 

[Roo]

You aren't reading my posts, Roo-kun. I never said genjutsu in general doesn't work. I even confirmed it in my previous post. And you must've skipped pre-skip to not know that sharingan powers resist ocular genjutsu:

Spoiler

Kakashi uses borrowed eyes, and he confirms he can fight off regular Sharingan genjustu. Itachi confirms that If you have a Sharingan, you can resist genjutsu even from an upgraded eye i.e., MS. Basically, even if you're not an original user, an inferior ocular jutsu can resist a superior jutsu. Sasuke, being a pure Uchiha, could even see through Itachi's Tsukuyomi despite lacking MS.

My argument here is about a far superior eye resisting a far inferior eye. Exactly the reverse of what happened with Itachi and Kakashi. What's more, Nagato is of Senju blood so his abilities aren't as degraded as Kakashi's. We already got a confirmation via Sasuke, and no, Zetsu is surprised because he could resist even "Infinite Tsukuyomi" because it's the ultimate genjutsu. He's not surprised that Sasuke can resist genjutsu in general.





Once again, it's not about Nagato or him having genjutsu resistance in general. It's about a regular Sharingan genjutsu vs rinnegan here lmao. Rinnegan isn't a separate eye, it's literally an upgraded Sharingan, period.



Obito controlled a perfect Jinchuriki, and that's why I said his genjutsu is by far the most impressive for a Sharingan user but it's nothing like Koto or even Tsukuyomi for that matter. Ao never said it's similar to Koto. He just talks about how he's able to see through the deception, and by extinction, the genjutsu. Ao literally fought and survived Shisui.



This proves nothing as far as it concerns how an ocular jutsu affects a superior eye because we know for a fact that ocular powers could resist ocular illusions.

Gold read the panel you shared. A sharingan allows the user to fight off genjutsu, I literally agreed with you on that. The issue we’re having here is that you’re giving a Rinnegan an innate counter to a MS or a regular sharingan genjutsu when that has never been the case. Nagato has to train his eyes to combat higher level genjutsu and he has never shown that ability

“one can resist” with can being the key word. It doesn’t say “one will resist”

At the end of the day his showing with Jiraiya shows any top tier genjutsu user would pose a huge threat to him. Also using sage chakra sasuke’s as an example is bad because again, he’s literally an exception to the entire series

 

[SakazOuki]

Gold read the panel you shared. A sharingan allows the user to fight off genjutsu, I literally agreed with you on that. The issue we’re having here is that you’re giving a Rinnegan an innate counter to a MS or a regular sharingan genjutsu when that has never been the case. Nagato has to train his eyes to combat higher level genjutsu and he has never shown that ability

“one can resist” with can being the key word. It doesn’t say “one will resist”

At the end of the day his showing with Jiraiya shows any top tier genjutsu user would pose a huge threat to him. Also using sage chakra sasuke’s as an example is bad because again, he’s literally an exception to the entire series

Genjutsu does not work on Rinnegan.

 

[Roo]

Genjutsu does not work on Rinnegan.

I’ve been into Naruto PS for a while and that has never been the case. TAC is an even bigger nerd than me and even he can’t find the source of that

 

[SakazOuki]

I’ve been into Naruto PS for a while and that has never been the case. TAC is an even bigger nerd than me and even he can’t find the source of that

There’s no source that states otherwise, but Rinnegan is an evolved MS, Nagato’s specifically belonged to Madara.

 

[Gol D. Roger]

Gold read the panel you shared. A sharingan allows the user to fight off genjutsu, I literally agreed with you on that. The issue we’re having here is that you’re giving a Rinnegan an innate counter to a MS or a regular sharingan genjutsu when that has never been the case. Nagato has to train his eyes to combat higher level genjutsu and he has never shown that ability

At the end of the day his showing with Kakashi shows any top tier genjutsu user would pose a huge threat to him. Also using sage chakra sasuke’s as an example is bad because again, he’s literally an exception to the entire series

The point is Itachi says you could resist even MS genjutsu just by having Sharingan. He doesn't say he needs special anti-genjutsu training to do it. Obviously, external factors such as chakra and familiarity with the eye play a role, but the thing is that you literally get auto resistance just by possessing it. Now, Rinnegan is literally a much more advanced Sharingan while all Obito has is a very strong basic Sharingan genjutsu.

If even a basic Sharingan can resist an ocular illusion of an advanced eye, then we have little reason to think an advanced Sharingan couldn't resist an inferior ocular illusion. Sasuke may be special but he doesn't have special rules that wouldn't apply to others from his clan. Zetsu is only surprised he's resisting even Infinite Tsukuyomi, and he's not surprised he's resisting Genjutsu in general, which proves Rinnegan could resist ocular jutsu. This is as simple as joining 2 and 2 and calling it 4.

Post automatically merged: Sep 26, 2022

There’s no source that states otherwise, but Rinnegan is an evolved MS, Nagato’s specifically belonged to Madara.

Exactly, I don't get why they're acting like Rinnegan is a different eye or something.

 

[Roo]

There’s no source that states otherwise, but Rinnegan is an evolved MS, Nagato’s specifically belonged to Madara.

An upgraded eye doesn’t automatically give you genjutsu counter, I have already disproven that

Also Nagato didn’t get all of Madara’s skills, he had to train with Jiraiya to fully unlock his potential and even then he lacked techniques

 

[MonsterKaido]

Rinnegan is different to sharingan and has shown zero genjutsu abilities. You get rinnegan if you have Indra and ashura DNA. Even madara had to switch from rinnegan to sharingan to use genjutsu. Sasuke's rinnegan is different as it is merged with his sharingan

 

[Roo]

The point is Itachi says you could resist even MS genjutsu just by having Sharingan. He doesn't say he needs special anti-genjutsu training to do it. Obviously, external factors such as chakra and familiarity with the eye play a role, but the thing is that you literally get auto resistance just by possessing it. Now, Rinnegan is literally a much more advanced Sharingan while all Obito has is a very strong basic Sharingan genjutsu.

If even a basic Sharingan can resist an ocular illusion of an advanced eye, then we have little reason to think an advanced Sharingan couldn't resist an inferior ocular illusion. Sasuke may be special but he doesn't have special rules that wouldn't apply to others from his clan. Zetsu is only surprised he's resisting even Infinite Tsukuyomi, and he's not surprised he's resisting Genjutsu in general, which proves Rinnegan could resist ocular jutsu. This is as simple as joining 2 and 2 and calling it 4.

Post automatically merged: Sep 26, 2022

Exactly, I don't get why they're acting like Rinnegan is a different eye or something.

Here’s the issue you still don’t get, a sharingan gives you the ability to be able to counter genjutsu, higher level genjutsu can only be countered by sharingans. That is all true, but the fact is that you still need to train the eye in order to unlock these skills, Nagato has never done that or shown he can. An eye upgrade doesn’t automatically make your eye a counter to lower level sharingans. Madara put Obito under a genjutsu right after he unlocked MS with a regular eye.

also as @MonsterKaido pointed out, Madara switched to MS when using Genjutsu. His Rinnegan might not even have the abilities you’re attributing to it

 

[Itsplakitengtenks]

Jiraiya was strong and all, but full power Nagato was easily the third strongest chara in the original show right after Kaguya and Madara. Even with the nine tails powers defeating the Paths Nagato still had so much energy left he could have killed Naruto. The only reason he didn't was Talk no Jutsu which caused Nagato to use his energy to revive Konoha instead. He had the great Uzumaki energy reserves as well as the most hax dojutsu. You ain't beating that lol.

remember that Pein knew Jiraiya’s abilities, but Jiraiya had no idea about Pein’s abilities. Thats big because if Jiraiya knew Pein’s abilities just like Pein knew his things would be different, this is how Naruto was able to par with Pein because Jiraiya’s and the other konoha ninja sacrifice made them do it.

And Naruto actually mastered sage mode but Kurama was interfering it that Naruto was only able to do 5mins, think about Jiraiya who had infinite times to be able to use it..
Some idiots here says that Kurama was the one who actually defeated pein but i disagree, sage mode could actually beat pein himself if Naruto could use sage mode the whole time theyre fighting.

 

[MonsterKaido]

Even with knowledge pain rapes jiraiya

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

Cuz Pain is stronger?