Kingdom 745 Chapter Discussion

#21
Kanki took a L just for fumbling an opportunity like that lol. I mean Riboku wasn’t going to die here but he didn’t even put that man to sleep. I mean we gonna have to see what happens, but if Zhao drops Kanki after all that it would definitely be a major L. Now it really looks like Shin is going to be the one to defeat Riboku and bail out Kanki for another time if he ain’t dead by then.
 
#22
Thankfully this arc is almost over :fujilaugh:
I’m seeing this sentiment a lot and idk why some people are so down on this arc.

This arc has had a lot of exciting stuff happen like brutal sieges, subterfuge and ambushes, and the introduction of new and interesting characters. The pacing has been absolute killer, even by Hara’s usual standards of great pacing.

What's really interesting to me is that the Gyoku Hou, Gaku Ka and Hi Shin armies are now all in tatters. The GHA was pretty much decimated, down to only a couple hundred just 6 months ago, so I doubt they're back at full strength. After the heavy losses they sustained at Gishi Plains and since, I would estimate the Gaku Ka has 3500~4000 troops left at most and the HSA just a bit over ~5000.

I think we’re finally going to see perpetual 1K Commanders like So Sui and Kan Jou promoted, and maybe a couple of new officers with names will join the Q3’s respective units.

A setback in this arc will likely set up a more conventional and straightforwardly exciting battle to follow. I’m hoping we get to see a grudge match between the HSA and Seika Army.
 
#23
I’m seeing this sentiment a lot and idk why some people are so down on this arc.

This arc has had a lot of exciting stuff happen like brutal sieges, subterfuge and ambushes, and the introduction of new and interesting characters. The pacing has been absolute killer, even by Hara’s usual standards of great pacing.

What's really interesting to me is that the Gyoku Hou, Gaku Ka and Hi Shin armies are now all in tatters. The GHA was pretty much decimated, down to only a couple hundred just 6 months ago, so I doubt they're back at full strength. After the heavy losses they sustained at Gishi Plains and since, I would estimate the Gaku Ka has 3500~4000 troops left at most and the HSA just a bit over ~5000.

I think we’re finally going to see perpetual 1K Commanders like So Sui and Kan Jou promoted, and maybe a couple of new officers with names will join the Q3’s respective units.

A setback in this arc will likely set up a more conventional and straightforwardly exciting battle to follow. I’m hoping we get to see a grudge match between the HSA and Seika Army.
This arc has some really good moments but I feel like none of that outweighs the negative. The whole thing about 'Riboku's cage' feels like it destroys the level of suspense and realism, especially after all the loses Zhao has taken and after Kanki's beheadings. Riboku's explanation about Kanki's supposed weakness doesn't make sense (I've elaborated on this before). The akward Saki Clan/HSI unit conversation and Kanki's cringe backstory. The siege of Gian and Denyuu's fake out death (which felt very contrived).
What I really like about this arc are the Shin and Mouten tag team going up against the Seikai generals and Kanki's final ambush against Riboku, all the other stuff is 'meh'. :few:
 
#25
I’m seeing this sentiment a lot and idk why some people are so down on this arc.

.
I'm ready for it to end now. It feels like we've been at the "Kanki has trapped Riboku, now what?" stage for about 6 chapters with a few breaks on top. It's slowed right down.

I'm not down on it overall though. I have a major issue with the number disparity though. I appreciate how Riboku engineered it, but it also took me out of the game, somewhat. I would have much preferred it if Riboku was actually outnumbered, managed to cut ousen off, and then went into his direct battle with Kanki with closer numbers before winning.

As ever with Kingdom arcs, i'm sure it'll be really good when re-read in bulk, though. I love Kanki but i'm feeling a bit of fatigue with him now. Actually I'm feeling it a bit with Zhao as well.
 
#27
I'm not down on it overall though. I have a major issue with the number disparity though. I appreciate how Riboku engineered it, but it also took me out of the game, somewhat. I would have much preferred it if Riboku was actually outnumbered, managed to cut ousen off, and then went into his direct battle with Kanki with closer numbers before winning.
People grossly over exaggerate the number disparity. It is not that big.
I think people are overestimating Riboku's numbers advantage by looking at it the wrong way.

140,000 vs 310,000 sounds like a major difference in power but Riboku's forces are in fact only slightly over the 2x mark.

Say if a Qin force had 10,000 troops while a Zhao force had 60,000 troops. The numerical difference is only 50,000 but the Zhao have a force 6x larger. Every Qin soldier would need to kill at least 6 Zhao soldiers at minimum in order to win.

With Riboku vs Kanki, Riboku has 170,000 more troops but his force is only slightly more than 2x larger. If each Qin soldier aimed to kill 3 Zhao than they would win handily.

Also, yeah no shit Riboku has a numerical advantage, this is deep in Zhao territory and Riboku is the kind of guy that always aims to have every single possible advantage in his favour before a battle even begins. Riboku never willingly fights against the odds, he always stacks the odds in his favour and has his opponent fight against those odds instead.

Riboku worked to have that numerical advantage. He shattered the North Qin Army and tied up the Ousen Army in Atsuyo. Sure he could have had his 310,000 face off against a numerically superior Qin Army and attempt to perform some insane tactical miracle but then why would he do that when he can have that advantage instead? Lel.
 
#28
This arc has some really good moments but I feel like none of that outweighs the negative. The whole thing about 'Riboku's cage' feels like it destroys the level of suspense and realism, especially after all the loses Zhao has taken and after Kanki's beheadings.
That's fair enough. Setting aside the recorded history, I would argue the necessity in giving the Zhao (an overdue) victory here from a narrative perspective. If only to keep the Zhao Campaign interesting and preserve Ri Boku as a credible threat to Qin's ambitions.

Historically, the Qin did lose a couple battles, but they weren't so desperately outnumbered. In fact, the Qin had the bigger army in pretty much every battle of note throughout unification. Of course, Kingdom isn't a recounting of history, but a heavily fictionalised, dramatised retelling, so Hara's first priority as a storyteller is to tell an interesting story. To that end, I don't mind most of the changes he has made, such as giving the Zhao tons of troops and generals. Most of his changes have kept the story interesting, exciting and tough to predict.

Though it was imo way more impressive in actual history (given the dire state of Zhao through droughts, famines, earthquakes, etc.), it really shouldn't be surprising Zhao is still in fighting shape after Eikyuu. Zhao had a population in the millions even during this period. Considering every scrap of resource is being dedicated to the national defence, once again led by Ri Boku, joined by the formidable generals of Seika, they were bound to put together formidable armies and mount at least a comeback victory or two. The story is more exciting for it in my view.

Riboku's explanation about Kanki's supposed weakness doesn't make sense (I've elaborated on this before).
I hate this explanation of Kan Ki's weakness as well. In my headcanon/perception of Kingdom, he is a natural Hybrid Type like Ren Pa, with savant acumen for warfare, capable of understanding, identifying and even perfectly copying high level tactics and strategy on par with masters like Ou Sen and Ri Boku despite not having a shred of formal training.

It was my theory (and remains my headcanon) Kan Ki's weakness was the source of his drive: his rage was his fatal flaw. That anger could be used against him by those who understood him on a fundamental level, who understood he didn't just go for the enemy's head because he wants to (and he does), but because he's needs to. It was my theory that Kan Ki's rage was so all-consuming to him, he would develop tunnel vision and leave himself uncharacteristically open to a counterattack if he believed his psychological warfare was working, i.e. he was inflicting pain and exercising power over his prey.

I'd also have written it as Ri Boku seeing through Kan Ki's corpse tree bluff and setting himself up as bait, I was convinced that's what was happening until the ambush actually happened and Hara spelled it out Ri Boku got caught.

The akward Saki Clan/HSI unit conversation and Kanki's cringe backstory.
I don't like his backstory either, but I'm holding out hope the full reveal of it will retroactively make the bits we know better.

Personally, I would've given Kan Ki a background similar to Guts from Berserk.

The siege of Gian and Denyuu's fake out death (which felt very contrived).
This, I fucking hated.

Not just Den Yuu, but Chu Tetsu and Ryuu Sen had their fake-out Death Flags revoked in the same chapter. Den Yuu should've died and it should've inspired Ryuu Sen to become a more reliable member of the HSA.

What I really like about this arc are the Shin and Mouten tag team going up against the Seikai generals
Shin rising to the moment remains the highlight of this arc for me. That or Kan Ki's breakthrough.

The Seika generals are pretty good characters. Hara did a good job not just with them, but also with Ba Fu Ji and Ko Haku Kou. I particularly liked how SSJ put his trust in Ko Haku Kou in the latest chapter.
Riboku, all the other stuff is 'meh'. :few:
I'll say this, the arc started much stronger than it is, but things are far from boring.

I don't disagree with your critiques. Personally, I wish Hara hadn't gone with the scale of ambush he decided on for Gishi Plains. I'd be down for a cat-and-mouse game between Ri Boku and Kan Ki, but I can't say I'd have gone for the choices Hara made.

For me lack of death from Ribokus and Kankis core ruined the climax..it should have been more brutal with personal deaths for both parties
I very much agree with this.

If I had the power to edit what happened, I would've written it as
Gishi Plains: Jyou Ka Ryuu kills Gaku Rai andShin kills JKR.
Gian: Den Yuu dies.
Ambush: Ri Boku kills Shu Ma, Ba Fu Ji kills Rin Gyoku, Shun Sui Ju kills Koku'Ou, Zenou kills Ba Fu Ji, Kan Ki kills Fu Tei, Ba Nan Ji kills Zenou and foot soldiers stab, dismount and hack Kan Ki to death
 
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#30
I'm ready for it to end now. It feels like we've been at the "Kanki has trapped Riboku, now what?" stage for about 6 chapters with a few breaks on top. It's slowed right down.

I'm not down on it overall though. I have a major issue with the number disparity though. I appreciate how Riboku engineered it, but it also took me out of the game, somewhat. I would have much preferred it if Riboku was actually outnumbered, managed to cut ousen off, and then went into his direct battle with Kanki with closer numbers before winning.

As ever with Kingdom arcs, i'm sure it'll be really good when re-read in bulk, though. I love Kanki but i'm feeling a bit of fatigue with him now. Actually I'm feeling it a bit with Zhao as well.
I'm in agreement that I can't wait for the arc to end.

I regard the Gian Campaign/Zhao Retaliation Arc as well-paced and overall a good and entertaining story, but it had the beginnings and makings of a truly incredible arc that may have stood shoulder to shoulder with Bayou/Sanyou if not Shukai/Coalition, had Hara had gone the other way on a few of his choices in particular (namely the scale of the ambush).

@Rumble So we actually agree more on what we disagree with it seems. I geuss for me this arc just didn't really do it. I'm also a bit bored with the Zhao conquest as a whole since we've seen Qin fight them since Kokuyo Hills (minus the Juuko arc which was very short anyway).
I don't find any of your criticism objectionable, I'm inclined to agree with most of them.

Overall, the flaws don't drag down my rating of the arc quite as much, but the flaws and shortcomings (subjective as that may be) are certainly there and numerous.
 
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