Rules Kingdom General Discussion

[Owl Ki]

Yes, but who is relying on stats?

How about the only person in this section that I ever see consistently bringing the accursed things up? Lol.

That Shou Mou's strength "knows no limits"?

Unequivocally, yes.

That wasn't the quote we were talking about though....
This was the quote that was being discussed.

I am retreading Bayou, and apparently Shoumou was considered the strongest offensive power in all of Zhao-

Hara's use of hyperbole is staple of his writing and it can get silly. You should pretty much ignore the grandiose statements and flowery language for the most part because it rarely - if it ever has - aligns with what Hara shows us.

Like when? All the characters I can think of that got hyped, were 100% legitimately hype or their hype was used to hype another character (e.g. Shoumou's hype was there to hype Ouki).

Debating whether Shou Mou was the strongest general Zhao could field at the time is missing the point. If you'll read again, I didn't contest claim.

Hara's use of hyperbole is staple of his writing and it can get silly. You should pretty much ignore the grandiose statements and flowery language for the most part because it rarely - if it ever has - aligns with what Hara shows us.

Shou Mou was strong, his strength just didn't live up to the hyperbole used to describe it. That goes for just about everyone in Kingdom. That's the point.

Again, not the point I was making.

I'm not speaking to Shou Mou's strength relative to Ou Ki or anyone else, or where he ranked among active Zhao generals at the time.

I'm only speaking to Hara's use of hyperbole. It's staple of his writing and because of that we should take every statement made, view given and opinion expressed with a generous pinch of salt.

So let me get this straight....

You make a a general post that doesn't quote anyone but is made during a discussion that is happening, to go on about Hara's supposed inconsistent use of hyperbole (without initially providing any examples) and then when quoted by users who think you are talking about the statement that was being discussed, you say you actually meant a completely different statement to what everyone else was talking about to begin with?....

Is it any wonder folk are getting confused. Lol.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

ou make a a general post that doesn't quote anyone but is made during a discussion that is happening, to go on about Hara's supposed inconsistent use of hyperbole (without initially providing any examples) and then when quoted by users who think you are talking about the statement that was being discussed, you say you actually meant a completely different statement to what everyone else was talking about to begin with?....

But then he also said he never disagreed with Shoumou being the strongest offensive power in Zhao which is what we were discussing? I’m so confused lol.

 

[Rumble]

Okay, how about here:

If you agree with Shoumou being the greatest offensive power in Zhao, then I don’t see how he didn’t live up to his hype lol.

What does Shou Mou not living up to the hype have to do with whether or not he was the greatest offensive power in Zhao?

One statement has nothing to do with the other.

You going to make me revisit Akou vs Rokuomi? Lol

Why stop now? Please do.

How about the only person in this section that I ever see consistently bringing the accursed things up? Lol.

In what way am I relying on them, in what context? I issue you the same challenge, please do post examples of when I used stats as anything more than indicators.

I doubt you'll find any post that doesn't include, isn't preceded or followed by some disclaimer on how stats are by and large bullshit/arbitrary but have limited use and value.

That wasn't the quote we were talking about though....
This was the quote that was being discussed.

So let me get this straight....

You make a a general post that doesn't quote anyone but is made during a discussion that is happening, to go on about Hara's supposed inconsistent use of hyperbole (without initially providing any examples) and then when quoted by users who think you are talking about the statement that was being discussed, you say you actually meant a completely different statement to what everyone else was talking about to begin with?....

Is it any wonder folk are getting confused. Lol.

I made two posts commenting on Shou Mou.

The one where I respond to @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung

I keep telling y'all not to take statements and opinions expressed by the characters in Kingdom as gospel for a reason.

Hara's writing is especially prone to hyperbole. It's a minor drawback on a style of writing that's really good for creating tension, stakes and anticipation at a good pace.

Context, context, context, context, context.

Without it, you'd think half the slain generals in this manga were living legends.

& the one that @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung responded to.

Show > Tell

It's a basic tenet of writing.

Hara will write statements, opinions and views expressed in the manga that don't necessarily line up with what happens or the stats he comes up with in supplemental material.

If the 4HK were making their debut in Chu, you could bet your house they'd have considerably different stats. They'd be hyped in a completely different way.

Shou Mou was strong, but you can and should pretty much ignore the absurd hyperbole around him, and that goes for everyone else in the manga - whether it's someone we know like Ri Boku or Mou Bu, or someone yet to be introduced in full like Shi Ba Shou and Kou En.

Neither post affirms or denies the claim of Shou Mou being the greatest offensive power in Zhao.

I spoke only to Hara's use of hyperbole and how accurately that aligns with what he depicts.

Like when? All the characters I can think of that got hyped, were 100% legitimately hype or their hype was used to hype another character (e.g. Shoumou's hype was there to hype Ouki).

I don't see the point in going down this rabbit hole until we clear up this Shou Mou issue, but it happens all the time.

It's how Hara likes to write, particularly when it comes to describing Ri Boku's intellect. I believe we had a chapter just recently that was pretty much littered with grandiose statements and flowery language describing RBK's genius in luring the Qin into his trap at Gian.

 

[Big Boiii]

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Who is thinking in the top panel?

 

[Big Boiii]

Who is thinking in the top panel?

Shouheikun. Talking about how nobody's here to start another alliance since Riboku is disgraced & Shunshinkun dead.

Kouen about to be Riboku level or above

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Shouheikun. Talking about how nobody's here to start another alliance since Riboku is disgraced & Shunshinkun dead.

Kouen about to be Riboku level or above

I’m telling you bruh. My theory on Kou En is that he conquered Southern Qi back when the first Coalition army attacked Qi. Imagine a General strong enough to conquer huge swathes of a superstate’s territory. Lol

 

[Big Boiii]

I’m telling you bruh. My theory on Kou En is that he conquered Southern Qi back when the first Coalition army attacked Qi. Imagine a General strong enough to conquer huge swathes of a superstate’s territory. Lol

To support your theory. Gray = superstate of Qi. Kouen would've basically taken a chunk from Qi bigger than Qi itself and about the size of Wei. Would explain "Conqueror of the East".

 

[Rumble]

I don't think he'll be a pushover by any means but I am not anticipating Kou En to be a top tier fighter as many others seem to do.

If he is a top tier fighter, I expect his strength to be similar to that of Duke Hyou.

I suspect Kou En will be defined by his leadership and experience. From what little we know, I am under the impression the man is a bona fide conqueror possessing unrivalled knowledge and experience in warfare.

In my mind, his design with be like a cross of Ko Chou and Mou Gou.

I imagine his stats could look something like
STR 89~95*
LDR 100
INT 97
EXP S

*I think Hara may decide that age does play a factor for Kou En and he doesn't possess the great strength he did in his youth (assuming he was a top tier fighter in his youth)

 

[Big Boiii]

I don't think he'll be a pushover by any means but I am not anticipating Kou En to be a top tier fighter as many others seem to do.

If he is a top tier fighter, I expect his strength to be similar to that of Duke Hyou.

I suspect Kou En will be defined by his leadership and experience. From what little we know, the man is a bona fide conqueror possessing unrivalled knowledge and experience in warfare.

In my mind, his design with be like a cross of Ko Chou and Mou Gou.

"The Tiger of Chu" is his epithet. Tiger symbolizes strength, might, etc. The other time the word "tiger" was associated with a great general of some sort:

Likelihood of him not being a top tier fighter is very low, imo.

 

[Rumble]

"The Tiger of Chu" is his epithet. Tiger symbolizes strength, might, etc. The other time the word "tiger" was associated with a great general of some sort:

Likelihood of him not being a top tier fighter is very low, imo.

Strength and ferocity can take many forms.

While I'm inclined to believe Kou En was a top tier fighter in his youth, how old is he now and will his age impact his martial ability?

I'm certainly not expecting him to be as strong or stronger than Kan Mei, or even in the vicinity. I suspect Kou Yoku will be one of his main hitters among others when the time comes, but I digress.

As it stands, for all we know, Kou En earned that name fighting on the frontlines in his youth and the martial ability he possesses today - while nothing to sneeze at - isn't what it used to be. Nevertheless, even old tigers are still tigers.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

I don't think he'll be a pushover by any means but I am not anticipating Kou En to be a top tier fighter as many others seem to do.

If he is a top tier fighter, I expect his strength to be similar to that of Duke Hyou.

I suspect Kou En will be defined by his leadership and experience. From what little we know, I am under the impression the man is a bona fide conqueror possessing unrivalled knowledge and experience in warfare.

In my mind, his design with be like a cross of Ko Chou and Mou Gou.

I imagine his stats could look something like
STR 89~95*
LDR 100
INT 97
EXP S

*I think Hara may decide that age does play a factor for Kou En and he doesn't possess the great strength he did in his youth (assuming he was a top tier fighter in his youth)

I already detailed what I think will happen during the final Chu war here, be weary when reading this post because there are history spoilers involved. I will add to this post here:

Spoiler: History

I think that narratively Shin’s failure in the first Chu war will serve to finally elevate him to the level of “all-time greatest Generals,” as failure is a huge part of life and growth, and thus Shin will not truly reach “the greatest General of all time” until he experiences true, brutal failure at the hands of Kou En.

So you have Kou En who horribly defeats Shin during the first Chu Campaign (at this point in the manga Shin will have defeated both Kanki and Gaimou), and then Shin returns in the second Campaign to make up for his prior failures and to surpass Kou En. I likened this to the Avengers failing horribly in Infinity War only to come back and ultimately win in end game (this is a common trope in storytelling but just this as an example).

When Shin returns to face Chu in the second Chu war, Renpa will realize that Shin’s failure has caused him to grow and will personally set out to face Shin, Shin slays Renpa which completes Renpa’s character arc of having his old fire re-ignited on the battlefield as well as dying on the battlefield, while also narratively marking the point where Shin officially surpasses Renpa and his era of Generals.

Then Shin will ultimately slay Kou En, which will mark the point of Shin surpassing Gaku Ki’s era of warfare as well.

So I think for Kou En to be such a massively important figure for Shin, he will need to be a monstrous warrior.

And Kou En probably isn’t that old, he conquered the East 20 years ago so currently he may be in his 50s, probably even younger than Renpa tbh.

 

[Bullet]

I already detailed what I think will happen during the final Chu war here, be weary when reading this post because there are history spoilers involved. I will add to this post here:

Spoiler: History

I think that narratively Shin’s failure in the first Chu war will serve to finally elevate him to the level of “all-time greatest Generals,” as failure is a huge part of life and growth, and thus Shin will not truly reach “the greatest General of all time” until he experiences true, brutal failure at the hands of Kou En.

So you have Kou En who horribly defeats Shin during the first Chu Campaign (at this point in the manga Shin will have defeated both Kanki and Gaimou), and then Shin returns in the second Campaign to make up for his prior failures and to surpass Kou En. I likened this to the Avengers failing horribly in Infinity War only to come back and ultimately win in end game (this is a common trope in storytelling but just this as an example).

When Shin returns to face Chu in the second Chu war, Renpa will realize that Shin’s failure has caused him to grow and will personally set out to face Shin, Shin slays Renpa which completes Renpa’s character arc of having his old fire re-ignited on the battlefield as well as dying on the battlefield, while also narratively marking the point where Shin officially surpasses Renpa and his era of Generals.

Then Shin will ultimately slay Kou En, which will mark the point of Shin surpassing Gaku Ki’s era of warfare as well.

So I think for Kou En to be such a massively important figure for Shin, he will need to be a monstrous warrior.

And Kou En probably isn’t that old, he conquered the East 20 years ago so currently he may be in his 50s, probably even younger than Renpa tbh.

By the time we get to him it will take another 10 years maybe
I don't expect him to be a big martial challenge to Shin if he doesn't get injured before the fight
Kanmei considers himself the strongest while having served under him and he's gonna be even older when we get to him so maybe we get a guy that is top tier but i don't expect a Houken or a Moubu

 

[Big Boiii]

I already detailed what I think will happen during the final Chu war here, be weary when reading this post because there are history spoilers involved. I will add to this post here:

Spoiler: History

I think that narratively Shin’s failure in the first Chu war will serve to finally elevate him to the level of “all-time greatest Generals,” as failure is a huge part of life and growth, and thus Shin will not truly reach “the greatest General of all time” until he experiences true, brutal failure at the hands of Kou En.

So you have Kou En who horribly defeats Shin during the first Chu Campaign (at this point in the manga Shin will have defeated both Kanki and Gaimou), and then Shin returns in the second Campaign to make up for his prior failures and to surpass Kou En. I likened this to the Avengers failing horribly in Infinity War only to come back and ultimately win in end game (this is a common trope in storytelling but just this as an example).

When Shin returns to face Chu in the second Chu war, Renpa will realize that Shin’s failure has caused him to grow and will personally set out to face Shin, Shin slays Renpa which completes Renpa’s character arc of having his old fire re-ignited on the battlefield as well as dying on the battlefield, while also narratively marking the point where Shin officially surpasses Renpa and his era of Generals.

Then Shin will ultimately slay Kou En, which will mark the point of Shin surpassing Gaku Ki’s era of warfare as well.

So I think for Kou En to be such a massively important figure for Shin, he will need to be a monstrous warrior.

And Kou En probably isn’t that old, he conquered the East 20 years ago so currently he may be in his 50s, probably even younger than Renpa tbh.

Idk bruh if he's from Gakuki's era he's likely gonna be 70-80 range. The Qi thing happened 39-36 years before the current story started. I'd reckon he'd be atleast 20 at that time, if he was even younger and a prodigy unlike any other.. then bless.

Thinking more about it "conqueror of east" likely doesn't have anything to do with superstate of Qi, since historically majority of the heavy work was done by Gakuki. I think in the time that the Qi got taken down & before Chu came to be what it is now, that Eastern region more than likely was a heavy conflicted area, which Kouen conquered himself. An area that had beasts akin to the Juuko generals (remember even these guys only got conquered around 12 years ago, which is 2 years before the story started).

 

[TheKnightOfTheSea]

@Owl Ki @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung @God Buggy was rereading Coalition Arc and came across this panel

Spoiler: History Spoilers

I have a feeling that Moubu and Ousen will play the same role in the final Chu invasion.

Thoughts on what the Chu arc will have for those two? How do you think Shin will play into the invasion too.

 

[Big Boiii]

@Owl Ki @Fleet Admiral Lee Hung @God Buggy was rereading Coalition Arc and came across this panel

Spoiler: History Spoilers

I have a feeling that Moubu and Ousen will play the same role in the final Chu invasion.

Thoughts on what the Chu arc will have for those two? How do you think Shin will play into the invasion too.

Spoiler: History Spoilers

Don't think it'll be the same roles as there's nothing to defend for them, especially since as far as we know Ousen is unmatched offensively by any of the Qin 5 members in terms of role on the campaign.

1st Shin Campaign is likely going to establish Shin as the Top 1 in Qin/China, or atleast have people talking about how he's the Top 1 general in China. But then it comes into question when he's taken down by the combined force for Kouen & SHK (two riboku level inidviduals by that time) OR.. he goes into this campaign as being considered that Top 1 in China, which would justify the SHK & Kouen team up to take out Shin.

2nd Shin Campaign with these guys will be his "Redemption" he's likely gonna be going through a depression type of phase, where it'll be about him conquering the massive loss of his closest officers and essentially "starting anew", and by the end of the campaign he'll establish himself as "I'm back mfs" moment. Then the campaign after that will be his "omg he's the best general in China!!!" campaign. If Hara does no Qi war then he'll establish himself as Top 1 by end of the Chu campaign.

 

[Rumble]

I already detailed what I think will happen during the final Chu war here, be weary when reading this post because there are history spoilers involved. I will add to this post here:

Spoiler: History

I think that narratively Shin’s failure in the first Chu war will serve to finally elevate him to the level of “all-time greatest Generals,” as failure is a huge part of life and growth, and thus Shin will not truly reach “the greatest General of all time” until he experiences true, brutal failure at the hands of Kou En.

So you have Kou En who horribly defeats Shin during the first Chu Campaign (at this point in the manga Shin will have defeated both Kanki and Gaimou), and then Shin returns in the second Campaign to make up for his prior failures and to surpass Kou En. I likened this to the Avengers failing horribly in Infinity War only to come back and ultimately win in end game (this is a common trope in storytelling but just this as an example).

When Shin returns to face Chu in the second Chu war, Renpa will realize that Shin’s failure has caused him to grow and will personally set out to face Shin, Shin slays Renpa which completes Renpa’s character arc of having his old fire re-ignited on the battlefield as well as dying on the battlefield, while also narratively marking the point where Shin officially surpasses Renpa and his era of Generals.

Then Shin will ultimately slay Kou En, which will mark the point of Shin surpassing Gaku Ki’s era of warfare as well.

So I think for Kou En to be such a massively important figure for Shin, he will need to be a monstrous warrior.

And Kou En probably isn’t that old, he conquered the East 20 years ago so currently he may be in his 50s, probably even younger than Renpa tbh.

As others have pointed out, the timeline doesn’t support Kou En being anywhere near his 50s.

King Ou Ken of Qi is 52 years old and he was born towards the end of the Coalition War led by Gaku Ki.

Assuming he served during that war, that puts Kou En in his 70s at least. Even if it was his first campaign and he wasn’t of appropriate fighting age.

It could easily take Qin another decade to deal with Chu. Kou En could be in his 80s by then.

Hara is quite selective in when age does and doesn’t impact a fighter’s ability, but I suspect Kou En will be an old man. Too old to give any top tier fighter much of a challenge in a duel.

Even if Kou En didn’t fight in the Coalition War of 50 years ago, Mou Bu was in his mid to late 30s when he slew Kan Mei in the Coalition War of 10 years ago. I think it’s fair to say Kan Mei was at least 10 years his senior, and I can image the gap was at least that for Kan Mei and Kou En, which would still be putting him in his late 60s/early 70s.

I could be completely off the mark about this, but I don’t expect Kou En to be younger than mid to late 60s at best.

For reference, Ou Ki, who was something of an older contemporary to Kan Mei, was in his mid to late 50s when he died.

 

[God Buggy]

Shouheikun. Talking about how nobody's here to start another alliance since Riboku is disgraced & Shunshinkun dead.

Kouen about to be Riboku level or above

Oh shit. I didn't remember these two panels.

When I thought it wasn't possible to make me more hyped than I already was for Kou En, you just came in with these

 

[MarineHQ]

Kouen the only general that might surpass Hakuki for me

 

[Rumble]

Kouen the only general that might surpass Hakuki for me

I don’t believe there will be “another RBK” going forward, not even in Kou En.

RBK, Ren Pa, Ou Sen and Haku Ki are considered the four best military commanders of their era and I don’t believe Hara will deviate from that.

Of course I believe there will be serious challenges ahead presented by the likes Go Hou Mei, Ordo, Ka Rin and Kou En, for sure, but the biggest obstacle when dealing with Chu will be the sheer resources and firepower they will have at their disposal.

• Kou En
• Ka Rin
• Ren Pa
• Kai Shi Bou
• Kyo En
• Kou Yoku
• Haku Rei
• Man’U
• Sen To’un
• Gen’U

And those are just the names we know. There will likely be quite a few more notably commanders and warriors revealed from all of the states, and Chu being the biggest one, will likely have some fearsome individuals yet to make their debut.

Chu will have not only have the resources to field vast armies numbers, they’ll have talent to spare with regards to leadership and command structure.

Qin vs Chu will be a superstate slugfest.