Character Discussion Kizaru and Saturn are not "weak" nor a "Letdown"

#21
So there seems to be some sort of misconception floating around here that due to Kizaru and Saturn's showing so far on Egghead, that it constitutes regarding them as characters who are to be considered a "letdown". Now if you look at how past arcs have played out, and were structured, then there would be no issues with this way of thinking. In the past, we've always seen the Straw Hat pirates going up insurmountable odds, where they've come into the arc as the underdogs. However, the end of Wano, and Egghead Island has become the turning point for the series, in regards to how Oda seems to be approaching the series.

At the end of Wano, the Straw Hats have been recognized as a full blown Yonko crew. It's asinine to believe that Oda is going to treat the Straw Hats from this point forward, in the same way he has treated them in the past. Not only does this not make sense from a readers point of view, but it also does not make sense from a narrative point of view, with in which how Yonko's are perceived within the story itself.

Now if you have paid attention throughout the story, then you would understand, that Top Tiers have been portrayed to stand at a relatively equal level towards each other. In some instances there is even times where a single top tier, can hold their own against two other top tiers, for a fixed amount of time. This isn't applied to any one single top tier, but is heavily implied that all Top Tiers are capable of doing something like this. For example, we have Shiki the Golden Lion, who was capable of fighting against Sengoku and Garp at the same time, until he ultimately lost, and in another instance we have Rayleigh, who inferred back on Sabaody that if he wasn't out of his prime, that he would be capable of helping out the Straw Hats, while at the same time fighting against Kizaru. There is also the matter, where Kizaru requested from Akainu that he be allowed to go and intercept Kaido and Big Mom, in order to stop them from forming an alliance. These aren't isolated instances, but rather a piece of the puzzle, of the story that Oda is trying to tell. Top Tiers don't fall easily, even when faced with the odds stacked against them.

With that being said, we will move back to Saturn and Kizaru. Like I said earlier, Oda has now had to change the formula of how he writes the Straw Hats, now that they have become a Yonko crew, and Luffy has achieved Top Tier status. First and foremost, what people fail understand, is that Kizaru has not been having a terrible showing at all. He has been fighting against another top tier, this entire time, and this is what people fail to see. The days are gone where Luffy is going to be going into a fight, and start off on the losing end. He has made it to the stage, where there isn't a person in the World who is going to dominate him right off the bat, like how the story has been structured in the past. It can't happen like that anymore, otherwise Oda will be going against his own set of rules that he has established.

Kizaru could not just come into this arc, and completely dominate, because he is not fighting against a Luffy who came into the arc at a lower level than himself. He is fighting against a Luffy who came into the arc at an equal level. The ending of the Kaido fight should have been more than enough for the fans to comprehend this. Luffy went from getting completely crushed by Kaido in the beginning, standing on equal footing with him at the end. This is where the misconception starts to take form.

People are so used to Top Tiers coming in and just demolishing everyone whose weaker than them, that it is stuck in their heads that if they aren't just wrecking everyone in site, then this is a bad showing on their part. That is completely false, because as I have already explained, Kizaru is not fighting against a weaker opponent, so Oda has to remove this sense of overbearing power from him, because it doesn't fit the narrative. Oda can't elevate the Straw Hats to the status of one of the highest powers in the World, and still treat them like they are a bunch of scrubs in the face of other Top Tiers. That would be piss poor writing.

With that being said, the same applies to Saturn. He also, can not come in, and just barrel straight through the Straw Hat crew either. Top Tier or not, he is up against a Yonko crew. And I can give a fuck all, what you power level junkies want to think, but ALL of the Straw Hat crew have gotten much stronger. This BS "Haha blocked by Sanji", or "can't kill Franky" etc.. garbage has to stop. It's like yall forget about Marineford, and how the WB Commanders were capable of fighting against Top Tiers. Yall are so stuck on your character wars, that you can't open your eyes and see just how far the Straw Hats have progressed as a whole. They have all gotten much stronger, and will not be steamrolled by Top Tiers, like they have in the past.

That brings me to my last point. Now that we've established that the Straw Hats are much stronger, and will no longer be the underdogs, how does Oda go about putting them at a disadvantage? Well, we've gotten our answer with KIzaru and Saturn. This is how Oda is stacking the odds against Luffy at the moment. Seeing as how it is not narratively possible for him to have one Top Tier put the Straw Hats into a back against the wall situation, and he needs to keep the odds in the villains favor, he has brought two Top Tiers into the mix. In any other series, this might seem like overkill, but in One Piece, Oda was smart about it, and has already established the narrative that one Top Tier can fight and hold off two top tiers for a fixed amount of time. Doing this, does not make Kizaru nor Saturn look bad, because either one of them would be able to do the same thing, if the roles were reversed.

It's time for all of you to take your nostalgia glasses off, and start reading the story from a logical standpoint. Gone are the days where the Straw Hats look like the underdogs from a power level standpoint. Your top tier faves will no longer have the dominating presence they once had, because they are no longer fighting against those who are beneath them. We are in EoS, and the Straw Hats are fast approaching being known as the Pirate King crew. It's time to accept it, move on, and enjoy how far our favorites have come.
Agreeèeeeeeeeeeeeeee powerscaling is garbage take to even read One Piece
 
H

Herrera95

#22
Kizaru is not weak or a letdown.

Saturn is.

Saturn did literally nothing. He accomplished literally nothing.

Kizaru fulfilled all his mission objectives.
 
#26
Awakened Saturn will demolish Nika with his poison next weeks, then we'll talk.

For Kiz unfortunately, I have a feeling that he's not going to awaken his fruit
 
#28
Kizaru could not just come into this arc, and completely dominate, because he is not fighting against a Luffy who came into the arc at a lower level than himself. He is fighting against a Luffy who came into the arc at an equal level
For now, Luffy looks much stronger than Kizaru, not equal. I hope Kizaru shows Awakening or something and shows he's at the same lvl but for now it's far from true.
Also, it shows that Kaido was on a different level compared with admirals. Just compare how Luffy was going all out against him, with how he put Kizaru down with one aCoC attack, it's a joke.
 
S

Sasaki Kojirō

#29
The mistake people make is in comparing Kizaru to a strong and insane monster, the strongest living creature in the world that has been repeatedly mentioned as the pinnacle of strength and therefore above Kizaru in terms of power. This kind of thinking stems from ignorant individuals who are illiterate in power scaling, expecting all higher levels or top tiers, as you may call them, to be relatively close to each other in power, a notion completely debunked by the manga.


They are based on confrontations that, when analyzed in terms of matchups, have everything for one character to be able to prolong the fight against the other for a long time:

Kaido vs Big Mom lasted 3 days. However, when you analyze the confrontation, it's about the two most resistant and durable characters in the series fighting each other. This alone justifies the 3-day duration between Base Kaido vs Big Mom.

Aokiji vs Akainu, ice and magma, the nullification between their powers played a significant role in the fight lasting so long.

Whitebeard and Roger, were they going all out? It lasted 3 days like Kaido and Big Mom, and in the end, it wasn't a fight in which both were willing to go all the way. Roger was also sick at the time. However, the adversary was Whitebeard, the WSM of that era and the Pirate King, both on par with each other. This is different from, for example, putting Kizaru against Roger. LMAO


Ace vs. Jimbei, Jimbei had access to the sea and therefore could "deal" with Ace's main power using water.

Jack vs the Dukes, they revisited every 12 hours, giving time for the Dukes to rest.

Katakuri and Cracker were decided in hours, not days. However, the confrontation was quite unfavorable for Luffy initially in both cases, and that justifies the duration, i don't think the protagonist is a good reference to use because they are shielded by the plot armor, and fights involving them don't last long. They receive power-ups out of nowhere, and everything is easier for them than for secondary characters.
 
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#30
Said this in another thread, but everyone just needs to wait and see how the rest of the arc plays out, becayse Oda changes hype on a dime with characters.

King for example was trashed because Marco initially 2v1'ed him to the point where people didnt think Zoro would actually fight him. I dont even think he got one named move prior to his fight with Zoro. Then all od a sudden Oda flipped a switch with him in 1027 and people considered him extremely badass for the next 9 chapters.

Id wait and see if/when Kizaru shows new moves save for his 3 treasures, or if Saturn actually has ANY named moves whatsoever lol. They should in theory counter attack Luffy next chapter.
 
#31
So there seems to be some sort of misconception floating around here that due to Kizaru and Saturn's showing so far on Egghead, that it constitutes regarding them as characters who are to be considered a "letdown". Now if you look at how past arcs have played out, and were structured, then there would be no issues with this way of thinking. In the past, we've always seen the Straw Hat pirates going up insurmountable odds, where they've come into the arc as the underdogs. However, the end of Wano, and Egghead Island has become the turning point for the series, in regards to how Oda seems to be approaching the series.

At the end of Wano, the Straw Hats have been recognized as a full blown Yonko crew. It's asinine to believe that Oda is going to treat the Straw Hats from this point forward, in the same way he has treated them in the past. Not only does this not make sense from a readers point of view, but it also does not make sense from a narrative point of view, with in which how Yonko's are perceived within the story itself.

Now if you have paid attention throughout the story, then you would understand, that Top Tiers have been portrayed to stand at a relatively equal level towards each other. In some instances there is even times where a single top tier, can hold their own against two other top tiers, for a fixed amount of time. This isn't applied to any one single top tier, but is heavily implied that all Top Tiers are capable of doing something like this. For example, we have Shiki the Golden Lion, who was capable of fighting against Sengoku and Garp at the same time, until he ultimately lost, and in another instance we have Rayleigh, who inferred back on Sabaody that if he wasn't out of his prime, that he would be capable of helping out the Straw Hats, while at the same time fighting against Kizaru. There is also the matter, where Kizaru requested from Akainu that he be allowed to go and intercept Kaido and Big Mom, in order to stop them from forming an alliance. These aren't isolated instances, but rather a piece of the puzzle, of the story that Oda is trying to tell. Top Tiers don't fall easily, even when faced with the odds stacked against them.

With that being said, we will move back to Saturn and Kizaru. Like I said earlier, Oda has now had to change the formula of how he writes the Straw Hats, now that they have become a Yonko crew, and Luffy has achieved Top Tier status. First and foremost, what people fail understand, is that Kizaru has not been having a terrible showing at all. He has been fighting against another top tier, this entire time, and this is what people fail to see. The days are gone where Luffy is going to be going into a fight, and start off on the losing end. He has made it to the stage, where there isn't a person in the World who is going to dominate him right off the bat, like how the story has been structured in the past. It can't happen like that anymore, otherwise Oda will be going against his own set of rules that he has established.

Kizaru could not just come into this arc, and completely dominate, because he is not fighting against a Luffy who came into the arc at a lower level than himself. He is fighting against a Luffy who came into the arc at an equal level. The ending of the Kaido fight should have been more than enough for the fans to comprehend this. Luffy went from getting completely crushed by Kaido in the beginning, standing on equal footing with him at the end. This is where the misconception starts to take form.

People are so used to Top Tiers coming in and just demolishing everyone whose weaker than them, that it is stuck in their heads that if they aren't just wrecking everyone in site, then this is a bad showing on their part. That is completely false, because as I have already explained, Kizaru is not fighting against a weaker opponent, so Oda has to remove this sense of overbearing power from him, because it doesn't fit the narrative. Oda can't elevate the Straw Hats to the status of one of the highest powers in the World, and still treat them like they are a bunch of scrubs in the face of other Top Tiers. That would be piss poor writing.

With that being said, the same applies to Saturn. He also, can not come in, and just barrel straight through the Straw Hat crew either. Top Tier or not, he is up against a Yonko crew. And I can give a fuck all, what you power level junkies want to think, but ALL of the Straw Hat crew have gotten much stronger. This BS "Haha blocked by Sanji", or "can't kill Franky" etc.. garbage has to stop. It's like yall forget about Marineford, and how the WB Commanders were capable of fighting against Top Tiers. Yall are so stuck on your character wars, that you can't open your eyes and see just how far the Straw Hats have progressed as a whole. They have all gotten much stronger, and will not be steamrolled by Top Tiers, like they have in the past.

That brings me to my last point. Now that we've established that the Straw Hats are much stronger, and will no longer be the underdogs, how does Oda go about putting them at a disadvantage? Well, we've gotten our answer with KIzaru and Saturn. This is how Oda is stacking the odds against Luffy at the moment. Seeing as how it is not narratively possible for him to have one Top Tier put the Straw Hats into a back against the wall situation, and he needs to keep the odds in the villains favor, he has brought two Top Tiers into the mix. In any other series, this might seem like overkill, but in One Piece, Oda was smart about it, and has already established the narrative that one Top Tier can fight and hold off two top tiers for a fixed amount of time. Doing this, does not make Kizaru nor Saturn look bad, because either one of them would be able to do the same thing, if the roles were reversed.

It's time for all of you to take your nostalgia glasses off, and start reading the story from a logical standpoint. Gone are the days where the Straw Hats look like the underdogs from a power level standpoint. Your top tier faves will no longer have the dominating presence they once had, because they are no longer fighting against those who are beneath them. We are in EoS, and the Straw Hats are fast approaching being known as the Pirate King crew. It's time to accept it, move on, and enjoy how far our favorites have come.
Excellent analysis.

I'd add that it isn't Oda introducing something new but actually returning the story to the dynamics it had during East Blue (yes, the very beginning). None of his foes were superior to Luffy back then. At best they were equals, as seen with Arlong or Kireg (somewhat) or outright weaker (Buggy and Kuro). And while they weren't seen as huge players back then, the crew was still respected. Zoro name alone carried a lot of weight in East Blue.

It's basically whatw e are seeing now, the return of the "Luffy's the equal of his opponent" that had disappeared when they entered the Grand Line, as the crew had to discover the real level of the top pirates. Oda should do some more efforts to better convey it to the mid-weak groups of the Crew, but they are all way stronger than they were before Wano now, in theory.
 
#32
I was rereading the road to laughtale.

Absolutely nothing about Logia awakenings. I dunno if it's because Oda didn't want to spoil them.

Or maybe no such thing actually exists lol
 
#33
Excellent analysis.

I'd add that it isn't Oda introducing something new but actually returning the story to the dynamics it had during East Blue (yes, the very beginning). None of his foes were superior to Luffy back then. At best they were equals, as seen with Arlong or Kireg (somewhat) or outright weaker (Buggy and Kuro). And while they weren't seen as huge players back then, the crew was still respected. Zoro name alone carried a lot of weight in East Blue.

It's basically whatw e are seeing now, the return of the "Luffy's the equal of his opponent" that had disappeared when they entered the Grand Line, as the crew had to discover the real level of the top pirates. Oda should do some more efforts to better convey it to the mid-weak groups of the Crew, but they are all way stronger than they were before Wano now, in theory.
If only Oda moves from “in theory” to “in practice.” The other Strawhats need some love.
 
#34
I will say it is too early judge either of them for now. Both can show more of their feats but for now both have been underwhelming.

Light fruit has so much potential but Kizaru has hardly done anything new with it other than using clones which were taken care off instantly.

Saturn has been bigger let down. I honestly believed gorosei could be above Kaido but saturn seems more like a YC1+ level character to me.
 
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